Armory Sponsor
Posted: 9/16/2012 2:41:20 PM EDT
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I have been looking for leads on one. I saw one on GB but the guy selling it will not provide info or anything ..
So, I am looking for the above. Honest leads respected. bty, I understand the transfers, etc. and I will do nothing less. Thanks |
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Check here:Subguns
Or here: Sturm Probably the best places to find transferable MG's. Miniuzi.com has a pretty good script search for MG's also. |
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Check our Dennis Todd,
I was at a show a few weeks ago & he had a few A1's that came from the State of Tenn DOC Dr. Dennis A. Todd Specialties: Class 3 and DDs 239 Baltimore Pike Springfield, PA 19064 Phone: (610) 543-7300 FAX: (610) 543-7909 E-mail: [email protected] |
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Ruben has several. They are 20k, but at least you know what you are getting, and he has an excellent reputation.
http://www.dealernfa.com/Machine_Guns.htm |
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Just so you know, there are dealers out there who sell close to the fair market price of NFA stuff. You don't have to pay an huge premium.
NFA guns have not reached their peak price yet. So there are still 5 or 10 buyers for every UZI, M16, thompson, and MAC that comes up for sale. If you see one of the above guns sitting for long time unsold (like week or two), that means it's grossly overpriced. If it was merely just a little overpriced, it would have sold in a day. Also, be aware that gun collectors pay a huge premium for the cheap factory carboard box a gun came in. That shitty box is like a hypno disk. Personally, I think it's dumb to pay an extra $2000 for a box. Becasue that box means nothing about the condition of the gun. And, the words as-new and minty mean nothing. Typically when you see that it means the gun was fired and is in NRA Excellent shape. It should mean the gun is literally like new but it rarely does. I have fired my MAC10 until it would literally scorch blisters onto your skin, but the finish still looks new and I have the carboard box it came in. Viola! Minty as-new MAC10 in original box with all original accessories! Stare into the hypno disk! That's my $0.02. |
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I have been looking for leads on one. I saw one on GB but the guy selling it will not provide info or anything .. So, I am looking for the above. Honest leads respected. bty, I understand the transfers, etc. and I will do nothing less. Thanks http://jbiarmory.com/ He has a Marine burst 16 for sale on Form 3. Hes located in Texas and Ive transferred a suppressor and a machinegun thru him. He's a honest guy |
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(snip) Also, be aware that gun collectors pay a huge premium for the cheap factory carboard box a gun came in. That shitty box is like a hypno disk. Personally, I think it's dumb to pay an extra $2000 for a box. Becasue that box means nothing about the condition of the gun. And, the words as-new and minty mean nothing. Typically when you see that it means the gun was fired and is in NRA Excellent shape. It should mean the gun is literally like new but it rarely does. I have fired my MAC10 until it would literally scorch blisters onto your skin, but the finish still looks new and I have the carboard box it came in. Viola! Minty as-new MAC10 in original box with all original accessories! Stare into the hypno disk! That's my $0.02. As is often the case, cyborg, I disagree with you on this one. You may not value a cardboard box, or believe the "minty" has meaning. But I can assure you, collectors do –– and that is the issue: factory Colts command a premium over RR conversions, which are physically identical, because they are ... factory Colts. And believe me, people collect Colts with a passion. "Minty" means 100% original finish and components, and appearing close to as-new. "New unfired" means new and unfired, period. It's pretty straightforward to me. Since all MGs are now 26 years old, and many were ridden hard when they were new and "cheap," the ones with 100% original finish and showing zero wear have more value than refinished examples, or those with 80% original finish left. Even if they have been fired some. (I do agree that "minty" is subjective –– to me, it's any gun in 96% or better shape.) I know many MG collectors who do not own safes –– instead, they have air-conditioned, walk-in gun vaults, with lighting to highlight the MGs on the walls. To them, having an original box is worth a couple of extra grand, for display purposes; they will even kick in another grand if you have the original shipping invoice. That is their passion. And as Americans, we all have the right to select and indulge in our passions. To say that something has no value just because you place no value on it, is to ignore the reality of the market. My humble opinion. Your Mileage May Vary. 
