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Posted: 8/22/2015 7:19:21 PM EDT
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Has anyone converted their older generation Steyr Aug into a newer Styer AUG A3? I have a Steyr AUG with Qualified trigger pack (or box, I forget which) in a A1, and I'm debating moving it to an A3 and adding newer optics. The F/A A3 conversion costs around $4000 because not only do you have to buy the host (which only comes in a semi auto configuration) but then you also have to buy the F/A durable parts, such as the anti-bounce rod, and swap out the semi auto parts, as shooting the semi auto parts in F/A will cause the gun to have a disastrous failure, according to Pete, the Steyr guy. I don't shoot the AUG much. I only bought it because I wanted one for my collection, as I'm a big fan of Die Hard. Any opinions? Was it worth the upgrade? Video of me shooting my under appreciated AUG: https://vimeo.com/130004414 Btw, how do I post video on this site, and make it play in a box? I can only link the video. |
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only works on youtube viddys
make the link hot https://vimeo.com/130004414 eta well that didn't work... |
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I have a Steyr AUG A3 CQC with a Qualified Sear.
I bought one because I wanted something different as I already has a bunch of 5.56 caliber machineguns (M16s, AC556, FNC, HK33, HK53, etc) However, my A3 AUG is now one of my favorite 5.56 hosts. It shouldnt cost $4,000 to convert an A3 to full auto if you already have a sear in a pack. All you need is the full auto cocking piece and the antibounce rods + springs and the conversion work is pretty straight forward. An A3 can be had for $1600ish on GB and the rods, springs, and cocking piece are maybe $250. (although they can be a bit of a challenge to source at times) Pete's a great guy and does extremely quality work...he did my CQC conversion on my A3 after I had already set it up for full auto. However, the way some folks set up conversion sear guns for full auto is to use all full auto parts, including a full auto stock. My personal take is that this method for conversion using a full auto stock leaves you in a legal gray area. The full auto stock wont fit a semi-auto receiver as the stock latch is different width's between the full auto stock and the semi-auto stock. (The full auto stock latch being wider). The stock latch width cutout on the receiver is the mechanism that differentiates a semi auto AUG receiver from a full auto receiver. (similar to how an HK receiver has a shelf to preclude the installation of a factory full auto push pin trigger pack.) The semi auto stock wont allow a factory full auto hammer pack to be installed as there a blocking protrusions in the semi stock that prevent its full insertion, and semi auto receiver normally wont fit into a full auto stock as the full auto stock latch is too wide to engage the stock latch cutout on the semi auto receiver. These mechanical difference in stock latch width and semi auto stock blocking bars is what keeps you in the clear legally. To use all factory full auto parts you have to modify a full auto stock so that a semi receiver will fit. (this is usually done by narrowing a full auto stock latch to then fit a semi receiver with its more narrow stock latch cutout) The theory is that that as long as you keep your registered full auto hammer pack/sear in this combination of modded parts its ok (i.e. modded full auto stock, factory full auto carrier, semi receiver, registered hammer/sear pack). However, to me this would be analogous to saying you can modify an HK full auto trigger pack to fit a semi receiver (i.e just like a DLO trigger box), use all factory full auto parts, but have a registered conversion sear in that modded full auto pack and be in the clear. I dont know of anybody that thinks that combination would be ok in the HK world. The reason being is you could remove the registered HK conversion sear from the pack and you are now left with an unregistered modded full auto pack to which you could then drop an unregulated $10 factory HK sear into the pack and essentially have another fully functional machinegun pack as it will still fit/function any semi host regardless of whether you registered conversion sear is in there. With the AUG combination, if you remove the conversion sear based hammer pack from the modded full auto stock, anybody would then drop in an unregulated AUG full auto hammer pack and have a machinegun as the modded full auto AUG stock will still accept a full auto factory hammerpack. Essentially in my personal opinion the modded full auto stock becomes a unregistered full auto conversion device unto itself once you allow a semi auto receiver to fit in it. There was a post on subguns two months back by a guy who had this exact conversion done, it was then pointed out by others (not me) that his conversion method was legally in a gray area and it was recommended for him to take down all his pictures and eventually the whole thread was nuked. The owner's follow up post asking for help/guidance on what to do is still on the subguns board from 6/29/2015. I would certainly recommend Pete to do the host gun prep work if you want to send an A3 out to get setup with a conversion sear, but I would insist the conversion be done keeping the semi auto stock and have him just add anti-bounce rods/springs and full auto cocking piece to your semi auto carrier and get it timed to work together. I have acouple thousand rounds via my A3 AUG without any issues and I bought the parts and did the "traditional" conversion method using a semi auto stock and added the minimum required full auto parts (cocking piece to the carrier and bounce rods). Overall its about 2 hours worth of work give or take. I have another post on this forum detailing all that needs to be done. Pic of my A3 CQC. I am in centex as well if you want to check it out in person before going through the motions. 
