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Posted: 3/2/2013 2:56:43 AM EDT
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I know ATF is not logical but imagine this:
Take rifle with an over thick bbl. 16.25 inches long. Put the bbl in a CNC machine and turn it into a one piece, properly shaped bbl that is 11 inches long with a 5.25 inch moderator. If the bbl does not get quieter, would it be illegal? |
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As BB notes, it's been done. ATF looks at function, not appearance.
However, why would you do all that? Also remember the GSG 22SD fiasco -- even though the moderator was fake, ATF required them all to be replaced. The reg is, if with any type of ammo, the reduction is measurable in any way -- if it decreases sound by even 0.0000001 decibel only when the gun is held sideways in a pine forest on the north slope of a mountain -- it's a silencer, and thus is Title 2. So to be sure, you would have to test every possible ammo in every conceivable situation, to make sure it does not ever reduce sound levels. YMMV. |
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Yes but in my thought experiment, there really isn't a moderator. It's just an oddly shaped barrel that has the same sound level as a normal shaped barrel.
Look at it this way, what if the barrel was louder than a normal 16 inch barrel but quieter than 11 inches? What you effectively have is a moderated 11 inch barrel but it's louder than the 16 inch blank you started with. |
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Isn't there a company that makes 10/22 barrels with a mock suppressor profile? Yup. Tactical Innovations. They call it a weighted barrel, but it looks just like a short barrel with a suppressor ... Though it is turned from a single barrel blank 16.5" long. Here's the stainless version (they also make a blued one): http://www.tacticalinc.com/sbr-suppressed-profile-br165-stainless-116-twist-brweighted-taper-10220174-barrel-p-1765.html |
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Isn't there a company that makes 10/22 barrels with a mock suppressor profile? Yup. Tactical Innovations. They call it a weighted barrel, but it looks just like a short barrel with a suppressor ... Though it is turned from a single barrel blank 16.5" long. Here's the stainless version (they also make a blued one): http://www.tacticalinc.com/sbr-suppressed-profile-br165-stainless-116-twist-brweighted-taper-10220174-barrel-p-1765.html Yes, but my barrel wouldn't be just for looks, it would have 11 inches of rifled barrel, and 5 inches of 'moderator.' But its made and sold as a one piece16 inch barrel with sound characteristics the same as a 16 inch barrel. What I'm trying to achieve is a different way of looking at an 11 inch moderated barrel. Looking at it like a 16 inch un-moderated barrel. |
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Isn't there a company that makes 10/22 barrels with a mock suppressor profile? Yup. Tactical Innovations. They call it a weighted barrel, but it looks just like a short barrel with a suppressor ... Though it is turned from a single barrel blank 16.5" long. Here's the stainless version (they also make a blued one): http://www.tacticalinc.com/sbr-suppressed-profile-br165-stainless-116-twist-brweighted-taper-10220174-barrel-p-1765.html Yes, but my barrel wouldn't be just for looks, it would have 11 inches of rifled barrel, and 5 inches of 'moderator.' But its made and sold as a one piece16 inch barrel with sound characteristics the same as a 16 inch barrel. What I'm trying to achieve is a different way of looking at an 11 inch moderated barrel. Looking at it like a 16 inch un-moderated barrel. I don't see the point. If it is still 16" long and sounds like a 16", why go to all the trouble, just to loose velocity? |
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Are you talking about doing what SIG did with the MPX-C carbine? I had to look that one up. I wouldnt trust the ATF's approval (for very long) on that one. Just spend the $200 on a tax stamp. Tax evasion/unregistered silencers are nothing to mess around with. |
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Sig MPX carbine
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/sig-mpx-c.aspx |
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I don't see the point. If it is still 16" long and sounds like a 16", why go to all the trouble, just to loose velocity? 
Why would he lose any velocity? He's talking about re-profile the barrel's exterior, nothing will be done to the bore. I don't know that I would consider it worthwhile, but it's better than welding an extension to the end of the barrel. It's the same thing as a slip-over, just one piece. ~Augee |
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why wouldn't you just take a regular barrel, thread it and permanently attach a fake moderator to it?