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Where, I ask you, would the internet be without people disagreeing? It would be 100% porno instead of 90%. 
I understand that gun collectors highly prize a gun with a box. There's no doubt about that whatsoever. You can pay double for a gun with a box for some collector items. What I meant is that a $2000 bump for a gun with a box is quite literally $2000 for the box. I don't think a lot of new guys, people who are not used to buying high end guns, would grasp that. They might think that the extra cost for a gun with a box reflects some special quality about the gun itself, like the box necessarily means the gun is in awesome condition. I've seen unfired guns with no box, and i've seen whipped mutts with a box. If you see a semi-auto FNC sellling for $5000 on gunbroker because it has the box and manual and sling, that is just purely a function of collector obsession. It doesn't mean the FNC in the box is in awesome shape. You're quite literally paying $2000 extra for a cardboard box and a $5 sling. There's a cognitive diconnect there, a complete different mindset between shooters and collectors that I think would not be familiar to a new guy. Personally, I don't have any collector genes at all and I think paying a couple grand for a box is nuts. Also, I agree that the words "minty" and "as-new" have meaning in the english language. Unfortunately they are constantly used in a dishonest manner. If a gun has wear from use, other than very minor handling marks, then it's not as-new. Also, putting a "y" on the end of mint doesn't change the meaning of the word "mint". If a seller calls a gun with some wear "minty", then it's dishonest. Also, while we're on the topic, I've seen a number of new guys report that they paid a huge premium to get a gun from a dealer. I mean like a 50% premium on a common gun like a MAC. I personally feel that kind of markup is a flat waste of money. |
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(snip) Also, be aware that gun collectors pay a huge premium for the cheap factory carboard box a gun came in. That shitty box is like a hypno disk. Personally, I think it's dumb to pay an extra $2000 for a box. Becasue that box means nothing about the condition of the gun. And, the words as-new and minty mean nothing. Typically when you see that it means the gun was fired and is in NRA Excellent shape. It should mean the gun is literally like new but it rarely does. I have fired my MAC10 until it would literally scorch blisters onto your skin, but the finish still looks new and I have the carboard box it came in. Viola! Minty as-new MAC10 in original box with all original accessories! Stare into the hypno disk! That's my $0.02. As is often the case, cyborg, I disagree with you on this one. You may not value a cardboard box, or believe the "minty" has meaning. But I can assure you, collectors do –– and that is the issue: factory Colts command a premium over RR conversions, which are physically identical, because they are ... factory Colts. And believe me, people collect Colts with a passion. "Minty" means 100% original finish and components, and appearing close to as-new. "New unfired" means new and unfired, period. It's pretty straightforward to me. Since all MGs are now 26 years old, and many were ridden hard when they were new and "cheap," the ones with 100% original finish and showing zero wear have more value than refinished examples, or those with 80% original finish left. Even if they have been fired some. (I do agree that "minty" is subjective –– to me, it's any gun in 96% or better shape.) I know many MG collectors who do not own safes –– instead, they have air-conditioned, walk-in gun vaults, with lighting to highlight the MGs on the walls. To them, having an original box is worth a couple of extra grand, for display purposes; they will even kick in another grand if you have the original shipping invoice. That is their passion. And as Americans, we all have the right to select and indulge in our passions. To say that something has no value just because you place no value on it, is to ignore the reality of the market. My humble opinion. Your Mileage May Vary.
