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Posted: 12/19/2008 11:58:54 AM EDT
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I have always reloaded jacket bullets in my 40, but recently picked up some 165 gr. Berrys plated bullets. I know I need to treat them as lead bullets, but as I got to checking my manuals, I found that my books show no loads for lead / plated lead bullets in .40. My target velocity is 900 - 1000 fps or so.
My question is this: can I use data for jacketed bullets with the Berrys as long as I keep the loads light? Do jacketed bullets and lead bullets achieve the same velocity with the same charge? I've gotten good results with PowerPistol behind jacket bullets, do you have any recommendations for powder with plated bullets? TIA |
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I use Clays and Universal Powder. I use mid range charges, almost exactly between starting load and max load for my Berry's 180gr plated HP bullets and run them in my XD40 and KelTech Sub2000 carbine.
I've shot hundreds this way, later tonight when I go out to my garage I'll get my data book and see what specific charges I've used and edit this post with more detailed info. |
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I have always treated lead or lead plated the same as jacketed of the same weight – with a little common sense thrown in…
Weight may be the same but the bearing area may be different and that affects pressure. Start below mid range and work up. Unless you are dealing with Hard Cast the soft lead usually found in plated tend to skid when pushed. At that point accuracy will drop and you will get leading. I think you will be OK in the 900 – 1000fps range you mentioned. |
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Quoted:
I hate to burst your bubble but your common sense has let you down big time because most of what you stated above is wrong.
I have always treated lead or lead plated the same as jacketed of the same weight – with a little common sense thrown in… Weight may be the same but the bearing area may be different and that affects pressure. Start below mid range and work up. Unless you are dealing with Hard Cast the soft lead usually found in plated tend to skid when pushed. At that point accuracy will drop and you will get leading. I think you will be OK in the 900 – 1000fps range you mentioned. 1st - Every major supplier of plated bullets states in their websites to use reloading data for lead bullets if you can't find data specifically on plated because they use soft lead cores and thin plating so their bullets seal like lead bullets. 2nd - The plated bullets don't "...skid when pushed." nor do they cause leading because the copper jacket is between the lead and the barrel. That's why they are plated in the first place. 3rd - The manufactures all state that their plated bullets are good to at least 1,200fps. In truth, they are fine at speeds far exceeding 1,200fps. Rainier plated 110grn 30Carb bullets are tested to 2,100fps. How do I know all this. I asked the manufacturers, rather than 'parroting' internet BS you've heard from a friend of a friend. For all those who doubt my claims, contact Berry's, Rainier, etc., and ask them yourselves. The only caution those of us who shoot 10s of thousands of them have is don't over crimp them as you'll either loosen the bullet retention or cut through the plating. Finally, lest anyone be concerned about plated bullets performance they only have to look to arguably the best hollow point pistol bullets for proof. Speer Gold Dots are plated bullets made the same general way that Berry's and Rainier make theirs. |
| I was looking at some published IPSC loads using Rainier 165 plated bullets and Power Pistol powder. 6.0 grains was shown to go 960 fps. 6.8 grains produced 1021 fps. I've used both 165 Berry's and Rainiers bullet over 6.4 grains without problems in my Glock 35 and my son's Glock 24. Should be close to your target speed. Safety first, start low, work up slow, watch for pressure. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I hate to burst your bubble but your common sense has let you down big time because most of what you stated above is wrong.
I have always treated lead or lead plated the same as jacketed of the same weight – with a little common sense thrown in… Weight may be the same but the bearing area may be different and that affects pressure. Start below mid range and work up. Unless you are dealing with Hard Cast the soft lead usually found in plated tend to skid when pushed. At that point accuracy will drop and you will get leading. I think you will be OK in the 900 – 1000fps range you mentioned. 1st - Every major supplier of plated bullets states in their websites to use reloading data for lead bullets if you can't find data specifically on plated because they use soft lead cores and thin plating so their bullets seal like lead bullets. 2nd - The plated bullets don't "...skid when pushed." nor do they cause leading because the copper jacket is between the lead and the barrel. That's why they are plated in the first place. 3rd - The manufactures all state that their plated bullets are good to at least 1,200fps. In truth, they are fine at speeds far exceeding 1,200fps. Rainier plated 110grn 30Carb bullets are tested to 2,100fps. How do I know all this. I asked the manufacturers, rather than 'parroting' internet BS you've heard from a friend of a friend. For all those who doubt my claims, contact Berry's, Rainier, etc., and ask them yourselves. The only caution those of us who shoot 10s of thousands of them have is don't over crimp them as you'll either loosen the bullet retention or cut through the plating. Finally, lest anyone be concerned about plated bullets performance they only have to look to arguably the best hollow point pistol bullets for proof. Speer Gold Dots are plated bullets made the same general way that Berry's and Rainier make theirs. Steve: You are just parroting internet BS about reloading. Every manufacture warns to only use good factory ammo in their firearms! I know because I can and do read 
