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Posted: 10/2/2009 8:20:54 PM EDT
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Do you have a properly designed temperature monitored controlled annealing setup. (I don't)
Or when you anneal do you just chuck up the cases in a deep well socket and turn it over a map gas torch till "it looks right"? (how I do it) I'm not sure how imprecise annealing might affect case longevity.... I don't have the money to afford a proper annealing setup, but I wonder if my imprecise approach to annealing is doing any good or any harm..... Any thoughts? |
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I kicked the idea around last week a bit.
I thought about pulling out the plasma cutter and wire welder and putting together a rig that would the the whole rotating bit. I even annealed a few rounds and did some little tests. I did do some annealing when drawing some 50 BMG cases down to 416 Barrett. What I did find is it doesn't take a lot to make the brass so soft it will collapse ...... With brass being fairly cheap and easily attainable I cannot justify spending the time and mess of doing that to all the cases I shoot. Maybe after 4-6 reloads I will hit with the torch once, but I have so much brass ... that I would rather be out shooting than messing with all of them. Personally I think using a good sizing lube is one of the most critical parts to resizing brass ... that and having it clean. Using Unique wax it has made sizing quite easy and I have had no problems with the brass so far. |
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Quoted:
Do you have a properly designed temperature monitored controlled annealing setup. (I don't) Or when you anneal do you just chuck up the cases in a deep well socket and turn it over a map gas torch till "it looks right"? (how I do it) I'm not sure how imprecise annealing might affect case longevity.... I don't have the money to afford a proper annealing setup, but I wonder if my imprecise approach to annealing is doing any good or any harm..... Any thoughts? I anneal my expensive brass EVERY firing. By expensive brass I mean 338 Lapua and 50 BMG. I don't use anything super precise other than doing it the same everytime. I use a drill, clamped to my loading bench with the chuck pointed up. I chuck a drill to socket adapter and then put a deep socket on the adapter that the brass will fit in. I wire the trigger on the drill so that it turns a continuous 100 +/- RPM. Exact RPM doesn't matter. You just want it to turn quick enough that the sides will be uniform. I then drop in each case and anneal with a MAPP torch until the brass BARELY turns red. I like to carry the anneal stain about 1/4" beyond the shoulder of the case. You can't really over-anneal unless you carry the stain beyond 1" below the shoulder. You just don't want to anneal the casehead because it needs to STAY hard. Annealing is making the molecules random. You can't make the case neck TOO random. Random is random. The only thing you can do if you overheat the neck is stain it BLACK...essentially oxidizing the outer layer of metal. This doesn't hurt anything...it just looks like crap. If you are getting BLACK necks, turn off the heat a little sooner. Annealing is really very simple and you don't need many tools to do it. Folks get all paranoid about it but it really isn't that big of a deal. I can anneal a match lot of 60 rounds of brass in about 30 minutes, including setup. -David Edgewood, NM |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a properly designed temperature monitored controlled annealing setup. (I don't) Or when you anneal do you just chuck up the cases in a deep well socket and turn it over a map gas torch till "it looks right"? (how I do it) I'm not sure how imprecise annealing might affect case longevity.... I don't have the money to afford a proper annealing setup, but I wonder if my imprecise approach to annealing is doing any good or any harm..... Any thoughts? I anneal my expensive brass EVERY firing. By expensive brass I mean 338 Lapua and 50 BMG. I don't use anything super precise other than doing it the same everytime. I use a drill, clamped to my loading bench with the chuck pointed up. I chuck a drill to socket adapter and then put a deep socket on the adapter that the brass will fit in. I wire the trigger on the drill so that it turns a continuous 100 +/- RPM. Exact RPM doesn't matter. You just want it to turn quick enough that the sides will be uniform. I then drop in each case and anneal with a MAPP torch until the brass BARELY turns red. I like to carry the anneal stain about 1/4" beyond the shoulder of the case. You can't really over-anneal unless you carry the stain beyond 1" below the shoulder. You just don't want to anneal the casehead because it needs to STAY hard. Annealing is making the molecules random. You can't make the case neck TOO random. Random is random. The only thing you can do if you overheat the neck is stain it BLACK...essentially oxidizing the outer layer of metal. This doesn't hurt anything...it just looks like crap. If you are getting BLACK necks, turn off the heat a little sooner. Annealing is really very simple and you don't need many tools to do it. Folks get all paranoid about it but it really isn't that big of a deal. I can anneal a match lot of 60 rounds of brass in about 30 minutes, including setup. -David Edgewood, NM Thanks David. That sounds almost exactly like what I do. I'm not heating to quite the same temp as you do, I'm backing off the heat once the metal starts turning that "darker brown" color. You can just barely see the temp line from the depth I was seating it in the deep well socket in this cartridge I annealed before reloading. I don't think I'm heating the cartridge to close to the base but I wouldn't want to go any lower.... 
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Annealing is one of quickest easiest steps in the reloading process for me. My method - 1.Small table drill press and chuck up a 1/2 inch plumbing pipe cleaning brush of which I have cut the handle off. Cost is $2.50 and will last a few hundred rounds or more! 2. Turn press on and leave it on what ever lowest speed you have 3. Slide brass on brush with gloved left hand and with right hand hit my Mapp torch with a quick 8 count, centered on neck about 1 inch away. 4. Remove brass and stand it up on counter to evenly cool! 4. Repeat process So easy, so cheap, so FAST and so consistent 
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I'm only on the 5th reloading of my TZZ 94 and no problems yet. Hard to tell on accuracy because since I developed the loads, i've only shot my 50 at 1000.
