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Posted: 5/6/2011 7:55:38 AM EDT
| If I buy a m16 with a barrel shorter than 16 inches will it be a 2 stamp gun or can I run any barrel length I want on the registered lower reciever? |
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thank you very much I run up on a sgw conversion at a very reasonable price that has a 11.5 inch barrel. I just got my c&r license which is required in missouri and really had not planned on purchasing right away , but I hate to pass on the deal . I personally know the person who has the mg for sale and they are 100% straight up nothing cheezy about the gun , he just needs to put dollars elsewhere.
thanks agin jeff |
| With a registered M16, you can get whatever upper you want. Only caution, is if you have say an M16 and two less than 16 inch uppers and you also have an AR-15, you would be in violation of the law. If you have no AR-15's, and only a registered M16, you can have all the spare parts and uppers you want at any length. |
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With a registered M16, you can get whatever upper you want. Only caution, is if you have say an M16 and two less than 16 inch uppers and you also have an AR-15, you would be in violation of the law. If you have no AR-15's, and only a registered M16, you can have all the spare parts and uppers you want at any length. I believe you are mistaken. Can you show me a case where charges were brought against someone for just possessing extra uppers and not assembling their ar into an sbr. thanks, Jay |
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With a registered M16, you can get whatever upper you want. Only caution, is if you have say an M16 and two less than 16 inch uppers and you also have an AR-15, you would be in violation of the law. If you have no AR-15's, and only a registered M16, you can have all the spare parts and uppers you want at any length. I believe you are mistaken. Can you show me a case where charges were brought against someone for just possessing extra uppers and not assembling their ar into an sbr. thanks, Jay The case is U.S. v. Drasen, 845 F.2d 731 (7th Cir 1988) Attorney James Bardwell's synopsis: This case concerns whether an unassembled set of parts to make a rifle out of can be a short barreled rifle under the NFA, if the parts have never been assembled into a rifle. Basically the issue is whether the definition covers it. Although the law doesn't say that, the court decides it does. ATF has long argued, and been bolstered by cases such as this, that an NFA weapon, that is not otherwise defined as parts of such a weapon, is still one if someone possesses all the parts to assemble it. They apply the same logic to semi-auto "assault" weapons, and large capacity magazines. This holding was not altered by the supreme court case in Thompson/Center, which was similar to this. In that case the court agreed with this case, but distinguished the situation with T/C in that the parts had dual use, either for a legal gun(s), or for a SBR. In this case the folks were selling the AR kits with short barrels and a flash hider you were supposed to silver solder onto the end, or otherwise permanently attach. Either that or register the thing as a SBR before you put it together. Since the flash hider wasn't permenetly attached they didn't count it toward the overall length of the barrel, and the kit could only turn into a SBR, unless you bought parts of your own into the equation. |
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With a registered M16, you can get whatever upper you want. Only caution, is if you have say an M16 and two less than 16 inch uppers and you also have an AR-15, you would be in violation of the law. If you have no AR-15's, and only a registered M16, you can have all the spare parts and uppers you want at any length. I believe you are mistaken. Can you show me a case where charges were brought against someone for just possessing extra uppers and not assembling their ar into an sbr. thanks, Jay The case is U.S. v. Drasen, 845 F.2d 731 (7th Cir 1988) Attorney James Bardwell's synopsis: This case concerns whether an unassembled set of parts to make a rifle out of can be a short barreled rifle under the NFA, if the parts have never been assembled into a rifle. Basically the issue is whether the definition covers it. Although the law doesn't say that, the court decides it does. ATF has long argued, and been bolstered by cases such as this, that an NFA weapon, that is not otherwise defined as parts of such a weapon, is still one if someone possesses all the parts to assemble it. They apply the same logic to semi-auto "assault" weapons, and large capacity magazines. This holding was not altered by the supreme court case in Thompson/Center, which was similar to this. In that case the court agreed with this case, but distinguished the situation with T/C in that the parts had dual use, either for a legal gun(s), or for a SBR. In this case the folks were selling the AR kits with short barrels and a flash hider you were supposed to silver solder onto the end, or otherwise permanently attach. Either that or register the thing as a SBR before you put it together. Since the flash hider wasn't permenetly attached they didn't count it toward the overall length of the barrel, and the kit could only turn into a SBR, unless you bought parts of your own into the equation. I should have worded my question better. If you have a M-16 and a 11.5, 14.5 and 16 inch barreled uppers you are fine. I am saying even if you have a non-sbr ar as long as you don't throw one of your M-16 uppers on it you are within the law. Maybe what you posted covered that but I don't see it. I should clarify I am not recommending anything just looking for clarification in what is in my opinion a muddy issue. Thanks, Jay |
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Buy a couple of pistol lowers to cover yur butt  This is a cheap way to just make 110% sure you are covered. I mean, what do they cost, $160 for a built lower? I know some guys that have a couple of pistol lowers just for this reason. Or you can do what I do, and only own SBR's. 