somebody already actually sells a copy of the moderator that serves as a flashider (instead of the world's least effective suppressor) be a heck of a lot easier than trying to turn some massive blank down plus you could get both ready made and not have the barrel getting all twisted out of shape from carving so much material off it |
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why wouldn't you just take a regular barrel, thread it and permanently attach a fake moderator to it? somebody already actually sells a copy of the moderator that serves as a flashider (instead of the world's least effective suppressor) be a heck of a lot easier than trying to turn some massive blank down plus you could get both ready made and not have the barrel getting all twisted out of shape from carving so much material off it Because now you have changed the sound signature and made it illegal. If you make the barrel my way, you have not moderated the sound, the barrel is as it was made. I have an XM177 clone I built with a fake moderator permanently attached to a a short barrel. If the barrel was built my way, I would have a real moderator and would not have changed the sound signature of the barrel. It would never have been louder, it have had the same sound as the day it was made and I would not have to pay the 200 bucks, waited six months and had to carry paperwork every time I took the rifle out. |
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I don't get it
how could a big flashhider that's made to look like a moderator externally be considered a suppressor? You don't even need for the fake modeator to be solid steel. they make big fake cans for the MAC10 crowd, they look like an old sionics 2 stage can but they cost $40 and require no tax stamp. because the fake can has no barrel holes or baffles inside according to this thread, the MAC guys who want a fake can should turn the fake can and barrel out of one gigantic barrel blank, end up with a gun that weighs 80 lbs. maybe you don't realize that an actual moderator had suppressor-like holes inside it and actually modifies the report of the gun like a suppressor the only difference between a moderator and a suppressor is that the moderator does such a marginal job at suppressing also, if you don't want to geta tax stamp, you're going to have to comply with the rules on barrel length and overall length. It doesn't matter how many pieces the barrel is. |
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I don't get it how could a big flashhider that's made to look like a moderator externally be considered a suppressor? You don't even need for the fake modeator to be solid steel. they make big fake cans for the MAC10 crowd, they look like an old sionics 2 stage can but they cost $40 and require no tax stamp. because the fake can has no barrel holes or baffles inside according to this thread, the MAC guys who want a fake can should turn the fake can and barrel out of one gigantic barrel blank, end up with a gun that weighs 80 lbs. maybe you don't realize that an actual moderator had suppressor-like holes inside it and actually modifies the report of the gun like a suppressor the only difference between a moderator and a suppressor is that the moderator does such a marginal job at suppressing also, if you don't want to geta tax stamp, you're going to have to comply with the rules on barrel length and overall length. It doesn't matter how many pieces the barrel is. No, you don't get it. The barrel I'm envisioning is dimensionally and functionally identical to a short barrel with a moderator installed. The difference is that it was built that way in one piece and the sound signature has never been altered. It's never been louder or quieter so there is no "moderation" of the sound, therefore, it's not NFA. |
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I don't get it how could a big flashhider that's made to look like a moderator externally be considered a suppressor? ngth. It doesn't matter how many pieces the barrel is. No, you don't get it. The barrel I'm envisioning is dimensionally and functionally identical to a short barrel with a moderator installed. The difference is that it was built that way in one piece and the sound signature has never been altered. It's never been louder or quieter so there is no "moderation" of the sound, therefore, it's not NFA. Here's two possibilities: 1. Barrel and fake moderator are turned on lathe as one piece 2. Barrel and fake moderator are made in two pieces and permanently attached (pinned or soldered) together. People are already doing option No.2 without needing to pay any tax stamp, so what exactly is option no. 1 going to accomplish? Are you not aware that the actual Colt moderator has baffles inside it just like any other suppressor? That's why you need a stamp for it, becuase of the holes in the barrel and the baffles. Bushmaster made a fake moderator that slides on and a couple guys have made fake ones that look 100% authentic, complete with welding and flats. In the $50 price range. |
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by the way, the ATF originally did not consider the original moderator to be a suppressor because it was mostly intended to increase back pressure
it only attenuates about 2 db of sound, which is basically no change to your ear but it is is built just like a little tiny suppressor with baffles and everything I guess the ATF did not want to have to make any sort of tricky distinction between moderator and suppressor, so they changed gears and called it a suppressor |
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nevermind...reread the original post and now am not 100% sure on the exact intent. well, that makes two of us I'm at 0% sure OP is thinking exactly what this guy said he did. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_22/393649_Thought_experiment.html&page=1#i3665240 |
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Well, the OP thinks that pinning a fake moderator to the barrel would be illegal but turning one on a barrel blank would be legal.