"Air-conditioned walk-in gun vaults".........one day.....one day |
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Also, I agree that the words "minty" and "as-new" have meaning in the english language. Unfortunately they are constantly used in a dishonest manner. If a gun has wear from use, other than very minor handling marks, then it's not as-new. Also, putting a "y" on the end of mint doesn't change the meaning of the word "mint". If a seller calls a gun with some wear "minty", then it's dishonest. Also, while we're on the topic, I've seen a number of new guys report that they paid a huge premium to get a gun from a dealer. I mean like a 50% premium on a common gun like a MAC. I personally feel that kind of markup is a flat waste of money. Yeah, we'll agree to disagree. It doesn't help the new guys, but I know from experience what Dennis Todd means when he says minty. Just like I know what Ruben means when he uses the term, and what Bubba means, etc. Each is slightly different, but IMHO none are dishonest. I prefer to use percentages, but even those are subjective. Like my M16A1 in the pic at the end of this thread: IMHO, it's a total of 96%. I would still describe it as minty, but maybe to you that's dishonest. Whatever. As far as premiums ... there is no published "Blue Book" price for MGs. The market is what the market will bear. I do know of dealers who charge perhaps 20% over what individual unlicensed sellers ask; that is because they are a brick-and-mortar business with overhead (rent,insurance, etc.) that individuals do not have. In turn, they offer a brick-and-mortar position for those who are antsy about sending thousands of dollars to a total stranger in another state, and then not seeing what they bought for the months that ATF takes to approve the transfer. To some buyers, that is comforting. A story: Though I've been shooting MGs since I was a kid in the late 1950's, I bought my first very own MG in 1994, a Colt M16A1. (Who knew?) I found it in an ad in Shotgun News but it was a local-to-me seller, and when I showed up to buy it, he had heard of me through other routes. (Yeah, I'm famous around here.) It was an FFL/SOT going out of business. So I gave him the $2k price, and seven months later, I got my '16. Fast-forward to around 1998-99, and I read on subguns.com that this dealer had ripped off several well-known dealers, taking their $$$ and never delivering any MGs,and vanishing from the radar shortly thereafter. They were still waiting. I guess that being local, he decided he had better deliver mine. And that was an FFL/SOT. Sending thousands of dollars to an unlicensed stranger in another state for something that both parties know won't be delivered for months .... well, ripoffs happened in the '90s, and they are even more common today. I'm not an FFL/SOT but I've been down-sizing my collection in recent years. For some reason, folks here trust me, and send me thousands of $$$ anyway. I've always delivered, and never heard a single word of complaint ... but really, it is a scary world out there. Anyway, here's my M16A1 receiver that I would describe as minty. And also as 96%, once I put the original A1 upper and stock back on it (they are in better shape than the lower receiver, which has seen way more use). The finish on everything is all original. Y'all are free to call me dishonest for describing this amount of wear as "minty". (See the nick on the magwell edge? There are two equal-sized spots of wear in the magwell, and two spots of 1/16"x1/16" wear on the rear receiver hoop, from charging handle movement.) But "minty" is my opinion. 
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"Air-conditioned walk-in gun vaults".........one day.....one day Hey, I was contacted four or five years ago by someone here in FL who wanted to get into MGs, and needed advice and guidance. I helped him then, and have been helping him ever since, as he built his collection. (For free, by the way.) Today, he has 14 Colt M16 variations, five Uzis (three Vectors and two IMIs), and more HKs than I can count, but I'm not an HK guru so someone else helps him with them. He also bought a honkin' huge, prolly-has-its-own-zip-code piece of empty land so he could build his own MG shooting range, for him, his sons, and his many friends. All in 4-5 years. Yes, there are folks out there with, um, assets. He is a good and very, very generous guy, will let anyone shoot his MGs and provide the ammo, etc. He just was very successful in his business, and rather than other trophies, his passion is MGs. 
