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Who wants to make a bet with me re:new MG sales? (Page 4 of 7)
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Originally Posted By kel: If you’re interested in PM’ing me on this, I’m looking for examples of case law that allowed this. I am not aware of any Case Law allowing a Post-86 Machine Gun to be made "transferable". I am aware of example of pre-86 firearms being added to the registry after 1986, via Case Law. I brought this up in a thread over a decade ago. US vs 18 machine guns. |
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Originally Posted By kel: If you’re interested in PM’ing me on this, I’m looking for examples of case law that allowed this. I currently have an active Federal case where the US is trying to destroy a MG I own that was stolen and then went into forfeiture. I filed paperwork that referenced Bruen as well as case law where Amnesty registration was allowed decades after the 1968 30-day Amnesty. I really just wanted to get my stuff back, but since I was forced by the government into that position, I asked for an unconstitutional judgement & repeal of § 922(o) and § 5861 while I was at it. @Ben Sounds like he could really use any info you have. |
| I hope you succeed. I brought this up before. The brace amnesty (free stamp) does not meet the law as written for an amnesty. They are allowed to do an all item amnesty for 90 days . The atf wants to do a 120 days single item amnesty. I would think you stand a chance and will buy you lunch and send a buck or two extra if you make a case happen. It is a long shot but not lottery long odds. |
RIP Jeff Reed. Tennessee Squire, Ga. Carry member, NRA,Non-puking 72 ounce drinker 2 of 6 Norcal call sign, Forgotten.
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There's already one person who has posted on page 1 of this thread that as a private citizen, non-FFL holder, he had a Form 1 approved by the ATF for a new machinegun. Unfortunately, it didn't last very long and ATF quickly identified their error... but he still had it for a short time. Ben - How do you intend to get around the whole "standing" issue? That seems to be how they defeat all the challenges to 922(o). |
“The difference between treason and patriotism is only a matter of dates.”
"And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods."
"And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods."
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Originally Posted By jtb33: There's already one person who has posted on page 1 of this thread that as a private citizen, non-FFL holder, he had a Form 1 approved by the ATF for a new machinegun. Unfortunately, it didn't last very long and ATF quickly identified their error... but he still had it for a short time. Ben - How do you intend to get around the whole "standing" issue? That seems to be how they defeat all the challenges to 922(o). Can't say yet lest they stop me before I get the chance. Soon.* *Is in relative terms. |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
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Originally Posted By Ben: Can't say yet lest they stop me before I get the chance. Soon.* *Is in relative terms. Originally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By jtb33: There's already one person who has posted on page 1 of this thread that as a private citizen, non-FFL holder, he had a Form 1 approved by the ATF for a new machinegun. Unfortunately, it didn't last very long and ATF quickly identified their error... but he still had it for a short time. Ben - How do you intend to get around the whole "standing" issue? That seems to be how they defeat all the challenges to 922(o). Can't say yet lest they stop me before I get the chance. Soon.* *Is in relative terms. I'll try to keep in mind bumping this thread often enough over the next few years to keep it alive. If it's New Year's day 2026 and you haven't had any luck - then I'll start to wonder. |
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Originally Posted By Third_Rail: I'll try to keep in mind bumping this thread often enough over the next few years to keep it alive. If it's New Year's day 2026 and you haven't had any luck - then I'll start to wonder. Originally Posted By Third_Rail: Originally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By jtb33: There's already one person who has posted on page 1 of this thread that as a private citizen, non-FFL holder, he had a Form 1 approved by the ATF for a new machinegun. Unfortunately, it didn't last very long and ATF quickly identified their error... but he still had it for a short time. Ben - How do you intend to get around the whole "standing" issue? That seems to be how they defeat all the challenges to 922(o). Can't say yet lest they stop me before I get the chance. Soon.* *Is in relative terms. I'll try to keep in mind bumping this thread often enough over the next few years to keep it alive. If it's New Year's day 2026 and you haven't had any luck - then I'll start to wonder. Oh, you're from Montana? Get ready to do some work. I need you to start calling your state rep shortly. I'll tell you when. I wrote a bill that is going to be voted on at the end of this session. And it is relevant to this topic. |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
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Originally Posted By Ben: Oh, you're from Montana? Get ready to do some work. I need you to start calling your state rep shortly. I'll tell you when. I wrote a bill that is going to be voted on at the end of this session. And it is relevant to this topic. Originally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By Third_Rail: Originally Posted By Ben: Originally Posted By jtb33: There's already one person who has posted on page 1 of this thread that as a private citizen, non-FFL holder, he had a Form 1 approved by the ATF for a new machinegun. Unfortunately, it didn't last very long and ATF quickly identified their error... but he still had it for a short time. Ben - How do you intend to get around the whole "standing" issue? That seems to be how they defeat all the challenges to 922(o). Can't say yet lest they stop me before I get the chance. Soon.* *Is in relative terms. I'll try to keep in mind bumping this thread often enough over the next few years to keep it alive. If it's New Year's day 2026 and you haven't had any luck - then I'll start to wonder. Oh, you're from Montana? Get ready to do some work. I need you to start calling your state rep shortly. I'll tell you when. I wrote a bill that is going to be voted on at the end of this session. And it is relevant to this topic. Oh excellent. Just let me know! I post in the hometown forum pretty often too. Living in Montana is also why I almost always offer my help with your projects if they're within my ability and understanding. 
