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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Investment? Fun ? glory? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/14/2011 2:22:42 AM EDT
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lol i really didnt know what to put as a subject. So i got home from Afghanistan in May with a nice chunk of money in the bank and i have been tossing around ways to make some of that money grow say over the next 5-10 years So i think i would like to buys some NFA weapons and hope they grow in value. I really want a M16 full auto, no 3 rd burst. should i go with a conversion like a sendra? i have seen a few from 9K-13K the last few months or go with a factory colt? what prices should i expect to be a fare price for either and what should i look for or ask the seller. what are some other weapons that would be a good investment if you had 10K-24K to invest? |
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While I do beleive NFA guns will continue to increase in value (basic law of suply and demand makes that an almost certainty) I don't beleive in NFA guns as investments. They are meant to be shot. Others should not be deprived of shooting them, for them just to sit in my safe.
So I shoot my NFA, while watching their value increase. I also keep them in pristine condition. Right now, if I had $24K, I'd think about a BAR. Love that gun. To me, the "must have" guns are something in 5.56 (M16, FNC, or AC556) something in 9mm (M11/9 with Lage upper, Uzi, MK760 / Stemple / S&W 76, etc) and something in 22rf (Lage is the best thing I've ever seen) For $24K, you could get an M16, 9mm upper, a 7.62 x 39 upper, a 22rf, and a Shrike beltfed. And as said, a DIAS is a great option in that direction. THose are the thoughts that'd be rollin around in my head. For $24K you could get a nice H&K trigger pack, registered in 9mm, 223 and 308, with "uppers" to match. . That'd get ya a nice variety. But personally, I'm not mucg of a HK fan. Ultimately, I'd prolly put half into NFA, and half into other true investments. |
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Something is only an investment if you eventually sell it.
Buying a Ferrari 250 GTO that no-one can risk to race and sticking it in a shed is an investment. It's only value is in re-sale, there is no practical value. Buying an M16 and shooting the crap out if it is just an expensive way to have fun. The fact that someone will pay you more for it in 5 years is largely irrelevant. Buying two M16s and selling one in 5 years to pay for both of them is a bit of a fantasy. In the current economic climate the best investment you could make is foreclosed land, especially if it is something like a small farm near to a growing town that may eventually be subdivided and developed for residential or commercial purposes. It would be an even better investment if you could add value by your own effort in the way of property improvement. |
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IMHO, anything that potentially could be outlawed by a stroke of a presidential pen is a risky investment.
That said, I've been following the NFA market since before the '86 ban, and transferable MGs have in the past done way better than many traditional, "safe" investments. I bought mine to have fun. If that stroke of a pen came tomorrow, I would bitch and raise hell ... but the reality is, the payback in fun over the many years makes it more than worth it, even if they became worthless tomorrow. OK, given the above: I would buy an M16 –– either an RR or an RDIAS –– and an RR Uzi. (Because that's what I own now, after I whittled my MG collection down to the ones I always shot, and couldn't live without.) You're covered for 5.56, 7.62x39, 9mm, .45, .22 and about a dozen other calibers ... from 4"-barrelled subguns to beltfeds. Spend whatever you have left on uppers, mags, ammo. Then buy more ammo. BTW, I've been recommending this combo for years, and not one person who followed it ever sent me a complaining email. Except for the H&K fanbois –– there's no pleasing them with anything other than HKs. 
YMMV. 
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Whats the going price for a RDIAS These days they seem to be listed slightly more than most conversions yet less than a factory Colt M16. $11k-$13k on average maybe? Price will depend on the material as well. Some people prefer the steel bodies and they can command a bit higher premium over an AL body. If you find one for a good price then it doesn't matter what the body is made out of in my opinion. |
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FWIW ... twice in the past two years, I've come across "transferable" RDIAS that were so scary on a legality basis, I ran away. Wouldn't want to even be in the same room with them.