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"Air-conditioned walk-in gun vaults".........one day.....one day Hey, I was contacted four or five years ago by someone here in FL who wanted to get into MGs, and needed advice and guidance. I helped him then, and have been helping him ever since, as he built his collection. (For free, by the way.) Today, he has 14 Colt M16 variations, five Uzis (three Vectors and two IMIs), and more HKs than I can count, but I'm not an HK guru so someone else helps him with them. He also bought a honkin' huge, prolly-has-its-own-zip-code piece of empty land so he could build his own MG shooting range, for him, his sons, and his many friends. All in 4-5 years. Yes, there are folks out there with, um, assets. He is a good and very, very generous guy, will let anyone shoot his MGs and provide the ammo, etc. He just was very successful in his business, and rather than other trophies, his passion is MGs.
I wonder what the max amount of MGs that someone owns is...you know? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "Air-conditioned walk-in gun vaults".........one day.....one day Hey, I was contacted four or five years ago by someone here in FL who wanted to get into MGs, and needed advice and guidance. I helped him then, and have been helping him ever since, as he built his collection. (For free, by the way.) Today, he has 14 Colt M16 variations, five Uzis (three Vectors and two IMIs), and more HKs than I can count, but I'm not an HK guru so someone else helps him with them. He also bought a honkin' huge, prolly-has-its-own-zip-code piece of empty land so he could build his own MG shooting range, for him, his sons, and his many friends. All in 4-5 years. Yes, there are folks out there with, um, assets. He is a good and very, very generous guy, will let anyone shoot his MGs and provide the ammo, etc. He just was very successful in his business, and rather than other trophies, his passion is MGs. I wonder what the max amount of MGs that someone owns is...you know? Old retired SOTs from the 80 still have a few laying around. |
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"Air-conditioned walk-in gun vaults".........one day.....one day Hey, I was contacted four or five years ago by someone here in FL who wanted to get into MGs, and needed advice and guidance. I helped him then, and have been helping him ever since, as he built his collection. (For free, by the way.) Today, he has 14 Colt M16 variations, five Uzis (three Vectors and two IMIs), and more HKs than I can count, but I'm not an HK guru so someone else helps him with them. He also bought a honkin' huge, prolly-has-its-own-zip-code piece of empty land so he could build his own MG shooting range, for him, his sons, and his many friends. All in 4-5 years. Yes, there are folks out there with, um, assets. He is a good and very, very generous guy, will let anyone shoot his MGs and provide the ammo, etc. He just was very successful in his business, and rather than other trophies, his passion is MGs.
I wonder what the max amount of MGs that someone owns is...you know? Old retired SOTs from the 80 still have a few laying around.
Hundreds of transferables? Jesus. No wonder they are rare. Share the wealth people ;) |
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Also, I agree that the words "minty" and "as-new" have meaning in the english language. Unfortunately they are constantly used in a dishonest manner. If a gun has wear from use, other than very minor handling marks, then it's not as-new. Also, putting a "y" on the end of mint doesn't change the meaning of the word "mint". If a seller calls a gun with some wear "minty", then it's dishonest. Also, while we're on the topic, I've seen a number of new guys report that they paid a huge premium to get a gun from a dealer. I mean like a 50% premium on a common gun like a MAC. I personally feel that kind of markup is a flat waste of money. Yeah, we'll agree to disagree. It doesn't help the new guys, but I know from experience what Dennis Todd means when he says minty. Just like I know what Ruben means when he uses the term, and what Bubba means, etc. Each is slightly different, but IMHO none are dishonest. I prefer to use percentages, but even those are subjective. Like my M16A1 in the pic at the end of this thread: IMHO, it's a total of 96%. I would still describe it as minty, but maybe to you that's dishonest. Whatever. As far as premiums ... there is no published "Blue Book" price for MGs. The market is what the market will bear. I do know of dealers who charge perhaps 20% over what individual unlicensed sellers ask; that is because they are a brick-and-mortar business with overhead (rent,insurance, etc.) that individuals do not have. In turn, they offer a brick-and-mortar position for those who are antsy about sending thousands of dollars to a total stranger in another state, and then not seeing what they