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Originally Posted By Ben: Oh, you're from Montana? Get ready to do some work. I need you to start calling your state rep shortly. I'll tell you when. I wrote a bill that is going to be voted on at the end of this session. And it is relevant to this topic. If that passes, it’s going to get pushed hard all through the West and South. |
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Originally Posted By FightingHellfish: If that passes, it’s going to get pushed hard all through the West and South. Originally Posted By FightingHellfish: Originally Posted By Ben: Oh, you're from Montana? Get ready to do some work. I need you to start calling your state rep shortly. I'll tell you when. I wrote a bill that is going to be voted on at the end of this session. And it is relevant to this topic. If that passes, it’s going to get pushed hard all through the West and South. From your lips to God’s ear |
Did you just assume my anatomy? - Cowbell
No Tyrant has ever found itself guilty of tyranny in its own court. - ohland
Weapons of war are our birthright - Dark_zero_x
The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed - Lube
No Tyrant has ever found itself guilty of tyranny in its own court. - ohland
Weapons of war are our birthright - Dark_zero_x
The dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed - Lube
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Originally Posted By Ben: Oh, you're from Montana? Get ready to do some work. I need you to start calling your state rep shortly. I'll tell you when. I wrote a bill that is going to be voted on at the end of this session. And it is relevant to this topic. @Ben It’s not the home guard thing is it ? Looks like that one was shelved 01/28/2023 for later consideration |
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Originally Posted By home_alone1: @Ben It’s not the home guard thing is it ? Looks like that one was shelved 01/28/2023 for later consideration Originally Posted By home_alone1: Originally Posted By Ben: Oh, you're from Montana? Get ready to do some work. I need you to start calling your state rep shortly. I'll tell you when. I wrote a bill that is going to be voted on at the end of this session. And it is relevant to this topic. @Ben It’s not the home guard thing is it ? Looks like that one was shelved 01/28/2023 for later consideration You're looking at the wrong bill. This bill is still in drafting and won't go to committee til next week at the earliest. |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
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There’s pros and cons. Possible new MGs is the huge pro. From seeing the Alaska State Defense Force, there’s no way I’d join. It’s a mix of: VFW guys wanting to relive the glory days (mostly people that never did much while they were in) Security guard mentality people trying to get status Fake “colonels” wanting to be respected and called sir No real mission A fight from the existing state organizations to work with the defense force. Why would they? It would only decrease their administrative power, budgets, etc. State politicians and department heads would need some incentive to actually use the force. Etc ———- With a real mission and serious leadership it would have a better chance of avoiding these traps. One downside is that it reinforces the mentality that MGs are specialized firearms that require special government status to own. When playing the long game how would it back track on that to then allow all civilians to make their own MGs? Good luck. It’s an interesting experiment |
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Originally Posted By Alaska-Shooter: There’s pros and cons. Possible new MGs is the huge pro. From seeing the Alaska State Defense Force, there’s no way I’d join. It’s a mix of: VFW guys wanting to relive the glory days (mostly people that never did much while they were in) Security guard mentality people trying to get status Fake “colonels” wanting to be respected and called sir No real mission A fight from the existing state organizations to work with the defense force. Why would they? It would only decrease their administrative power, budgets, etc. State politicians and department heads would need some incentive to actually use the force. Etc ———- With a real mission and serious leadership it would have a better chance of avoiding these traps. One downside is that it reinforces the mentality that MGs are specialized firearms that require special government status to own. When playing the long game how would it back track on that to then allow all civilians to make their own MGs? Good luck. It’s an interesting experiment Home guard is an interesting idea that is rife with pitfalls as you mentioned. |
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Patience. Remember that I have a full time job, am a reservist, run my own corporation, am on the board of directors for the American Pioneer Corps, am a military advisor to an elected representative, and have two toddlers... I'd rather slowly prepare conditions so that when a move is made I can focus all my energies on that for a short time then step back and let the attorneys handle it. Best to have a solid broadside as the start of action. |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
