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Posted: 6/17/2011 10:24:16 AM EDT
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Can those in the know share with us the pros and cons of the various grades of steel used in the production of knives, swords, axes and other bladed weapons? I've seen swords listed as using everything from "1055 Carbon" to 5160 steel. Looking to fill in the gaps in my knowledge on this topic. Much obliged.  |
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Those two are similar. For "regular" tool steel starting with 10 the last two numbers are the amount of carbon. 1095 is about .95% carbon, 1060 has about .60%. The higher the carbon content, the harder the blade can be made. For a sword or hatchet though the 1060 "spring steel" is often a better choice because it can handle the impact and shock better without breaking or chipping.
5160 also has about .60% carbon content and is about the same. The 51 means it has certain other elements alloyed into it. It's part of the AISI or SAE steel grading. Three digit steels that start with a 4 like 416, 420, 440A, 440C are stainless. You can find a lot about steels if you spend a few hours with Bing or Google, and by checking out Bladeforums.com. |
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Awesome, Unicorn! That makes a lot more sense to me now. I've always just tried to memorize the various steels and what their appropriate martial use would be. Knowing the jangi of the punjabi when it comes to the "code" (last two letters being carbon content, etc.) is going to make my life a lot easier! You da' man. |
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This page has always been a helpful and quick reference for me:
http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml |
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Awesome, Unicorn! That makes a lot more sense to me now. I've always just tried to memorize the various steels and what their appropriate martial use would be. Knowing the jangi of the punjabi when it comes to the "code" (last two letters being carbon content, etc.) is going to make my life a lot easier! You da' man. Unfortunately not all steels follow the above mentioned info. You steels from companies like Hitachi and Crucible (amongst others) with names like SV35N SV30 CPM154 154CM Elmax Vanax-35 ZDP189 D2 M2 CPMD2 The list goes on and on. There are so many that you are stuck either 1)looking up each one you need info on 2) doing lots of research beforehand so that you have some idea about all of the ones used in blades. I prescribed to the second approach, mainly because its very interesting to me. I'm no metallurgist/expert or anything, but I could probably talk circles around 99% of people on cutlery steels 
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Awesome, Unicorn! That makes a lot more sense to me now. I've always just tried to memorize the various steels and what their appropriate martial use would be. Knowing the jangi of the punjabi when it comes to the "code" (last two letters being carbon content, etc.) is going to make my life a lot easier! You da' man. Unfortunately not all steels follow the above mentioned info. You steels from companies like Hitachi and Crucible (amongst others) with names like SV35N S35VN SV30 S30V CPM154 154CM Elmax Vanax-35 ZDP189 D2 M2 CPMD2 The list goes on and on. There are so many that you are stuck either 1)looking up each one you need info on 2) doing lots of research beforehand so that you have some idea about all of the ones used in blades. I prescribed to the second approach, mainly because its very interesting to me. I'm no metallurgist/expert or anything, but I could probably talk circles around 99% of people on cutlery steels Slightly fixed for ya'. But yes you're correct, lots of research is required. What really sucks is when you start to add in all the old formulas that are being made with powdered metal technology. You nailed it with D2 and CPM D2, and 154CM and CPM154CM. That shit just makes it more confusing to someone just looking for a knife. And then take into account all the different mills making the same steel formulations and calling it their own terms and it almost to the point that we need a grid to keep all this shit straight. I spend a heathy dose of time each week to researching steels. It's kinda a pain in the ass. |
| I've been playing with the idea of getting some S35VN, but I hate S30V so much that I just can't get excited about it. I hate S30V so much, I just took my Zero Tolerance 0300 apart and I', going to make a new blade and spacer for it. The blade is gonna be 1/4" thick 1095. |
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I've been playing with the idea of getting some S35VN, but I hate S30V so much that I just can't get excited about it. I hate S30V so much, I just took my Zero Tolerance 0300 apart and I', going to make a new blade and spacer for it. The blade is gonna be 1/4" thick 1095. That should be pretty nice. I'm not a huge fan of S30V. I don't HATE it, but its not something I seek out. I mainly wanted a new toy, and it just happened to be in S35VN I'm a big fan of Elmax, 1095, D2, and the Swamp Rat SR101. (its a modified 5160 or 52100 or something, I forget exactly) |
