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Posted: 3/28/2009 9:25:03 AM EDT
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Just got my Spikes ST-22 yesterday and it runs spot on in Semi. However, it won't do jack in auto. In Auto, the first round fires, kicks the hammer back, and loads the second round and when I pull the trigger...nothing. I pull the upper off and find two things:
1. round in chamber does NOT have a light strike, so no bolt bounce (right?) 2. the hammer is still back, but pulling the trigger does nothing. move the selector to semi and pulling the trigger releases the hammer. I have the trip installed on the bottom of the kit and have the anti-bounce weight installed. Unfortunately, mine was sent without Spike's anti-bounce weight, sear trip or ball (for the ball detent mod) so I am using the trip and weight from a Ciener kit I had laying around. Any clues what is wrong? EDIT: I am running it with a suppressor (GemTech HALO). |
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Just got my Spikes ST-22 yesterday and it runs spot on in Semi. However, it won't do jack in auto. In Auto, the first round fires, kicks the hammer back, and loads the second round and when I pull the trigger...nothing. I pull the upper off and find two things: 1. round in chamber does NOT have a light strike, so no bolt bounce (right?) 2. the hammer is still back, but pulling the trigger does nothing. move the selector to semi and pulling the trigger releases the hammer. I have the trip installed on the bottom of the kit and have the anti-bounce weight installed. Unfortunately, mine was sent without Spike's anti-bounce weight, sear trip or ball (for the ball detent mod) so I am using the trip and weight from a Ciener kit I had laying around. Any clues what is wrong? Nothing is wrong. Yours is acting like exactly every other .22 conversion in full-auto. 
OK, there are a few lucky souls out there who get one that initially runs 100%, right out of the box. That generally doesn't last for long, and they deteriorate down to the reliability of most new kits. There are lots of posts and even entire web pages devoted to fixes and tricks –– just do a search here, or google it. But be aware that what works for one kit may actually reduce reliability in the next kit. The problem is that .22RF (a) is very dirty, and (b) generates so little back pressure that it's tough to get it running, and keep it running, in FA. In your case, it sounds like the trip is not "tripping" the autosear. This could either be an alignment issue or a force issue. If you want to run full-auto in .22 rimfire, be prepared for a lot of tinkering. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it. 
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In your case, it sounds like the trip is not "tripping" the autosear. This could either be an alignment issue or a force issue. Any suggestions? I have read tons of the posts regarding the .22 kits and auto, but I don't know which "fix" I should try for my specific problem. |
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I measured the distance from the rear of the .22 kit to the tip of the trip and then did the same on an M16 carrier. The M16 carrier was longer which makes sense that it doesn't trip. I bet my problem is that I am using an auto trip from an old Ciener kit since I don't have the Spike's auto trip yet. Hopefully the Spike's auto trip is the correct length, I guess we will see.