it would be legal either way. maybe some guys don't realize that the NFA registered moderators have actual suppressor baffles in them. it's not just a big flashider |
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Well, the OP thinks that pinning a fake moderator to the barrel would be illegal but turning one on a barrel blank would be legal. it would be legal either way. maybe some guys don't realize that the NFA registered moderators have actual suppressor baffles in them. it's not just a big flashider The ATF also made GSG replace a crapload of fake suppressor barrel shrouds because they could be turned around and stuffed full of washers and welded shut if you wanted to turn them into actual illegal suppressors. |
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The ATF also made GSG replace a crapload of fake suppressor barrel shrouds because they could be turned around and stuffed full of washers and welded shut if you wanted to turn them into actual illegal suppressors. It was my impression that ATF went after the GSG rifle's "slip-over" fake suppressor, because it could be installed on a GSG pistol. The resulting contraption would result in a pistol with a very long, single-chambered "silencer", which although very inefficient, would meet the definition of a "silencer". |
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As far as the OP, my impression is that he is envisioning a "short" barrel with an integral "real" moderator, the net result being either as loud or louder than a non-NFA (presumably) 16" barrel. For example, an 11.5" AR barrel with a permanently-attached fake moderator, which measures out to 16", is significantly louder than a standard 16" AR barrel. The OP's barrel assembly would have the same sound level as the 16" AR barrel, i.e. it would be "quieter" than the 11.5" + permanent fake moderator. The thought being that the 11.5" + fake moderator is "louder than necessary for its length", and the real moderator would make it have the same sound characteristics as a standard 16" barrel. The fact that a real moderator meeting these design parameters could not technically be manufactured as one piece with a barrel is what makes this a "thought exercise".
ETA: Due to the legal restrictions on its relative "performance", the moderator in question would have to be extremely inefficient, most likely just being through-bored with a 1/4" hole for .223 caliber. In other words, no fancy baffles or chambers to reduce the sound more than that of the regular rifled tube it replaced to achieve a 16" barrel length. |
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As far as the OP, my impression is that he is envisioning a "short" barrel with an integral "real" moderator, the net result being either as loud or louder than a non-NFA (presumably) 16" barrel. For example, an 11.5" AR barrel with a permanently-attached fake moderator, which measures out to 16", is significantly louder than a standard 16" AR barrel. The OP's barrel assembly would have the same sound level as the 16" AR barrel, i.e. it would be "quieter" than the 11.5" + permanent fake moderator. The thought being that the 11.5" + fake moderator is "louder than necessary for its length", and the real moderator would make it have the same sound characteristics as a standard 16" barrel. The fact that a real moderator meeting these design parameters could not technically be manufactured as one piece with a barrel is what makes this a "thought exercise". While a moderator for this purpose could be created as a separate component, while it was separate from the intended barrel, it could conceivably be used on another barrel and/or firearm in a way which would cause it to be a NFA regulated silencer. ETA: Due to the legal restrictions on its relative "performance", the moderator in question would have to be extremely inefficient, most likely just being through-bored with a 1/4" hole for .223 caliber. In other words, no fancy baffles or chambers to reduce the sound more than that of the regular rifled tube it replaced to achieve a 16" barrel length. You get it. |
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I've done differential equations with other differential equations as boundry conditions and I'm telling you for true that this notion was presented in a confusing manner.
Especially calling a lathe turned moderator a "real" moderator. 
Anyway - Based on all the kind of stuff ATF has ruled on in the past, I would guess that 1. Anything with baffles in it like a suppressor uses would be considered an illegal suppresor, even if it doesn't reduce sound. The actual colt moderator only reduces sound 2 db which is basically nothing relative to a 160 db gunshot. Also, ATF has done all kinds of restrictive rulings in the past, like calling a set of suppressor rebuild wipes an illegal suppressor. You can guess why they do this - either they call everything with baffles a suppressor or they end up doing all kinds of quibbling and sound reduction testing. 2. Anything that's just a solid cylinder of metal with a hole drilled through for the bullet to pass thru would be considered a barrel extension, NOT a suppressor. Because there are already all different kinds of long flashiders and barrel extensions on the market and they are 100% legal. You can buy barrel extensions for a MAC10 that screw right on and doubtlessly reduce the sound of the gun report by more than 2 db just by reducing the muzzle pressure and completing the powder burn more. But they aren't considered suppressors. 3. I don't think there will ever be any legal device that uses a theoretical nuance to skirt around the NFA laws. The ATF does not function on nuance, they just change the law as they see fit, totally arbitrary. They don't play pattycake about at all about tricky ideas and nuances, more like the exact opposite. Remember the guy who went to jail for putting a few FA parts in an AR15 and sort of getting it to occassionally slamfire? You ever read the court testimony in that case? The guy had a industry expert come in and try to explain to the jury the nuances of what makes a machinegun a machinegun It was a complete flop, the jury handed out a 10 year sentence like the guy was John Dillinger. 4. If metal printing technology becomes advanced enough, this won't necessarily be just a "thought experiment" anymore. Pretty soon you'll be able to make anything you can dream of. |
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