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Frack. Back to square one. Grrrrr... Oh, did we mention heat treat matters? something like 1095 can be heat treated in a way suitable for something like a machete where it is tough and impact resistant but doesn't hold a razor edge for long....or run very hard suitable for a pocket folder with high wear resistance, but brittle against impacts. Sorry pal
Seriously though, spend some time over at Bladeforums, you'll find much of what you need. |
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I've been playing with the idea of getting some S35VN, but I hate S30V so much that I just can't get excited about it. I hate S30V so much, I just took my Zero Tolerance 0300 apart and I', going to make a new blade and spacer for it. The blade is gonna be 1/4" thick 1095. I'm just curious as to why s30v is your enemy? My only complaint with the stuff is that it doesn't hold a hair popping edge long, but it does hold a decent workable edge for awhile once that initial is gone. |
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I've been playing with the idea of getting some S35VN, but I hate S30V so much that I just can't get excited about it. I hate S30V so much, I just took my Zero Tolerance 0300 apart and I', going to make a new blade and spacer for it. The blade is gonna be 1/4" thick 1095. I'm just curious as to why s30v is your enemy? My only complaint with the stuff is that it doesn't hold a hair popping edge long, but it does hold a decent workable edge for awhile once that initial is gone. S30V has chipping issues. That's the reason S35VN was developed, it was meant as the replacement for S30V. The only real way to make a hard use knife out of S30V without having the chipping problem is to make it a sharpened pry bar with a really thick edge. The drawback is they tend to not be too terribly sharp or slicy. My ZT 0300 has chipped pruning my wife's roses. I've had 2 and they've both done the same thing. I actually has to regrind the edge to almost 25 degrees per side to get it to the point that it doesn't chip or roll. If you are looking for a knife made from a high end powdered steel, look at Elmax or CPM154CM. I'm particularly horny for the Elmax right now. The prototype I've been putting through the paces has been nothing short of astonishing. |
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One of my own. Here's a link to a post here of a little review of one of my SEER Mk V's made in Elamax
SEER Elmax Mk V |
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One of my own. Here's a link to a post here of a little review of one of my SEER Mk V's made in Elamax SEER Elmax Mk V Oh great something else to possibly drain my wallet! Some nice looking blades sir. |
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Building tooling to cut metal gave me a lot of insight into the tool steels, D2 especially. I can't for the life of me figure out why these exotic (to me) steels are considered an improvement over D2 for a knife blade. For wear resistance, hardness, as well as durability, all of the SV30, AUS8, 154CM knives I've purchased have failed to impress upon me any great advantage to properly heat treated D2. (other than being stainless in some cases) We had some CPM on the shelf, but I rarely worked with it so I don't really know anything about it.
For me, give me a D2 blade for something meant to be a cutting tool, and 1095 for something meant to be a hacking tool, and everything else seems to me, to be premium price for exotic sounding designations. |
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Frack. Back to square one. Grrrrr... Oh, did we mention heat treat matters? something like 1095 can be heat treated in a way suitable for something like a machete where it is tough and impact resistant but doesn't hold a razor edge for long....or run very hard suitable for a pocket folder with high wear resistance, but brittle against impacts. Sorry pal
Seriously though, spend some time over at Bladeforums, you'll find much of what you need. Or it can be heat treated poorly and be a piece of overpriced junk. hehe. It's all in the HT. I use 1080 these days for what I make, specifically because I can use relatively basic equipment and give a very good HT, getting better results than the less than ideal (consistent) results I can do with 1095. I could probably sell more with 1095, but my consistency of the HT would suffer and I'd rather not have folks calling me to say the knife won't hold an edge or snapped when they dropped it on a wood floor. If you're looking at swords, 1055, 5160, even as high as 1080 on some. I would be nervous using any sword that was stainless. It can be done but if they don't nail the HT it's going to be a big problem. 1055-1080 and 5160 are all pretty forgiving and very tough while still taking a good edge. At some point harder is NOT better. Even if it doesn't come at the expense of being brittle, at some point you have to sharpen it. For the above poster, D2 if you want carbon steel and some corrosion protection. In stainless, ATS34/154CM or CPM154. There are more expensive options, but that'll work just fine. Heck, in the real world, 440C works just fine for most purposes (has to be C, not A or B) but we all like to play with fancier toys. |