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I got the $4000 number from Pete, as that was the cost of the host gun plus all the F/A parts. Maybe I misunderstood him, but I'm pretty sure that's the number I got. To be honest, I lost you on your explanation. If you don't use a full auto stock, then you can't fit in the F/A parts, but you're saying it's legally grey to use the F/A stock? The semi auto stock won't fit the full auto parts, but the only way to stay completely out of the grey is to use a semi auto stock? Is your AUG in the pic a F/A stock or semi auto stock? I'm confused. |
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I got the $4000 number from Pete, as that was the cost of the host gun plus all the F/A parts. Maybe I misunderstood him, but I'm pretty sure that's the number I got. To be honest, I lost you on your explanation. If you don't use a full auto stock, then you can't fit in the F/A parts, but you're saying it's legally grey to use the F/A stock? The semi auto stock won't fit the full auto parts, but the only way to stay completely out of the grey is to use a semi auto stock? Is your AUG in the pic a F/A stock or semi auto stock? I'm confused. The stock in the picture is a semi-auto stock and is the original semi stock that came with the semi A3 in the picture. There are two Steyr "Factory" setups. Semi Auto: Semi Auto Stock. The semi auto stock is distinguished by the following characteristics. 1. "Narrow" semi auto stock latch channel in the receiver. (This feature precludes the installation of a semi receiver into a full auto stock as the full auto stock cross latch will not close/engage on a semi receiver) 2. Longer stock guide rods. These are the two metal rods inside the stock that the carrier "rides" on. (The longer guide rods preclude running a carrier with a set of factory full auto anti-bounce rods) 3. Blocking protrusions inside the stock which prevent the installation of a factory full auto hammer pack. (these are similar to the shelf on a semi-auto HK which precludes the installation of a full auto factory push pin triggerpack) These three combined features are what make a semi-auto AUG....a semi auto AUG. The semi-auto AUG also comes with a carrier that doesnt have anti-bounce rods installed, nor a full auto cocking/trip piece installed. Full Auto: 1. Full Auto Stock has the factory wide stock latch. This wide latch will stop you from putting a semi-auto receiver into a full auto stock (which also happens to accepts a factory full auto hammerpack) 2. Shorter Guide Rods/Pins that allow for enough clearance to run factory antibounce rods inside a AUG carrier 3. No blocking protrusions so a unregulated factory full auto hammerpack will drop right in. A carrier that has the antibounce rods and full auto cocking piece installed. There are two conversion methods. The original "traditional" method and what could be called the new "all full auto parts" method. The "traditional" conversion method doesnt negate any of the ATF approved physical characteristics that make a semi-auto AUG still classified as a semi-auto AUG. At a high level this is how it works. 1. To get around the stock latch differences you still use a semi-auto stock. Semi receiver drops right in as it normally would. Host gun comes with one of these semi auto stocks. No gray area there. 2. To get around the clearance issues on the anti-bounce rods, you shorten the antibounce rods by ~1 inch. So now you still have the longer semi-auto stock guide rods but you have made clearance by just slightly shortening the anti-bounce rods instead. The bounce rod mod works like this. The carrier has to travel say 10 inches back from in battery to the back of the stock in order to pick up a new cartridge. The semi auto guide rods in the stock are 7" long so you have 3" of free space (out of your 10" of needed travel). The factory anti-bounce rods are 4" long. (7" stock rods + 4" anti-bounce rods = 11") You are now 1" inches of travel too short as you have 11" of tolerance stackup. However, if you take the anti-bounce rods and cut 1" off of them you now have 7" + 3" = 10" which perfectly equals the carrier travel needed to scoop up a new round. From a function standpoint the also gun doesnt miss the one inch of anti-bounce rod material that is removed. (its like running an H2 buffer vs. an H3 buffer in an M16) 3. To get around the protrusions in the stock that wont allow a factory full auto hammerpack, Fleming and Sellmeyer made conversion sears that worked inside a semi-auto hammerpack.....which just so happens to perfectly into a semi-auto stock. 