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With a registered M16, you can get whatever upper you want. Only caution, is if you have say an M16 and two less than 16 inch uppers and you also have an AR-15, you would be in violation of the law. If you have no AR-15's, and only a registered M16, you can have all the spare parts and uppers you want at any length. I believe you are mistaken. Can you show me a case where charges were brought against someone for just possessing extra uppers and not assembling their ar into an sbr. thanks, Jay The case is U.S. v. Drasen, 845 F.2d 731 (7th Cir 1988) Attorney James Bardwell's synopsis: This case concerns whether an unassembled set of parts to make a rifle out of can be a short barreled rifle under the NFA, if the parts have never been assembled into a rifle. Basically the issue is whether the definition covers it. Although the law doesn't say that, the court decides it does. ATF has long argued, and been bolstered by cases such as this, that an NFA weapon, that is not otherwise defined as parts of such a weapon, is still one if someone possesses all the parts to assemble it. They apply the same logic to semi-auto "assault" weapons, and large capacity magazines. This holding was not altered by the supreme court case in Thompson/Center, which was similar to this. In that case the court agreed with this case, but distinguished the situation with T/C in that the parts had dual use, either for a legal gun(s), or for a SBR. In this case the folks were selling the AR kits with short barrels and a flash hider you were supposed to silver solder onto the end, or otherwise permanently attach. Either that or register the thing as a SBR before you put it together. Since the flash hider wasn't permenetly attached they didn't count it toward the overall length of the barrel, and the kit could only turn into a SBR, unless you bought parts of your own into the equation. I should have worded my question better. If you have a M-16 and a 11.5, 14.5 and 16 inch barreled uppers you are fine. I am saying even if you have a non-sbr ar as long as you don't throw one of your M-16 uppers on it you are within the law. Maybe what you posted covered that but I don't see it. I should clarify I am not recommending anything just looking for clarification in what is in my opinion a muddy issue. Thanks, Jay Jay, I'm not saying anything. But what the U.S. Supreme Court says is, if you have all the parts to assemble an SBR, but do not have an alternative legal configuration in which to assemble those same parts, then you are in constructive possession of an SBR. In the example you list, according to SCOTUS, you are fine if you own an M16 (and/or an SBR) with multiple uppers and a Title 1 AR15, as long as the AR15(s) you own are complete rifles. But: The SCOTUS ruling also says that if you own an M16 and/or an SBR AR, and multiple sub-16" uppers, and non-SBR'd AR15 lower receivers for which you do not have a corresponding 16+" uppers, then you are in possession of an unregistered SBR, because you own all the parts required to assemble an SBR (non-SBR lower receiver plus a sub-16" upper ) but do not have all the parts (non-SBR lower plus a 16"+ upper) to assemble a legal Title 1 firearm. Again, this is not my idea. This is just what the Supreme Court has ruled. 
The legal concept of constructive possession has, for better or worse, been growing in recent years in U.S. jurisprudence. It means that in certain circumstances, "intent" is irrelevant –– it means that mere possession establishes intent. Current examples: ––It is completely legal to possess a box of 12 Sudafed capsules. But get caught in possession of 10,000 Sudafed capsules, and you are liable to be convicted of intent to manufacture methamphetamine, because there is no lawful reason for an individual to possess 10k Sudafed capsules except to manufacture meth. ––It is completely legal to possess a bag or two of ammonium nitrate fertilizer and a tankful of diesel fuel. Lots of farmers do that. But an individual who lives in an apartment, owns no farmland, and gets caught in possession of 100 50-pound bags of ammonium nitrate fertilizer plus a couple of 55-gallon drums of diesel fuel is a terrorist. To get back to the lower-receivers-without-uppers-plus-sub16"-uppers possession issue: This is a question I have discussed with many management-level ATF folks, because it affects every FFL who sells AR15 parts. And the answer is, they would not prosecute, or testify in the prosecution of, FFLs who possess these parts, because they have a valid reason to possess them. OTOH, they do not rule out the prosecution of unlicensed individuals who own all the components without an otherwise lawful application for those parts, solely because those individuals are the registered owners of NFA items like MGs and SBRs. 
Now, I take the above within the context of potential prosecutors and potential jurors. There is a huge dif in this aspect between folks who live in Connecticut and those who live in Alaska. The internet, of course, has no context or jurisdiction, thus I go with the most conservative approach. Your Mileage May Vary. 
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Quoted: with the above reasoning as long as you had over 16" uppers for all your non sbr/pistol lowers you would be legal as well would you not. That is my understanding. Further, I would imagine (though I don't think it has been tested) that if you had pistol buffer tubes for each of your stripped lowers (that could have a <16" upper attached to it) then you should probably be good since a legal configuration can be completed. But what do I know since IANAL.
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Thanks Tony. That cleared it up enough for me that I know I am legal at least. Jay Cool. Glad I could help. FWIW, I'm not a cop, but I do like to help folks avoid stepping on land mines. This issue came up here a coupla years ago –– mid-2000's, after the AW ban expired, and lower receivers started hitting the market, cheap. I noticed that individuals who had posted about having one SBR lower and multiple sub-16" uppers also started posting about cheap lower receivers and LPKs, and that they had bought a bunch. What they hadn't thought through was that they now had one SBR-registered lower, several SBR-length uppers ... and, thanks to the "bargain" bulk purchases, they now had all the parts needed to assemble a couple more unregistered SBRs, but none of the parts required to assemble Title 1 firearms. This was not a good thing. And if I could add up one and one from their internet posts, so could other people. Ahem. When it comes to firearms laws, good folks can end up as convicted criminals for no reason other than not understanding the law. I do not want to see that happen. YMMV. HTH. |
hey thanks for giving me food for thought I made the purchase and after waiting on the chief of police to sign off for an eternity it seemed like I have all the stuff in the mail to the atf . more than likely I will just leave the rifle as it is . it has an 11.5 inch barrel and I hope to buy a suppresor after I recover from the drain on my toy fund . I am going to buy me another full auto bolt carrier because you know Im gonna have to try my 458 socom upper on it.
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