Lapua accuracy results are really good. Brass has been fired 4 times, annealed everytime, and with no other special case prep, the gun consistenly groups 0.5" center to center at 100 or better when you don't let it get hot...sometimes as good as 0.34"at 100 yards. About 3 weeks ago, I put 3 rounds into 0.5" OUTSIDE TO OUTSIDE at 180 yards with the 338 Lapua when I was checking the zero for a Pronghorn hunt. I only shot the 3 rounds because I wanted to save the other 15 for the hunt. Annealing really works, in my opinion. Lots of the other crap we do is snakeoil but i've proven to myself that annealing works...both for accuracy and for case longevity. Good friend had 20 firings on annealed-every-firing 50 BMG TZZ brass before the caseheads started to separate. And this guy is running 800's with 250 grains of VV20N29 (which is WAY too hot for most guns). -David Edgewood, NM |
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Annealing really works, in my opinion. Lots of the other crap we do is snakeoil but i've proven to myself that annealing works...both for accuracy and for case longevity. -David Edgewood, NM David, From reading the "50 Cal" forum for about a year now, I've come to recongnize your advice as very helpful. Anytime I see a posting with your picture next to it, I know that it will contain rational, insightful comments. Other folks are also very honest and helpful, but your postings are always welcomed by me. Thanks! 
Now... stupid question time. At what point in the process should a case be annealed? Before resizing or after? I plan on just neck sizing my 50 BMG brass, so hopefully that and annealing will extend the life considerably. |
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You might find this article helpful.
The Art and Science of Annealing |
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I use a Lee lead pot, filled with pure lead at about 850 degrees. Have some case lube on the outside of the neck and inside and the fired primer still in place. Dunk (technical term you know) the case neck in for a count of 5, take it out and tap againt the side of the pot to get rid of any lead that might try and stick and drop them in a cardboard box to cool. I have heard some dip the case neck in powdered graphite first, to keep lead from adhereing because the case lube burns off and smells a bit.
You have a controlled temperature and time, so the results are fairly uniform. I like it better than the torch method, where I chucked a variable speed drill in a vise, with a brass rod chucked in place, slipped the case over the spinning rod and put the propane torch on the neck for a few seconds, remove torch, then grab case off and drop in box. |
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Good friend had 20 firings on annealed-every-firing 50 BMG TZZ brass before the caseheads started to separate. And this guy is running 800's with 250 grains of VV20N29 (which is WAY too hot for most guns). -David Edgewood, NM WOW! From what I've read, 20 firings before casehead separation with that kind of load is pretty amazing. I'm probably revealing my noobness here, but what is the relationship between annealing the neck and casehead separation? Does annealing the neck/shoulder reduce the amount of "stretch" the case undergoes at the head? |
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Been gone this weekend down to Corona, NM at a friend's ranch. No internet.
1. As KD185 says, anneal PRIOR to sizing. What I do is polish my brass overnight in a vibratory tumbler. Then I anneal. Clean, shiny brass is easier to detect the color change on. 2. I'll try to get a picture for you soon. I need to anneal some 338 Lapua pretty quick so i'll try and post a picture of that. None of my recenly annealed 50 BMG brass has the anneal marks since I tumble overnight after I size the brass to remove the Imperial Sizing Wax (too lazy to wipe them). 3. The annealing didn't have anything to do with the casehead separation. It just kept the necks from splitting for 20 firings. Minimal sizing, ie neck or partial FL sizing delays casehead separtions but eventually, a case will fail anyway. My point in mentioning the 20 firings with a heafty charge of VV20N29 was that the annealing kept the necks from splitting after MANY firnings. -David Edgewood, NM |
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Quoted:
I use a Lee lead pot, filled with pure lead at about 850 degrees. Have some case lube on the outside of the neck and inside and the fired primer still in place. Dunk (technical term you know) the case neck in for a count of 5, take it out and tap againt the side of the pot to get rid of any lead that might try and stick and drop them in a cardboard box to cool. I have heard some dip the case neck in powdered graphite first, to keep lead from adhereing because the case lube burns off and smells a bit. You have a controlled temperature and time, so the results are fairly uniform. I like it better than the torch method, where I chucked a variable speed drill in a vise, with a brass rod chucked in place, slipped the case over the spinning rod and put the propane torch on the neck for a few seconds, remove torch, then grab case off and drop in box. You are the FIRST person I have heard that actually uses the LEAD-DUNK method of annealing. I've read about it for years in various reloading books but never actually heard of anyone that did it that way. I would think the main problem would the lead soldering itself to the brass. You don't have a problem with that? Tapping the case on side of the pot prevents it? Interesting. -David Edgewood, NM |
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The lube/residue keeps it from sticking. If I start before the lead gets really hot, I might get a ring of lead on the neck, but I just have a rag to grab it and it comes right off. Doing this with nickle plated cases.
Like the idea of using the socket to hold the brass. Might have to try that when I shoot my non-nickled brass and see how it works. Just have the torch stationary and hold onto the driver/drill then dump the case in a box, to cool. All other cases, I have an annealing machine, that a guy I knew, built, years ago. |
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