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I'm in the same boat. In semi, my ST-22 runs flawlessly; in full-auto on a M16A1 lower, it doesn't run at all after the 1st round. ...and I've tried everything mentioned on the Spikes Tactical forum in the Industry section: trip bar installed, with/without the detent & ball/spring, 20 different kinds of ammo (exaggerating only slightly), suppressor/no suppressor, dry/oiled, various lengths of the Lakeside recoil spring, etc. The only think I didn't try was a lighter hammer spring in the lower (not messing with my M16 FCG). I've resigned myself that I have, and will always have, a semi-auto only ST-22 system. |
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I'm in the same boat. In semi, my ST-22 runs flawlessly; in full-auto on a M16A1 lower, it doesn't run at all after the 1st round. ...and I've tried everything mentioned on the Spikes Tactical forum in the Industry section: trip bar installed, with/without the detent & ball/spring, 20 different kinds of ammo (exaggerating only slightly), suppressor/no suppressor, dry/oiled, various lengths of the Lakeside recoil spring, etc. The only think I didn't try was a lighter hammer spring in the lower (not messing with my M16 FCG). I've resigned myself that I have, and will always have, a semi-auto only ST-22 system. Are you using their auto trip or an auto trip from a ciener kit? I ask b/c I was running an auto trip from a ciener kit which would not trip at all. I talked with Tom at Spikes and he told me that Spikes auto trip is dimensionally different from the ciener auto trip and that explains why it was not tripping at all. I ordered the auto trip, weight, and spring/ball from them yesterday and will try again when the parts arrive. |
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In your case, it sounds like the trip is not "tripping" the autosear. This could either be an alignment issue or a force issue. Any suggestions? I have read tons of the posts regarding the .22 kits and auto, but I don't know which "fix" I should try for my specific problem. Ya, give up and sell it like I did after trying ALL the fixes and wasting ALL the time and money. |
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Ya, give up and sell it like I did after trying ALL the fixes and wasting ALL the time and money. Too hard headed to give up yet. I will try the auto parts that are being sent and if that doesn't work then I will consult with Tom. There are too many people getting them running for me to give in so soon. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm in the same boat. In semi, my ST-22 runs flawlessly; in full-auto on a M16A1 lower, it doesn't run at all after the 1st round. ...and I've tried everything mentioned on the Spikes Tactical forum in the Industry section: trip bar installed, with/without the detent & ball/spring, 20 different kinds of ammo (exaggerating only slightly), suppressor/no suppressor, dry/oiled, various lengths of the Lakeside recoil spring, etc. The only think I didn't try was a lighter hammer spring in the lower (not messing with my M16 FCG). I've resigned myself that I have, and will always have, a semi-auto only ST-22 system. Are you using their auto trip or an auto trip from a ciener kit? I ask b/c I was running an auto trip from a ciener kit which would not trip at all. I talked with Tom at Spikes and he told me that Spikes auto trip is dimensionally different from the ciener auto trip and that explains why it was not tripping at all. I ordered the auto trip, weight, and spring/ball from them yesterday and will try again when the parts arrive. I'm using Spike's auto trip. Good luck with yours - - be sure to post back after your parts arrive and you try it out. |
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I'm using Spike's auto trip. Good luck with yours - - be sure to post back after your parts arrive and you try it out. Will do. One more question. You said yours will fire one round then quit on Auto. Do you hear the hammer drop but no bang? What is the condition after the stoppage? For example, is the hammer still back, is the hammer forward, is there a light strike on the unfired round, etc. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'm using Spike's auto trip. Good luck with yours - - be sure to post back after your parts arrive and you try it out. Will do. One more question. You said yours will fire one round then quit on Auto. Do you hear the hammer drop but no bang? What is the condition after the stoppage? For example, is the hammer still back, is the hammer forward, is there a light strike on the unfired round, etc. The hammer drops, but no bang (hammer forward). No light strike on the unfired round. It is as if either one of 2 things was happening: 1. There wasn't enough 'oomph' in the gas blowback to run the carrier far enough back to cock the hammer (remember, I mentioned that I didn't want to mess with my M16 FCG by lightening up the hammer spring - - this may have helped). Yes, I tried CCI mini-mags and a suppressor, both of which should provide enough back pressure. And remember, it works fine in semi, so the pressure is there, I believe. Or . . 2. The bolt was bouncing against the new cartridge far enough that the firing pin couldn't doesn't reach the primer (i.e., the ball/spring hardware wasn't enough to do the job). Not sure what else I could do, other than maybe deepen the ball detent on the carrier plate. Other than those 2 hypotheses, I'm out of ideas. |