4. The final piece is to add the drop on full auto cocking piece to the semi-auto carrier. It snaps on in 60 seconds to the underside of the carrier to trip the sear. There is also a touch bit of work to time the sear to the cocking piece as well. You end up with a gun with all the semi-auto defining features still intact (stock protrusions that prevent the install of a full auto hammerpack, rod length in the stock, semi-auto stock latch, etc.) but with the exception of the new conversion sear based hammerpack (which is why the sear is the registered conversion part). In this method, remove the registered conversion sear/hammerpack and the gun reverts back to a semi-auto. Sell off the host gun and unless somebody else has a fleming or qualified conversion sear/hammerpack they cant make it run full auto. Purchase a full auto hammer pack off gunbroker and it won't physically fit into the mix. This conversion method works 100%. It takes more time to do, uses less new expensive parts, but is the safest legally. It also ends up being the cheapest method as it utilizes most of the semi-auto parts the host gun comes with. (like the stock, bolt, carrier body) The "other" full auto stock method works like this. 1. You buy a new A3 AUG and throw away/set aside everything but the receiver. 2. You buy a brand new factory full auto bolt and carrier with Anti-Bounce rods and cocking piece installed. (keep in mind the bolt, firing pin, bolt cam, etc. from the semi bcg is identical and the factory full auto and semi-auto carrier "body" are for all intents identical as well. 3. You buy a brand new full auto "modified" stock so that a semi receiver will fit in it....... Step 3 is the gray area because now you no longer need a conversion sear based hammer pack to make a machinegun. With a full auto carrier + modded full auto stock + semi receiver all you are now missing is an unregulated full auto factory hammerpack, which anybody can buy off the web. All the prior mechanical protection the semi-auto AUG had is now gone. Sure you can install your conversion hammer pack in it as well and the argument is that since the conversion pack is installed you are safe with the rest of these mods. (just dont ever have a factory full auto hammerpack in your possession) Think of it like this. Lets say you bought an HK94 and a HK conversion sear and were going to send it to a smith to install the two together. However, instead of installing the sear into a prepper HK94 semi-auto triggerpack the smith says, "Hey its much more like a factory setup if I just remove the shelf, drill the front push pin hole and install your conversion sear into an unmodified factory full auto pack". Bonus you are using all factory full auto parts now. Sure there is a registered conversion part in the mix but would you want a HK sear host conversion where they drilled the front push pin hole so they could use all factory full auto parts with the exception of your conversion sear? The example above is similar mechanically to what you are doing by allowing a semi AUG receiver to mate into a full auto stock. Sure you are using a registered conversion sear in the mix but nothing precludes you from removing your conversion sear/hammerpack just dropping a factory full auto hammer pack into the gun either. Your conversion sear isnt really "special" anymore, as it could be replaced with a $250 full auto hammer pack purchased off gunbroker. Just like an HK with a front push pin drilled that can accept a factory full auto HK trigger pack, it no longer really needs your conversion sear to work. The only reason the AUG method is a "gray" area and not fully "black" is the mod is to the stock and not the receiver. The traditional conversion method is the safest legally and works 100% if done right, so in my opinion why tread into the gray area with a modded full auto stock that now mechanically allows a semi receiver to be mated to a factory full auto hammerpack? Not to mention it costs $4000 vs. $2000. |
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That's the best explanation I have ever seen in this issue. So going your route, the gun functions fine in full auto? You are able to mag dump with no safety issues? I remember reading (and being warned by Pete) that without the proper F/A parts, mag dumps are not to be performed, due to the possibility of a disastrous failure. I like the look of the CQC. Has probably the route I will take. Many thanks for your explanation |
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That's the best explanation I have ever seen in this issue. So going your route, the gun functions fine in full auto? You are able to mag dump with no safety issues? I remember reading (and being warned by Pete) that without the proper F/A parts, mag dumps are not to be performed, due to the possibility of a disastrous failure. I like the look of the CQC. Has probably the route I will take. Many thanks for your explanation There are a couple of issues that Pete is probably talking about. You really should use anti-bounce rods installed into the carrier on any full auto setup. These function in an identical manner to the weights inside an M16 H, H2, or H3 buffer. Essentially the reciprocating weights in both the AUG and M16 keep the carrier from bouncing open during full auto fire. On an AUG the rods are solid ~5 long/thin tungsten rods that "nest" inside the carrier recoil spring tubes vs. sliding weights inside a buffer in an M16. There is also a small spring that goes on the front that keeps the anti-bounce rod off the front of the carrier tube so that it can slam forward as the carrier closes. See pic below I put together a while back for somebody asking a similar question on how they install and work in an AUG. 