Joking aside, like you, I have been reloading for 40+ years. I cast much of my own and have tried about everything that has come down the pike. You should never assume that you are the only one with any experience around here. I dabbled briefly in platted when the 10mm first came out. Recovered bullets showed exposed lead in the grooves and that gray stuff clinging to my barrel sure seemed like lead??? Now my own linotype cast bullets don't lead even at the same 1200 – 1300 fps I pushed the platted to. Skidding? Not a smack you in the face conclusion. Some I recovered seemed to show an indication of it but I didn't bring them home to examine and it could have been target/backstop damage. Also the group size there jumped up an inch or 2. Same bullet loaded in my 40 S&W did not lead, nor did it show exposed lead. Of course I cannot approach the velocity I was after from my 10mm. So dispute you great wisdom, my bubble is intact and will remain so… |
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Quoted:
So what are you guys running for loads with these plated bullets in the 40? Anyone using w231? I had some from precision bullets I loaded a few years ago but I think I was pushing them to fast because the coating really built up in my barrel. I have been loading Berry's Preferred 180gr with 4.8gr of W231 and CCI SP with no problems out of a Beretta Brigadier 96. I have not seen any leading in the barrel yet. These are my results only, your results can and probably will vary. |
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There are some good recipes for the Barry's Plated Bullets in this thread:
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=205 |
| I use Universal with Berry's bullets in multiple calibers. I use the minimum/starting load for FMJ or as close as I can get with the Lee Auto Disk. Starting load for FMJ is 5Gr of universal and I am using 5.2Gr with Berry's 180Gr bullets for my .40 reloads. Using the information from Hodgdon using the minimum/starting FMJ loads with plated bullets works well for me. I reload .380, 9mm, 9mm Largo, .40, and .45 using either Berry's or Rainier bullets. I use the Lee factory crimp die and had to play with the amount of crimp used for each caliber to get complete powder burn. I found that some calibers require a little more crimp than others but haven't had any problems with too much crimp. |
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Jacketed data for the .40 S&W will work just fine for Berry's plated bullets. I would try the same recipe that works in your previous loads. Power Pistol would be a great choice.
You just want to keep plated bullets basically at hard-cast lead bullet velocities - that is why velocity is an issue with them. The .40 isn't fast enough to cause any problems with lead or plated. |
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Quoted:
Interesting results. I use Power Pistol powder in my 6" G20L and have pushed 165grn Rainier bullets to as high as 1,503fps and 180grn Rainiers to 1,423 with no indication of cutting in the recovered bullets. In addition, I use H110 to shoot 110grn Rainier 30 cal bullets in my M1 Carbine at a 'modest' 1,875fps (to go easy on the 65yr old action), again with no issues in recovered bullets.
Quoted:
Quoted:
I hate to burst your bubble but your common sense has let you down big time because most of what you stated above is wrong.
I have always treated lead or lead plated the same as jacketed of the same weight – with a little common sense thrown in… Weight may be the same but the bearing area may be different and that affects pressure. Start below mid range and work up. Unless you are dealing with Hard Cast the soft lead usually found in plated tend to skid when pushed. At that point accuracy will drop and you will get leading. I think you will be OK in the 900 – 1000fps range you mentioned. 1st - Every major supplier of plated bullets states in their websites to use reloading data for lead bullets if you can't find data specifically on plated because they use soft lead cores and thin plating so their bullets seal like lead bullets. 2nd - The plated bullets don't "...skid when pushed." nor do they cause leading because the copper jacket is between the lead and the barrel. That's why they are plated in the first place. 3rd - The manufactures all state that their plated bullets are good to at least 1,200fps. In truth, they are fine at speeds far exceeding 1,200fps. Rainier plated 110grn 30Carb bullets are tested to 2,100fps. How do I know all this. I asked the manufacturers, rather than 'parroting' internet BS you've heard from a friend of a friend. For all those who doubt my claims, contact Berry's, Rainier, etc., and ask them yourselves. The only caution those of us who shoot 10s of thousands of them have is don't over crimp them as you'll either loosen the bullet retention or cut through the plating. Finally, lest anyone be concerned about plated bullets performance they only have to look to arguably the best hollow point pistol bullets for proof. Speer Gold Dots are plated bullets made the same general way that Berry's and Rainier make theirs. Steve: You are just parroting internet BS about reloading. Every manufacture warns to only use good factory ammo in their firearms! I know because I can and do read
Joking aside, like you, I have been reloading for 40+ years. I cast much of my own and have tried about everything that has come down the pike. You should never assume that you are the only one with any experience around here. I dabbled briefly in platted when the 10mm first came out. Recovered bullets showed exposed lead in the grooves and that gray stuff clinging to my barrel sure seemed like lead??? Now my own linotype cast bullets don't lead even at the same 1200 – 1300 fps I pushed the platted to. Skidding? Not a smack you in the face conclusion. Some I recovered seemed to show an indication of it but I didn't bring them home to examine and it could have been target/backstop damage. Also the group size there jumped up an inch or 2. Same bullet loaded in my 40 S&W did not lead, nor did it show exposed lead. Of course I cannot approach the velocity I was after from my 10mm. So dispute you great wisdom, my bubble is intact and will remain so… There is no possible way one can shoot even hardcast lead at those velocities and not get leading. As for your 'skidding' issue; all bullets 'skid' a bit as they are forced into the rifling until they are rotating at the twist rate. Because plated bullets have softer cores that FMJ, they 'skid' much less than FMJs. In fact as their copper plating is only in the 0.006" - 0.010" thick range, they perform very much like lead and obturate at roughly the same pressure as lead bullets. The FMJ, with it's much thicker and harder jacket needs 6 - 8 times the pressure to obturate which means that they will 'skid' for a bit longer entering the rifling until the chamber pressure is sufficient to force them into the rifling. Quoted:
Absolutely false and a very, very bad idea, especially in max or near max loads!