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I'm using Spike's auto trip. Good luck with yours - - be sure to post back after your parts arrive and you try it out. Will do. One more question. You said yours will fire one round then quit on Auto. Do you hear the hammer drop but no bang? What is the condition after the stoppage? For example, is the hammer still back, is the hammer forward, is there a light strike on the unfired round, etc. The hammer drops, but no bang (hammer forward). No light strike on the unfired round. It is as if either one of 2 things was happening: 1. There wasn't enough 'oomph' in the gas blowback to run the carrier far enough back to cock the hammer (remember, I mentioned that I didn't want to mess with my M16 FCG by lightening up the hammer spring - - this may have helped). Yes, I tried CCI mini-mags and a suppressor, both of which should provide enough back pressure. And remember, it works fine in semi, so the pressure is there, I believe. Or . . 2. The bolt was bouncing against the new cartridge far enough that the firing pin couldn't doesn't reach the primer (i.e., the ball/spring hardware wasn't enough to do the job). Not sure what else I could do, other than maybe deepen the ball detent on the carrier plate. Other than those 2 hypotheses, I'm out of ideas. Did you run the ball/spring with the anti-bounce weight? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm using Spike's auto trip. Good luck with yours - - be sure to post back after your parts arrive and you try it out. Will do. One more question. You said yours will fire one round then quit on Auto. Do you hear the hammer drop but no bang? What is the condition after the stoppage? For example, is the hammer still back, is the hammer forward, is there a light strike on the unfired round, etc. The hammer drops, but no bang (hammer forward). No light strike on the unfired round. It is as if either one of 2 things was happening: 1. There wasn't enough 'oomph' in the gas blowback to run the carrier far enough back to cock the hammer (remember, I mentioned that I didn't want to mess with my M16 FCG by lightening up the hammer spring - - this may have helped). Yes, I tried CCI mini-mags and a suppressor, both of which should provide enough back pressure. And remember, it works fine in semi, so the pressure is there, I believe. Or . . 2. The bolt was bouncing against the new cartridge far enough that the firing pin couldn't doesn't reach the primer (i.e., the ball/spring hardware wasn't enough to do the job). Not sure what else I could do, other than maybe deepen the ball detent on the carrier plate. Other than those 2 hypotheses, I'm out of ideas. Did you run the ball/spring with the anti-bounce weight? Yes I did have both the ball/spring and the anti-bounce weight (forgot to mention that in my laundry list of things I've tried). |
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My buddy has a M16 that runs great with his .22lr kit. Maybe he'll chime in and confirm this but... I recall that he had to use a lighter hammer spring to get any reliability out of it. It was so light that it wouldn't work with his 7.62x39 upper.
Off topic, Nugent, do you still have your RLL or did you sell it to fund the M16? |
| I have a ciener kit for my M-16. I have to use a light hammer spring, will still work with 9mm but not 5.56mm. Also it only seems like CCI Mini Mags, the bulk ammo is too dirty and will jam it up after one mag dump. I lube it up real well before shooting. Maybe try testing at home to see if it is tripping the hammer properly also. Pull the trigger and hold and manually cycle the bolt to hear the hammer being released properly. |
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My buddy has a M16 that runs great with his .22lr kit. Maybe he'll chime in and confirm this but... I recall that he had to use a lighter hammer spring to get any reliability out of it. It was so light that it wouldn't work with his 7.62x39 upper. Off topic, Nugent, do you still have your RLL or did you sell it to fund the M16? Still got the RLL. I will setup the RR to work exclusively with .22, so I am willing to do whatever is needed to get it running. I will then use the RLL for all other calibers. |
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***UPDATE***
I received the auto parts from Spikes and indeed the dimensions are DIFFERENT between Spikes and Cieners auto trip. Put the auto trip in and voila!, it tripped the sear every time. So I took it out to the range today for some testing and it worked and didn't work. Meaning, I got some really nice strings of full auto but had some weird problems as well. The main problem was hammer striking round but no bang (even in semi). I would examine the round and there would be very light hammer strikes on the rounds. For example, I would charge the CH, the bolt would fully seat, pull the trigger, hammer would fall, and CLICK! This would happen on SEMI and F/A. This is how the rifle was setup at the range: 10.5" Spikes Upper CCI mini mags Gemtech HALO No buffer or buffer spring Spikes anti-bounce weight Spikes ball/spring (the stiffer of the two springs included in the baggy) Spikes auto trip Light Hammer spring (not sure where I got it as it has been in my parts bin forever) Light oil on the rails BDM skinny mags Maybe my hammer spring is TOO light? |