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Originally Posted By Ben: Patience. Remember that I have a full time job, am a reservist, run my own corporation, am on the board of directors for the American Pioneer Corps, am a military advisor to an elected representative, and have two toddlers... I'd rather slowly prepare conditions so that when a move is made I can focus all my energies on that for a short time then step back and let the attorneys handle it. Best to have a solid broadside as the start of action. I sent you an email via the board. |
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| I would donate 2k$ or more if you can do it. I was there with you at lobby day, and I’m sure with your connections and support with some of the lawyers in the group, you’d have a better chance than most to pull it off. Can’t win if you don’t play! I just bought the new Cryostructure lower for my fightlite beltfed upper. Can I apply for that to be converted to an MG, and when it gets denied, we can take the legal journey together?! |
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Originally Posted By Hopscotch: I would donate 2k$ or more if you can do it. I was there with you at lobby day, and I’m sure with your connections and support with some of the lawyers in the group, you’d have a better chance than most to pull it off. Can’t win if you don’t play! I just bought the new Cryostructure lower for my fightlite beltfed upper. Can I apply for that to be converted to an MG, and when it gets denied, we can take the legal journey together?! Probably not a good idea from Virginia...we will make sure this goes in the most favorable venue possible. Sorry that has been dragging out a bit all...got many projects going simultaneously. |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
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Originally Posted By Ben: Probably not a good idea from Virginia...we will make sure this goes in the most favorable venue possible. Sorry that has been dragging out a bit all...got many projects going simultaneously. Very true. Mine would be from TX though, so hopefully a little more friendly! |
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Originally Posted By CavVet: Kazakhstan ftw! Originally Posted By CavVet: Originally Posted By Ben: Probably not a good idea from Virginia...we will make sure this goes in the most favorable venue possible. Kazakhstan ftw! It is surprisingly easier to accomplish certain things while you are able to adjust timelines based on "I'm stationed overseas right now." |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
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Originally Posted By belchfire: 922(0) is a clear infringement, just don't see how it's stood so long  There's a concise, well-written summary on why the ban has stood so long in the Bronsonzian case document, starting at the bottom of page 5. Right now there's a 27-year old split, disagreement between the various courts that have either ruled for or against the constitutionality of the general NFA ban / 5861(d) prohibitions. It's a football no one wants to catch, so continues to roll around and needs to be settled by the Supreme Court. (And this is a good season for that, post-Bruen.) Boiled down, the document concludes "Since the passage of 18 USC 922(o) in 1986, Section 5861(d) has not, and cannot, raise any revenue as applied to the possession of unregistered machineguns. This fact led the Tenth Circuit to find Section 5861(d) unconstitutional in 1992. Four other circuits (including the Ninth Circuit in this case) disagree, but the reasoning in support of those decisions is flawed and illogical." |
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The fact that congress said on record during 1934 NFA bill that they had no right to ban them, only "regulate" them to people that pay the tax, should be enough to say the Hughes Ban goes against history and tradition. I would as most be alright with baby steps that allowed new one be MG's to be bought and registered again. I would join in a class action if one were put forward to undo Hughes. |
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Originally Posted By Projectinfinity: Any updates? Attached File |
| Even though the state in which I live does not generally allow select fire weapons (other than law enforcement or class 3 sales demo), if I thought someone was going to file suits that had even a snowball's chance in hell of overturning the Hughes amendment, I would want to contribute to such an endeavor. |
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How'd I miss this thread ..... Ben Just a thought. Could you set up credit card processing acct under some kind of corp & let us subscribe to the effort? A lot of us cant throw 5k at once but could so 10 50 or a hundy or ? a month recurring subscription & not miss it. It raises $ for the cause & gives you a predictable month to month income to plan the expenditures. Do quarterly updates or something to increase awareness and subscriptions. |
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Originally Posted By Ben: Specifically as to whether I can accomplish at least one of the following: 1) Force ATF to approve a Form 1 for a new MG in the form of a registered AR lower via court or administrative means, or 2) Force ATF to open the registry in general for post 1986 MGs via court order after they refuse to approve a Form 1 MG for me, or 3) Force ATF to open the registry to new MGs in at least one federal district, allowing new Form 1 registrations, with ATF settling there and refusing to appeal to a higher court for fear of losing nationally. What is it worth? The lot of you covering attorney's fees and beer for life after the fact vs me paying all fees plus owing you what if I lose? 