bought for the months that ATF takes to approve the transfer. To some buyers, that is comforting. A story: Though I've been shooting MGs since I was a kid in the late 1950's, I bought my first very own MG in 1994, a Colt M16A1. (Who knew?) I found it in an ad in Shotgun News but it was a local-to-me seller, and when I showed up to buy it, he had heard of me through other routes. (Yeah, I'm famous around here.) It was an FFL/SOT going out of business. So I gave him the $2k price, and seven months later, I got my '16. Fast-forward to around 1998-99, and I read on subguns.com that this dealer had ripped off several well-known dealers, taking their $$$ and never delivering any MGs,and vanishing from the radar shortly thereafter. They were still waiting. I guess that being local, he decided he had better deliver mine. And that was an FFL/SOT. Sending thousands of dollars to an unlicensed stranger in another state for something that both parties know won't be delivered for months .... well, ripoffs happened in the '90s, and they are even more common today. I'm not an FFL/SOT but I've been down-sizing my collection in recent years. For some reason, folks here trust me, and send me thousands of $$$ anyway. I've always delivered, and never heard a single word of complaint ... but really, it is a scary world out there. Anyway, here's my M16A1 receiver that I would describe as minty. And also as 96%, once I put the original A1 upper and stock back on it (they are in better shape than the lower receiver, which has seen way more use). The finish on everything is all original. Y'all are free to call me dishonest for describing this amount of wear as "minty". (See the nick on the magwell edge? There are two equal-sized spots of wear in the magwell, and two spots of 1/16"x1/16" wear on the rear receiver hoop, from charging handle movement.) But "minty" is my opinion.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/DOE4.jpg It’s kind of pointless to argue over semantics, but I think it’s worthwhile to point out that “mint condition” literally means an uncirculated coin. It means the coin is perfect, has no sign of wear what so ever, it’s in the exact condition as the moment it was minted. I admit that the word has entered the lexicon of sales bullshit to the degree that it means almost any nice gun. So you could say the use of the word is merely a waste of time as opposed to flagrantly dishonest. All of the NFA stuff I’ve bought so far came from an assortment of well -known dealers. The prices I was charged were either at current retail or slightly above, and I was content to pay that in exchange for the added security. I found these items off the subguns.com or the dealer’s websites. If I didn’t have to pay any huge markup, why would anyone else? It’s not like I’m an insider that finds awesome deals. I don’t know about you guys, but where I live, you go to a gun shop or gun show and you’re put on the defensive by the vendors. It’s all smiles and backslaps but the sellers are passionately devoted to scamming every last dime off you. It’s dumb because they’re putting themselves out of business. |
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Quoted: Here is my "Mint M16 Gun", sorry guys I like to post it. http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z56/dmtsc/m161.jpg http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z56/dmtsc/404.jpg What the do-hicky on the barrel near the FH |
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I hereby Recommend Dr. Todd.
Check our Dennis Todd, I was at a show a few weeks ago & he had a few A1's that came from the State of Tenn DOC Dr. Dennis A. Todd Specialties: Class 3 and DDs 239 Baltimore Pike Springfield, PA 19064 Phone: (610) 543-7300 FAX: (610) 543-7909 E-mail: [email protected] He sold me My M16A1 nearly 9 years ago. I got a kick when I first visited his office. It is/was located above a appliance (Stoves, etc.) store. But he is Definitely a member of the Good Guy Club. |
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"Air-conditioned walk-in gun vaults".........one day.....one day Hey, I was contacted four or five years ago by someone here in FL who wanted to get into MGs, and needed advice and guidance. I helped him then, and have been helping him ever since, as he built his collection. (For free, by the way.) Today, he has 14 Colt M16 variations, five Uzis (three Vectors and two IMIs), and more HKs than I can count, but I'm not an HK guru so someone else helps him with them. He also bought a honkin' huge, prolly-has-its-own-zip-code piece of empty land so he could build his own MG shooting range, for him, his sons, and his many friends. All in 4-5 years. Yes, there are folks out there with, um, assets. He is a good and very, very generous guy, will let anyone shoot his MGs and provide the ammo, etc. He just was very successful in his business, and rather than other trophies, his passion is MGs.