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No buffer or buffer spring Shouldn't a buffer and spring be there just to hold the modified 22LR kit against the 22LR barrel-extension. I know with my Kuehl set-up, the modified Ciener kit can be separated from the barrel quite easily and a buffer/spring sort of holds things together. Maybe it's "jiggling" around and the timing is getting messed up - the buffer/spring would give it a good solid base. Of course, I don't know how the Spikes set-up does things and could very well be off base. |
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No buffer or buffer spring Shouldn't a buffer and spring be there just to hold the modified 22LR kit against the 22LR barrel-extension. I know with my Kuehl set-up, the modified Ciener kit can be separated from the barrel quite easily and a buffer/spring sort of holds things together. Maybe it's "jiggling" around and the timing is getting messed up - the buffer/spring would give it a good solid base. Of course, I don't know how the Spikes set-up does things and could very well be off base. Really? I thought I read that you need to remove the buffer and spring. So much for me thinking. |
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***UPDATE*** I received the auto parts from Spikes and indeed the dimensions are DIFFERENT between Spikes and Cieners auto trip. Put the auto trip in and voila!, it tripped the sear every time. So I took it out to the range today for some testing and it worked and didn't work. Meaning, I got some really nice strings of full auto but had some weird problems as well. The main problem was hammer striking round but no bang (even in semi). I would examine the round and there would be very light hammer strikes on the rounds. For example, I would charge the CH, the bolt would fully seat, pull the trigger, hammer would fall, and CLICK! This would happen on SEMI and F/A. This is how the rifle was setup at the range: 10.5" Spikes Upper CCI mini mags Gemtech HALO No buffer or buffer spring Spikes anti-bounce weight Spikes ball/spring (the stiffer of the two springs included in the baggy) Spikes auto trip Light Hammer spring (not sure where I got it as it has been in my parts bin forever) Light oil on the rails BDM skinny mags Maybe my hammer spring is TOO light? It may be that your kit just isn't fully broken in yet. Firing pins in these things (any brand) have a habit of dragging or jamming until they're really, REALLY smooth. You could a) take out the firing pin and polish the ever lovin' crap out of it (especially the sides with flat, rectangular pins), b) lube the crap out of it and see if that gets you more reliable firing, c) put valve grinding compound in the channel and hope for the best. Me? I'd go with "b" first, and then "a". My M261 kit, well used by the time I got it, needed extra lubrication at first, and it needs to have the firing pin and channel cleaned VERY thoroughly after a trip to the range. |
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No buffer or buffer spring Shouldn't a buffer and spring be there just to hold the modified 22LR kit against the 22LR barrel-extension. I know with my Kuehl set-up, the modified Ciener kit can be separated from the barrel quite easily and a buffer/spring sort of holds things together. Maybe it's "jiggling" around and the timing is getting messed up - the buffer/spring would give it a good solid base. Of course, I don't know how the Spikes set-up does things and could very well be off base. Really? I thought I read that you need to remove the buffer and spring. So much for me thinking. Like I said, I'm talking from the stand-point of a Kuehl set-up - the Spikes may be different. I never fired mine without the buffer/spring, but early on, I put it together without it and it seemed a little un-stable (to me, anyhow). Plus, it's one more thing I don't have to do when switching back to a caliber that uses it. May be worth a try ...... |
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Like I said, I'm talking from the stand-point of a Kuehl set-up - the Spikes may be different. I never fired mine without the buffer/spring, but early on, I put it together without it and it seemed a little un-stable (to me, anyhow). Plus, it's one more thing I don't have to do when switching back to a caliber that uses it. May be worth a try ...... Can't hurt, right. |
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Like I said, I'm talking from the stand-point of a Kuehl set-up - the Spikes may be different. I never fired mine without the buffer/spring, but early on, I put it together without it and it seemed a little un-stable (to me, anyhow). Plus, it's one more thing I don't have to do when switching back to a caliber that uses it. May be worth a try ...... Can't hurt, right. Sure can't .... It may take a little more (not much) effort to close the upper with the buffer/spring in. The rear plate of the conversion kit may hit the buffer-face and push it in a little as you close the upper - that's what give it a tight/locked-down feeling. |
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Like I said, I'm talking from the stand-point of a Kuehl set-up - the Spikes may be different. I never fired mine without the buffer/spring, but early on, I put it together without it and it seemed a little un-stable (to me, anyhow). Plus, it's one more thing I don't have to do when switching back to a caliber that uses it. May be worth a try ...... Can't hurt, right. Any progress - did you try this? |
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drfcolt was right. I put in the buffer and buffer spring and out of 30 rounds, I had 3 problems. I got 2-3 fail to fires. Inspection of the unfired rounds showed no light rim strikes, very weird.