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: I don't think it's owners, but I suspect that some of the big dealers with large inventories might be in that category. Originally Posted By Gamma762: Originally Posted By NAM: Originally Posted By Deerhurst: So many people rejecting the idea surprises me, especially in the MG world. What is it? Don't want to loose the "value" of your transferrable? You never really know the answer I til you ask for push the subject. In lieu of violating the CoC, let's just say you're talking out your ass. I have yet to meet a transferrable MG owner that would not gladly lose the value of any currently owned MG in order to be able to legally make or acquire new MGs. I don't think it's owners, but I suspect that some of the big dealers with large inventories might be in that category. THIS! I have been a CL3 and an owner since the early 80s,I would love for the registery to be reopened AINT GONNA HAPPEN get over it.You will be lucky to keep your semi autos with these marxists pieces of shit in charge. |
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Originally Posted By VK2XXM: THIS! I have been a CL3 and an owner since the early 80s,I would love for the registery to be reopened AINT GONNA HAPPEN get over it.You will be lucky to keep your semi autos with these marxists pieces of shit in charge. Originally Posted By VK2XXM: Originally Posted By Gamma762: Originally Posted By NAM: Originally Posted By Deerhurst: So many people rejecting the idea surprises me, especially in the MG world. What is it? Don't want to loose the "value" of your transferrable? You never really know the answer I til you ask for push the subject. In lieu of violating the CoC, let's just say you're talking out your ass. I have yet to meet a transferrable MG owner that would not gladly lose the value of any currently owned MG in order to be able to legally make or acquire new MGs. I don't think it's owners, but I suspect that some of the big dealers with large inventories might be in that category. THIS! I have been a CL3 and an owner since the early 80s,I would love for the registery to be reopened AINT GONNA HAPPEN get over it.You will be lucky to keep your semi autos with these marxists pieces of shit in charge.  there is no scenario wherein we lose Semi-Autos unless it is because we were replacing them with select fire weapons.Your defeatism does not become you. |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
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I'll take the bet. I'll bet you can't do sh!t before November 2024. My caveat is that it can't just be a single action whereupon you found a loophole arising from some paperwork error, etc. that allows one single weapon to be added. Must be a general opening. I.E. Add a newly produced machine gun to the registry. RCA |
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Originally Posted By Ben: there is no scenario wherein we lose Semi-Autos unless it is because we were replacing them with select fire weapons.Your defeatism does not become you. I agree 100%…. Well assuming the constitution still matters, and state constitutions do as well. Been wanting to get WA back to letting F/A weapons be OK to purchase (can’t buy one since 1994). We gained silencers and SBR’s in the last 10 years or so…. And now just got hosed badly on a new state mag ban and AWB. One step forward, 2 steps back…. We should win in court- someday, eventually. Just wondering how long it will take to fight it out in court. I would bet that if anyone can make it happen though, it would be you. Let us know when there is more you can share! |
2021 can’t come soon enough!
Edit- well maybe 2020 wasn’t so bad after all.....
Edit- well maybe 2020 wasn’t so bad after all.....
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Originally Posted By tac556: I agree 100%…. Well assuming the constitution still matters, and state constitutions do as well. Been wanting to get WA back to letting F/A weapons be OK to purchase (can’t buy one since 1994). We gained silencers and SBR’s in the last 10 years or so…. And now just got hosed badly on a new state mag ban and AWB. One step forward, 2 steps back…. We should win in court- someday, eventually. Just wondering how long it will take to fight it out in court. I would bet that if anyone can make it happen though, it would be you. Let us know when there is more you can share! It will be a long fight... look at CA. Decades of a ban, but now only making reasonable headway now. Fortunately their head way can spear our fight to get our rights back. I'm just wondering what Judge Benitez is doing.. he's taking his sweet old time to make his ruling. |
Goodness gracious some of you don't have enough patience to make it through March Madness, much less wait through the setup and execution of a legal fight.  |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
https://americanpioneercorps.org
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
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1K says that your noble efforts are doomed to failure by bureaucratic inertia and design.....but, I wish you well in your endeavors! Now the terms: You send me a notarized copy of an approved F1 for a new made machinegun that is transferable to the general public, and I will send you $1000.00 in any form of legal payment you desire. 18Z50 |
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Originally Posted By 18B30: 1K says that your noble efforts are doomed to failure by bureaucratic inertia and design.....but, I wish you well in your endeavors! Now the terms: You send me a notarized copy of an approved F1 for a new made machinegun that is transferable to the general public, and I will send you $1000.00 in any form of legal payment you desire. 18Z50 And instead if it simply goes to court, the court opinion ordering the registry be opened? That counts just as well? Easier than a notary since it will 100% be in the news.  Any other takers? |
Lightning from the Sky, Thunder from the Sea!
Twitter/Instagram: benunsuppressed
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Originally Posted By Ben: And instead if it simply goes to court, the court opinion ordering the registry be opened? That counts just as well? Easier than a notary since it will 100% be in the news. Any other takers? Sorry, my monies will be going to register MGs. |
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Who wants to make a bet with me re:new MG sales? (Page 4 of 7)
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