Jacketed data for the .40 S&W will work just fine for Berry's plated bullets. I would try the same recipe that works in your previous loads. Power Pistol would be a great choice. You just want to keep plated bullets basically at hard-cast lead bullet velocities - that is why velocity is an issue with them. The .40 isn't fast enough to cause any problems with lead or plated. As I explained above, plated bullets should be treated as lead when developing loads. Because they seal quicker, they can cause your peak chamber pressure to rise too high. As 40sw and 9mm are both high pressure rounds (35,000psi per SAAMI), you don't have a lot of room to screw around with in max loads. |
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Quoted:
That is why you're staying safe. The issue with jacketed load info is when you try to load to the max for jacketed when you're using plated bullets. You spike the peak pressure that way and things can get dicey in a big hurry.
I'm going to tag this, I've been loading plated .40 bullets to the minimum suggested load for jacketed bullets. So far it's worked out pretty well, but obviously I'd like to learn more about it. |
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Please Note: This is a discussion and I welcome response. It is not some attack on COSteve as I respect his experience and contributions.
Steve: You are throwing out a lot of things as though they are fact. But when I examine it I don't come to the same conclusions… I will leave 'skidding issue' alone – I can neither prove or disprove it, but might take it up at a latter time. The vast majority of Lead Reloading data is based on the soft swaged bullets. The velocity must be held down to reduce leading. But depending on who's book you look at, you get differing results. Going into my older Lyman 45th Edition I find just the opposite of what you see in other reloading manuals. Cast bullets there are delivering higher velocities at equal or greater loads than same weight Jacketed bullets… Lyman No 2 alloy is a good compromise alloy that is: not "hard cast", not "soft". The 45th doesn't have .40 S&W but comparisons of .38 Special, 9mm demonstrate the trend and I can mix in some Hornady data as well. .38 Special 158gr: (Lyman 6" bbl)
Cast 5.4Gr Unique = 1002fps 38 Special 158gr: (Hornady 4" bbl)
Lead 4.2Gr Unique = 800fps 9mm 124gr: (Lyman 4" bbl)
121Gr Cast 6.0Gr Unique = 1243fps 9mm 124gr: (Hornady 4" bbl)
Lead 5.0Gr Unique = 1100fps (Same!) I can do this all day but you get the idea… Leaving Lyman alone and looking at Hornady, and specifically the comparison of Lead and JHP in 40 S&W we get another eye opener! 40 S&W 180gr: (Hornady 4" bbl)
Lead 7.6Gr AA5 = 1000ps Now the original question was, For Plated bullets: can we use Jacketed data or stick to Lead data??? Steve and others, (to include plated bullet makers themselves!) say you must (should) stick to Lead data. I started by saying Jacketed would be OK based on my experience. After looking at the data available, I would say Absolutely - use Either but of course start low and work up! But that is prudent advice for any realoader. I am sure if I did deeper I will find several exceptions to examples I have shown. But these 2 were at my fingertips and I simply opened the books to see. There was no effort or intent to produce halo answers that fit my preconceptions. (actually I was surprised by the results because I expected it be an inconclusive draw or result in egg on my face) And of course bullets are not bullets!!! Plated bullets are neither the same as Jacketed nor are they the same as Lead! They are close to both but as any prudent reloader knows, approach with caution and assume NOTHING. |
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Have you guys ever had problems with the plating peeling on your Berry's 40's. When I first started shooting USPSA matches I was reloading using Berry's and out of my XD-40 I was having a real problem with the plating coming off the bullets. If I stayed below major power factor (below 917fps with 40cal 180gr bullets) they did OK but when I got much over 900fps the plating started peeling off the bullets and accuracy started to suffer.
The picture below show examples of bullet holes from where the plating was peeling off. 
I have heard this problem was likely cases by the sharper corners on the rifling that the XD barrels had. That said I had the same problem in my S&W 610 and Berry's bullets although it happened a lot less often. I have since switch to Montana Gold for a few years when I could get them cheap through my club and lately I have been using Precision Delta although I find the Montana Gold a much better bullet than the Precision Delta. Rambling mcb |
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