| I don't have any provision for direct temp control to maintain a steady temp for a soak. To get a GOOD ht on 1095 and most other complex steels you need at least a few minutes steady soak at a known temp. You don't need that with 1080. Bring it to temp and make sure it's even, quench. The specific hardware is a small propane powered forge. Not a "one brick" type of thing, but not so far advanced from it either. No electronics. They're on my list, RIGHT after a 2x72 grinder. A PID controller and the hardware to manage the burner through it is going to be very nice. |
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for fixed blade knives with blades between 3'' and 7'' what would a good all around steel be? Until someone shows me a reason (aside from corrosion resistance) that D2 is inferior to any of the exotics I will consider it preferable to anything, it makes a spectacular all around knife steel. You can make it very hard, 60RC, for a knife that will do nothing but cut, or draw it back further to 52-55 RC for a knife that may cut and chop and pry on things. It's extremely wear resistant. It's even fairly resistant to corrosion compared to a lot of other carbon steels. It's hard to sharpen. That's it's biggest draw back. All that wear resistance that you see as a benefit when you're cutting through tallow and hair and bone, is a draw back when you're on the whetstone. Anyone who has ground a big die block with an aluminum oxide wheel instead of a CBN knows what I'm talking about. Diamond sharpeners mitigate this somewhat. I still think 1050-1095 makes the best, all around, large fixed blade knife. It's easy to work with, easy to heat treat, easy to sharpen. Lawnmower blades, hay cutting/ag equipment, all the blades used for this kind of work tend to be made from these alloys. It's cheap and does the job. A2 is even easier to work with than D2, offers very similar performance, and is less expensive. Easy to sharpen. I'd like to see someone make a sword from S7 some time. One job I had, I made press pins that were used to drive core pins out of die cast parts. If I made them from A2, they'd break. If I drew the A2 back to the point where they wouldn't break, they would bend. I started making them from S7 and they lasted 6x longer than the A2 pins @ the RC levels the A2 would break. It's extremely shock resistant. |
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I don't have any provision for direct temp control to maintain a steady temp for a soak. To get a GOOD ht on 1095 and most other complex steels you need at least a few minutes steady soak at a known temp. You don't need that with 1080. Bring it to temp and make sure it's even, quench. The specific hardware is a small propane powered forge. Not a "one brick" type of thing, but not so far advanced from it either. No electronics. They're on my list, RIGHT after a 2x72 grinder. A PID controller and the hardware to manage the burner through it is going to be very nice. Gotcha. Couldn't you put a thermocouple in your forge to give you accurate temps? Or do you have hot/cool spots inside your forge? As for your 2x72, stay tuned, I should have a step by step of my home made one finished in the next few weeks. |
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I don't have any provision for direct temp control to maintain a steady temp for a soak. To get a GOOD ht on 1095 and most other complex steels you need at least a few minutes steady soak at a known temp. You don't need that with 1080. Bring it to temp and make sure it's even, quench. The specific hardware is a small propane powered forge. Not a "one brick" type of thing, but not so far advanced from it either. No electronics. They're on my list, RIGHT after a 2x72 grinder. A PID controller and the hardware to manage the burner through it is going to be very nice. Gotcha. Couldn't you put a thermocouple in your forge to give you accurate temps? Or do you have hot/cool spots inside your forge? Bit of both, I've got the hot/cool spots mostly dealt with but the cost to put JUST a thermocouple and readout in is almost the same as the PID and thermocouple, leaving just the control portion to add later. I'll probably suck it up and do that much before the grinder though, just to make life easier with the 1080 and see how well I can balance it by hand. I don't mind keeping the blade moving to help keep the steel at an even temp so it's just knowing exactly where I'm at and keeping it there that's a pain. I want to start doing some stainless and am in a constant debate with myself about just skipping the forge upgrade and getting an electric HT oven. Just for the general group here, I was exaggerating the results I'd get on 1095, if I did exactly what I do with 1080 I'd get something that ranged from slightly worse than my 1080 to slightly better, still decent either way. What I would NOT get is properly heat treated 1095, which is what my customer would expect. Properly done 1080 is more consistent than less than correct HT on 1095 and almost as good as correctly done 1095. Not quite, but most people will never know the difference even with two otherwise identical knives side by side used exactly the same. |