Also, just for shits and giggles, I read over Spikes SEMI-AUTO tuning guide and he did mention (at the very bottom) that keeping the buffer and buffer spring in can SOMETIMES cure very light rim strikes. Also, it stated that fail to fires with no light rim strikes (or something similar) could be caused by the bolt not fully getting into battery and suggested using the full length Lakeside recoil spring. If you have problems with the full length spring, begin cutting 3 coils off and try again until it works. I read the FULL-AUTO tuning guide but it never occurred to me to read the SEMI-AUTO as well. Tuesday I will take out the upper in tow with all the springs to test what works best. I will start off by putting my normal hammer spring into the rifle WITH the buffer and buffer spring as I still want to shoot .223 and 7.62x39 with the lower. More to come Tuesday night or Wednesday... |
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i'm hoping to get my RR in a few months (assuming thats all the time it takes for ATF to approve the form 4...).
now, i have a ciener .22 AR-15 kit that i've used in my semiautos, it works fine with the right ammo. i want to be able to try it out with the M16 when i get it. so, i got on cieners website, found an order form i can fill out with the auto trip and anit bounce weight, and send it in with a check. it'll be $40 with shipping. would you guiys recommend i spend this $$$ and take my chances on getting it to work in F/A? i figure that if i can get it to work, that'd be GREAT!!! if not, then i'm out $40... any opinions? |
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i love reading these posts, there are always so many people who just give up on the .22 m16, with the prices of ammo these days getting the .22 to work was a top priority to me heres what I did.
first off i have a spikes kit, and i run the antibounce weight and ball with the heavier spring that came with the trip use good ammo, cci minimags or aguila 30 grn these are the only consistant loads ive found that will work 100% on my setup loosen up your chamber, i just polished the crap out of my chamber untill all ammo i could get my hands on would drop in and fall out without coersion get a full size lakeside recoil spring, mine has a total of 9 coils cut off of it. polish everything- anything that has wear from moving parts should have a mirror polish adjust your timing... i took mateial off of the trip where the auto sear contacts it, this solved many of my problems but i would try everything else first use a supressor, the added back pressure helps in reliability even with crappier ammo in my experiance : empty cases stuck between the charging handle and bolt as well as most stove pipes are caused by short strokes, fix this by adjusting your hammer spring and or recoil spring (lighter hammer/ cut coils) light primer strikes are most likely caused by bolt bounce, or a tight chamber that has gotten dirty, it leaves the breach open just enough that the hammer uses most of its energy on closing it then striking the rim i think thats about everything, and remember the lakeside spring will take a bit to break in so just keep tinkering, and dont spend a bunch of money either! just get 2 lakeside springs, and and extra std hammer spring that you can ben the legs on and customize the power yourself. this can be done cheaply, at least in parts, good reliable ammo is the most expensive thing, and hardest to find right now. hope this helped and good luck. |
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