The only difference on a factory full auto setup vs a conversion semi setup is the antibounce rods wont allow the carrier to come back properly if installed into a semi carrier and run in a semi auto stock. As mentioned above you shorten the antibounce rods by about ~1 out of there roughly 5 inch in length. Sure there is slightly less mass on the anti-bounce rods but we are taking about a pretty small amount. It is a bit more labor intensive to set up as you want to remove just the minimum amount, which means disassemble, cut, test, and disassemble, cut, test, etc. until you get the proper clearance. Issue #1 is that if you dont have any anti-bounce rods installed its akin to running an M16 with a cheap "carbine" buffer that has no sliding weights in it to prevent bolt bounce. The reality in my estimation is that the AUG has a rotating bolt just like an M16 and the firing pin cant reach the cartridge unless the bolt is fully rotated and locked into the barrel extension. Is it theoretically possible to have an out of battery detonation due to the carrier not being fully closed when the hammer hits the firing pin....maybe....but the reality is that you will experience bolt bounce symptoms identical to an M16 with erratic burst fire followed by a hammer down with a light primer strike on the cartridge vs. some sort of catestrophic out of battery detonation. However, in AUG if it does happen its right under your face vs. up front like an M16. Issue #2 is when people do the anti bounce rod conversion improperly. They either dont mod the rods at all or chop off not enought thinking half an inch, etc. is fine. Technically in my experiece the semi recoil springs need a couple coils removed to make room from the anti-bounce springs up front. What happens in this case is the bolt goes back and instead of bottoming out on the "donut" buffers at the base of the stock guide rods, the carrier comes to a stop short of the donut buffers at the base of the guide rods. What happens in this case is you damage the stock, the recoil spring, and/or the carrier as the bolt is designed to stop on the the donut buffers at the base of the stock guide rods....not stop short because it ran short and out of room. In this case you will quickly damage components (stock, recoil springs, etc.) in short order if its short stroking and not stopping on the buffers. You could also have folks who have the rods cut too much, (i.e. hey I will just chop them in half) not leaving enough mass to prevent bolt bounce. I get where Pete is coming from. Its propably alot more labor intesive to do the original type of mod correctly vs. just putting the full auto stock latch in a mill and taking off a mm or so and then just sell you all the rest of the factory full auto parts (stock , carrier, etc.) As mentioned you do get a more "factory" correct setup with more factory full auto parts and full length anti-bounce rods. I really like Pete and he is a great resouce to the very small NFA AUG community. That said, I just personally didnt feel comfortable with the modded full auto stock conversion option after talking to a couple of other AUG experts. I also wanted to potentiall move my hammer pack around to different hosts in the future (i.e. 9MM and a Classis A1) which would leave me with a modded full auto stock/s with no conversion sear based hammer pack installed. The only reason I mentioned any of this was you mentioned you were considering this conversion path and I felt bad for the guy on subguns back in June who spent probably $4,000 on a conversion of a A3/M1 AUG only to be told that he has something now he should really keep in the shadows due to the way the conversion was done, not to mention the potential legal implications if ever questioned (however remote that possibility may be) It sounds like Pete feels comfortable with the full auto stock mod conversion method as long as you have a conversion sear in the mix, myself and other see a potential legal gray area..... whether you feel comfortable with it is only a question you can answer. As to your question, does my AUG run? F*ck yeah it runs, mag dumps and all. Damn thing is like the energizer bunny of 5.56 assault rifles. I cant recall a single failure in acouple thousand rounds I have put through it over the past couple years. The CQC variant also put a touch bit more mass up front so there is virtually zero muzzle climb as well. Only other thing I would mention since on a previous post you mentioned you reload. The AUG needs full power NATO spec ammo to run properly. If you run reloads that are any way under NATO power spec you will end up with a damaged stock as an ejected cartidge at some point wont clear the ejection port and when the bolt comes forward the case gets crushed into the polymer stock taking a chunk out with it. |
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Could the semiauto carrier rods simply be either cut down to the shorter fullauto length or replaced? Seems this would simplify the conversion process, make the mechanics more factory correct.