I wonder what the max amount of MGs that someone owns is...you know? Old retired SOTs from the 80 still have a few laying around.
Hundreds of transferables? Jesus. No wonder they are rare. Share the wealth people ;) Knight very likely owns 10-20% of the transferables out there. I know a couple of guys who own at least 250-500 transferable guns. |
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Here is my "Mint M16 Gun", sorry guys I like to post it. http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z56/dmtsc/m161.jpg http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z56/dmtsc/404.jpg What the do-hicky on the barrel near the FH That's probably a factory Colt M16-A1/HBAR and the adapter on the barrel is for the bipod (M160 or M14). 
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Quoted: cool, thanksQuoted: Quoted: Here is my "Mint M16 Gun", sorry guys I like to post it. http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z56/dmtsc/m161.jpg http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z56/dmtsc/404.jpg What the do-hicky on the barrel near the FH That's probably a factory Colt M16-A1/HBAR and the adapter on the barrel is for the bipod (M160 or M14). http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk64/drfcolt/General%20Firearms/colt_m16a1_lmg-1.jpg |
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Here is my "Mint M16 Gun", sorry guys I like to post it. http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z56/dmtsc/m161.jpg http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z56/dmtsc/404.jpg What the do-hicky on the barrel near the FH 
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RE: NIB, Mint, Minty...
Back in 2001 I started a search (locally) for an M16. I had just moved from a non-MG state (WA) to the VERY gun/MG/switchblade/"toy" friendly state of Arizona and had always wanted a machinegun. Originally my goal was an M16A1, a Vector UZI SMG, and an AK-47 MG. At the big '01 Phoenix S.A.R. Show I asked Peter Kokalis which one I should get first. He said that Vector had about a 2 year supply and I could get one of their brand new sub-$3000 full size SMGs "anytime", so I should start with the M16. Why? There was a company that was going to make a belt-fed upper for M16 lowers that would cause the rise in $$$ of host 16s. So I located 2 Colts within 3 weeks. Both were $7200. One was a NIB, US Property marked Colt M16. In the box, with the paper rod still in the barrel. The other was a Colt M16A1, owned by the Alyeska Pipeline Company for use by their security guards. A future FOIA request revealed that the company had ordered a palate load of them directly from Colt in 1979! Well my local Class III dealer had 10 coming in and I was the first person on the list to buy one. The guy who was the MG expert at the store got first choice, but I was next. Now why would I NOT get the NIB M16? Three reasons: 1.) NIB one was out of state (not a big deal as the seller was well known), 2.) It was "US Property" marked and periodically stories come out that the government "might" confiscate any and all firearms with those markings (yeah, I know... but...), and 3.) NIB guns are only really valuable when they remain NIB. After collecting old S&W revolvers for many years you realize what NIB, 98%, etc. means: $$$$$$$. I wanted an M16 to SHOOT, not sitting in my safe for the last decade. 