| If you get an electric, stainless will be a breeze. I made a lot of tooling from 440V (contamination controlled manufacturing environment, every tool that could be made from stainless, was made from stainless), and in an electric furnace it's extremely simple. Tool wrap, heat, soak, air quench, temper, air quench, finish grind. No guess work or black magic involved. |
| We could probably collect several hundred pages about blade steel with a google search and that would put us well within the envelope of dimishing return. In two sentences: Carbon steels, with 01 and D2 leading the pack are very fine blade making steels and that is why Randall and Dozier use them (almost) exclusively. The only advantage that stainless has over carbon steel is its ability to rust less. If corrosion is not a concern, go with 01 or D2 tool steel. I make working knives, my primary concern is how the tool functions and my last concern is how it looks. Thanks for asking a very good question and now you have my 2 cents worth;-) |
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If you get an electric, stainless will be a breeze. I made a lot of tooling from 440V (contamination controlled manufacturing environment, every tool that could be made from stainless, was made from stainless), and in an electric furnace it's extremely simple. Tool wrap, heat, soak, air quench, temper, air quench, finish grind. No guess work or black magic involved. Yup, I've got a few pieces of ats34 to play with and will send them out to Peters or whomever is doing the HT at Buck these days now that Paul Bros retired. After that though, gotta decide if it's worth the investment now or if I should keep sending out batches for a while. I have to agree with the above post though, if appearance or sterilization is not a concern, carbon steels are generally superior to stainless in every other category that matters for knives. D2's hard to beat, particularly the CPM version. O1 gets lots of use, particularly because it is easily purchased flat ground, which makes life a lot easier for a knife maker. Any of the popular carbon steels will do well though, I'd worry more about the overall quality and design than the specific steel. Swords obviously have very different needs than regular knives, even fairly large bowies. It depends on the style sword, but you generally do not want a particularly hard blade. Even if you have a hard core and soft outer layer to prevent it from breaking in half you will still destroy the edge quickly in any kind of actual use. Hard and soft being relative of course, even a "soft" steel in this context is still a lot harder than mild steel. |
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I'd like to see someone make a sword from S7 some time. One job I had, I made press pins that were used to drive core pins out of die cast parts. If I made them from A2, they'd break. If I drew the A2 back to the point where they wouldn't break, they would bend. I started making them from S7 and they lasted 6x longer than the A2 pins @ the RC levels the A2 would break. It's extremely shock resistant. The Scrap Yard Scrapizashi was done in SR-77 which is their "modified S7." Unfortunately, it just sold out if you were wanting to buy one. |
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Quoted: That is the key with s30v. Too high a RC, and it's brittle and chips. Paul Bos apparently got the HT right, as I've never heard a single complaint about s30v that was heat treated by him. Benchmade's early s30v had chipping issues until they backed off the RC a touch. Now they don't have issues with chipping and it can take a 30deg inclusive edge without problems. I'm not impressed with Gerber's s30v, however, as the Freeman fixed blade I have in s30v will roll fairly easily. It does, however stay sharp for quite a while. I was able to process 3 deer from field to freezer before I needed to sharpen it again on my Sharpmaker.Quoted: The comments about S30V are surprising. I have been drooling over a Zero Tolerance 0300ST, but now I'm not so sure. I haven't had any problems with kershaws S30V, some makers treat it too hard and it gets brittle. |
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One of my own. Here's a link to a post here of a little review of one of my SEER Mk V's made in Elamax SEER Elmax Mk V Timberwolf.....try to get some N690 Cobalt Vanadium stainless....sweet stuff to work with.....cheap too. It is between BG10 and 440C in alloy.....  .
They use the older alloy carbon steels for swords because that is what you need with them for what you are doing. Matching use to alloy is why they use those materials. ANY STEEL above 0.50 % Carbon can be used for a good blade as long as it doesn't (usually) go over 1.75%. Then it gets tricky and can get 'ballistically brittle'(ask me about that sometime) during quench. Care must be taken. By all means experiment and purchase more material than you need (stuff happens) so that you can remake it. |
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