Thank you for a great explanation jbntx; I thought I understood AUG conversions until I read this thread. Great info! |
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Could the semiauto carrier rods simply be either cut down to the shorter fullauto length or replaced? Seems this would simplify the conversion process, make the mechanics more factory correct. Thank you for a great explanation jbntx; I thought I understood AUG conversions until I read this thread. Great info! You can't replace the stock rods as they are molded in and non-removeable. However, theoretically you could cut them. The challenge with cutting them is there isnt really a good way to get down into the stock to accurately cut the semi stock rods shorter. I actually asked about that when talking to a couple knowledgable folks about how to perform the host prep/conversion. The inevitable answer from more than one source was "maybe" but its much easier and more accurate to just cut the anti-bounce rods shorter as everything works just fine minus an inch or so off the rods. After going through the conversion/prep process, you could maybe cut them if you zip tied up one of those dremel tool extension units into a piece of bar stock and stuck it down the front of the stock with the receiver removed. However it would be tough to probably not scar up the inside of the stock and/or cut the stock rods accurately to the same length. Either way you are going to fill the inside of the stock with metal shaving mixed with cutting wheel grit. If you cut them too short you ruin an expensive stock or too long and you still have the same issue with the carrier bottoming out to early. So you probably have to go a 1/8 to 1/4 inch at a time and measure and test. You may run into issues if you cut them slightly different lengths as well. Cutting the anti-bounce rods is a bit more foregiving as well as if you cut them 1/4 inch too much you are probably just fine. Cut the stock guide rods too short and the carrier might not engage them properly anymore. From a financial perspective, if you screw up the anti-bouce rods, they are like $50 a set, and a new stock is like 4X that. If I was in the business of performing AUG conversions you could probably set up some sort of measuring/cutting jig to accurately and easily cut them, then try and wash all the crap out of the stock.. However, for a one off conversion/prep setup its easier to cut the rods (thats what everybody told me anyway) and I can verify it works 100%. |
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JB, so did you do the conversion yourself? I'm thinking of having Pete do my conversion using the semi auto stock. I wouldn't be comfortable filing down the rods myself. I did it all myself. If you are mechanically inclinded and have some experice doing gunsmitthing and have your own shop its really not all that bad. You need a decent vice, a torch (to loosen the thruster caps), wrenches, and a good 4 or 5" high speed cutoff wheel saw to cut the tungsten rods to length, eyepro, etc. I have been working on guns since I was a kid and have a decent personal shop setup with a small test fire range so I didnt find the process all that challenging. The hardest part was finding a set of anti-bounce rods and full auto cocking pieces as Pete was out of these parts for at least 6+ months while I waited for his order from Steyr to come in. This was about two+ years ago and he had a handful of guns he was trying to convert stacked up at the time. I eventually got the bounce rods +spring, and cocking pieces elsewhere and did the conversion as I just bought a qualified sear with no host gun. Here is a thread I posted in back from 2014 with more details about how the conversion is mechanically done if you are interested. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_22/414987_How_were_Steyr_AUG_FA_conversions_physically_done_.html&page=1 Pete is the man when it comes to AUGs so if you go with him (regardless of the conversion method) you know you will be getting a gun that runs at the end. |
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