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RE: NIB, Mint, Minty... Back in 2001 I started a search (locally) for an M16. I had just moved from a non-MG state (WA) to the VERY gun/MG/switchblade/"toy" friendly state of Arizona and had always wanted a machinegun. Originally my goal was an M16A1, a Vector UZI SMG, and an AK-47 MG. At the big '01 Phoenix S.A.R. Show I asked Peter Kokalis which one I should get first. He said that Vector had about a 2 year supply and I could get one of their brand new sub-$3000 full size SMGs "anytime", so I should start with the M16. Why? There was a company that was going to make a belt-fed upper for M16 lowers that would cause the rise in $$$ of host 16s. So I located 2 Colts within 3 weeks. Both were $7200. One was a NIB, US Property marked Colt M16. In the box, with the paper rod still in the barrel. The other was a Colt M16A1, owned by the Alyeska Pipeline Company for use by their security guards. A future FOIA request revealed that the company had ordered a palate load of them directly from Colt in 1979! Well my local Class III dealer had 10 coming in and I was the first person on the list to buy one. The guy who was the MG expert at the store got first choice, but I was next. Now why would I NOT get the NIB M16? Three reasons: 1.) NIB one was out of state (not a big deal as the seller was well known), 2.) It was "US Property" marked and periodically stories come out that the government "might" confiscate any and all firearms with those markings (yeah, I know... but...), and 3.) NIB guns are only really valuable when they remain NIB. After collecting old S&W revolvers for many years you realize what NIB, 98%, etc. means: $$$$$$$. I wanted an M16 to SHOOT, not sitting in my safe for the last decade. http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/Title%202%20Toys/79right.jpg AMAZING gun in that picture. I hope to have a A1 or A2 that nice one day. Very nice! |
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RE: NIB, Mint, Minty... Back in 2001 I started a search (locally) for an M16. I had just moved from a non-MG state (WA) to the VERY gun/MG/switchblade/"toy" friendly state of Arizona and had always wanted a machinegun. Originally my goal was an M16A1, a Vector UZI SMG, and an AK-47 MG. At the big '01 Phoenix S.A.R. Show I asked Peter Kokalis which one I should get first. He said that Vector had about a 2 year supply and I could get one of their brand new sub-$3000 full size SMGs "anytime", so I should start with the M16. Why? There was a company that was going to make a belt-fed upper for M16 lowers that would cause the rise in $$$ of host 16s. So I located 2 Colts within 3 weeks. Both were $7200. One was a NIB, US Property marked Colt M16. In the box, with the paper rod still in the barrel. The other was a Colt M16A1, owned by the Alyeska Pipeline Company for use by their security guards. A future FOIA request revealed that the company had ordered a palate load of them directly from Colt in 1979! Well my local Class III dealer had 10 coming in and I was the first person on the list to buy one. The guy who was the MG expert at the store got first choice, but I was next. Now why would I NOT get the NIB M16? Three reasons: 1.) NIB one was out of state (not a big deal as the seller was well known), 2.) It was "US Property" marked and periodically stories come out that the government "might" confiscate any and all firearms with those markings (yeah, I know... but...), and 3.) NIB guns are only really valuable when they remain NIB. After collecting old S&W revolvers for many years you realize what NIB, 98%, etc. means: $$$$$$$. I wanted an M16 to SHOOT, not sitting in my safe for the last decade. http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c314/Z06M16A1/Title%202%20Toys/79right.jpg I don't blame you for not wanting to shoot a NIB M16, especially now that they are the expensive golden standard of NFA guns. But i'm not so sure about the US Property thing, that sounds like it's just one more droplet in the niagra river of gun shop blah blah. I'd like to hear what tony K has to say about that. Some day I'm going to wander into a gun shop in a t-shirt with mustard stains on it (for credibility) and start a really nifty sounding gun shop factoid. Maybe travel country planting the seeds until it hit critical mass. Something that would really sound cool to say but make no sense. |
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Regarding U.S.Property-marked MGs: Yes, there have been isolated cases where .gov has "taken them back."
So far, these generally fall ito one of two categories: ––MGs that were sent to local LE agencies which, later, sold them off on Form 4's, not realizing the original sales contract stipulated they could not be sold to civilians. This is one of the reasons that for the last decade, they must be registered on Form 10's (prior to that, it was common to use Form 5's for milsurp MGs). ––Firearms built from demilled sections that ATF later, retroactively, declared had been insufficiently destroyed by the U.S. military and thus were still "intact" machine guns. A good (or bad) example of this were the MK Specialties semi M1As that were confiscated in 2002. You can read the court ruling on it here: http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/06a0103p-06.pdf Does make you wonder about all the '16s welded-up from demils, doesn't it? If like MKS's M14s they were insufficiently cut in ATF's view, then they still were MGs with they were welded back together, and an existing MG cannot be registered, even by an 07/02. Sigh. In addition, I believe the "once-US-property, always-US-property" issue has come up in cases involving warbirds and other hardware –– you could find out more on warbird and re-eneactor forums. And if you listen to those folks, instances of such seizures are increasing. Now, the issue with US Property-stamped M16s is that many with that stamp were never actually delivered to .gov, and thus despite the stamping, never were U.S. Property in the first place. Examples are many Colt toolroom guns, the H&R '16s from the H&R sale ... can't recall whether it's the Detroit or Chicago PDs (maybe both) that got a ton of M16s from production overruns directly from GM's Hydramatic Division, all U.S. Property stamped. So I generally leave the US marked MGs to the advanced collectors,and stick to good ol' civilian M16s.
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You definitely know all about M16s, no question about it.
Seems like the US property marking is more of a flag for a possible problem than the actual cause of the problem. Like the guns not marked that way would be much more likey to have a clear NFA registration with no weird legal screwups attached I wonder what percent of the NFA guns are marked that way. |
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I collect all kinds of stuff, not just NFA. The NFA community is, IMO, a bit too loosey-goosey when it comes to descriptions of condition. May not matter today, but in 40 years when it goes to auction someone will notice. For the record, 99% is not NIB. NIB means NIB and unfired. ANIB is a very poor descriptor, one that raises flags. Same goes for "minty".
Second, I am 100% with those who advise newbies to use reputable dealers. Subguns has a recommended dealers list, BTW. You'll see Dr Todd on that list. Sam |
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Quoted:
IThe NFA community is, IMO, a bit too loosey-goosey when it comes to descriptions of condition. I've seen NFA ads wanting to sell a $10K+ item that had fewer words in it than what I quoted above.
I've been very fortunate in what I've bought, in that 80% of my acquisitions have been from local sellers, so ad descriptions have been moot. I sometimes wonder if some of the items I am looking at even function... |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
IThe NFA community is, IMO, a bit too loosey-goosey when it comes to descriptions of condition. I've seen NFA ads wanting to sell a $10K+ item that had fewer words in it than what I quoted above.
I've been very fortunate in what I've bought, in that 80% of my acquisitions have been from local sellers, so ad descriptions have been moot. I sometimes wonder if some of the items I am looking at even function... I've been buying and selling the occassional gun on gunbroker for 12 years. Buyers want to see pictures, lots of bright, clear pictures taken in strong sunlight. A long written description is a pretty much a waste of time, the descriptive terms used are vague and people are so used to being bullshitted they don't even read it anyway. They email a lot of questions indicating that they did not read the text of the ad. To be honest, a lot of buyers aren't too sophisiticated anyway. They ask questions like will a 30-06 take 308 ammo and real basic stuff like that. |
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I have listed & sold 1 MG (AC556F) and 1 SMG (Vector UZI FS) privately and I offered in my ads to take any additional pix of any part of the guns. This helped sell* both within 4 days and 7 days respectively.
*By sell that meant I got a commit to buy and $$$ on the way to start the paperwork. Both were sold AZ resident to AZ resident so NO sales tax. That is a BIG chunk of cash to save. |
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Quoted:
I have listed & sold 1 MG (AC556F) and 1 SMG (Vector UZI FS) privately and I offered in my ads to take any additional pix of any part of the guns. This helped sell* both within 4 days and 7 days respectively. *By sell that meant I got a commit to buy and $$$ on the way to start the paperwork. Both were sold AZ resident to AZ resident so NO sales tax. That is a BIG chunk of cash to save. I have always taken a lot of pix and included them in the ad. I also try to price them reasonably, rather than go fishin'. Over the years, I've only had one MG that did not sell to the very first person who responded. And on Colt factory M16s, I've never even had to post a single ad: I've got a running list of folks who tell me they want one (they usually specify "minty" ) and on the rare occasion when I sell one, I just pick someone off the list, email some pix, and it's sold immediately for the asking price.
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