I was generally looking around for a correct, legal RDIAS when I locally came across the Oly/PAWS "P" series last month for $9.8k and bought it. It's not an RDIAS, but it is a correct, legal RR and it miked out close to milspec ... and rather than spend the current $14k for an RDIAS, this made more sense to me. Yes, a correct RDIAS is more flexible than an RR. But a local RR that is a known quantity is, to me, a better use of my limited resources than a questionable RDIAS from someone I don't know. I'll make the RR work, and the $4k savings will more than make up for the rare circumstances where an RDIAS beats an RR. A factory Colt M16/A1/A2 is fairly easily proven to be real, as is a Vector Uzi. But when it comes to conversion RRs and RDIAS, you do need to be careful ... because there are some out there that are not 100%. IMHO. I'm not rich enough to gamble, and risk losing $14k on an iffy purchase. YMMV. 
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FWIW ... twice in the past two years, I've come across "transferable" RDIAS that were so scary on a legality basis, I ran away. Wouldn't want to even be in the same room with them. I was generally looking around for a correct, legal RDIAS when I locally came across the Oly/PAWS "P" series last month for $9.8k and bought it. It's not an RDIAS, but it is a correct, legal RR and it miked out close to milspec ... and rather than spend the current $14k for an RDIAS, this made more sense to me. Yes, a correct RDIAS is more flexible than an RR. But a local RR that is a known quantity is, to me, a better use of my limited resources than a questionable RDIAS from someone I don't know. I'll make the RR work, and the $4k savings will more than make up for the rare circumstances where an RDIAS beats an RR. A factory Colt M16/A1/A2 is fairly easily proven to be real, as is a Vector Uzi. But when it comes to conversion RRs and RDIAS, you do need to be careful ... because there are some out there that are not 100%. IMHO. I'm not rich enough to gamble, and risk losing $14k on an iffy purchase. YMMV. Yep, I found the same thing out last year when I was looking for them. There are some scary sears out there, a lot of over priced sears, and a few good deals. I found a fairly good price on a Whitman and Sons hardened AL sear. I sent it off to M60Joe to check out and bring up to spec. It was worth it to me...but A) there were more than a few sketchy deals out there that I passed up B) I got lucky finding a good deal and jumping on it C) I did my research ahead of time so I knew what I was looking for when I was ready to buy. It seemed like a long process at the time, but it doesn't take that long to learn what to look for. Asking a lot of questions here sure helped me too. [/list=1]sketchy" |
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Investment? I wouldn't do any investment that could be made into counter-ban with the stoke of a pen.
But if you are dead set on telling yourself that to make yourself feel better about it, then look for any really good deals. RR M16's at or under $10k would be a good start. But your best bet would be mid-range guns that are soft right now. BAR's have gotten pretty cheap. So are some of the beltfeds. 60's were in the mid to high $30's, now you can find them for $28k and under if you are quick. |
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Yup, beltfeds have become stupid cheap, because of the cost of feeding them. I've been looking for a good deal on a Maxim or 1919, because the prices are so 2002 .... but really, if/when I find one, I'm going to have to decide whether the exorbitant cost of feeding 'em is worth the relatively cheap entry fee.
It's certainly what I would not suggest a first-timer buy for that first MG. YMMV. 
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Quoted: yeah but a M60 would be funYup, beltfeds have become stupid cheap, because of the cost of feeding them. I've been looking for a good deal on a Maxim or 1919, because the prices are so 2002 .... but really, if/when I find one, I'm going to have to decide whether the exorbitant cost of feeding 'em is worth the relatively cheap entry fee. It's certainly what I would not suggest a first-timer buy for that first MG. YMMV. or all these 1919s ive been seeing for 12-14K
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Quoted: FWIW ... twice in the past two years, I've come across "transferable" RDIAS that were so scary on a legality basis, I ran away. Wouldn't want to even be in the same room with them. I was generally looking around for a correct, legal RDIAS when I locally came across the Oly/PAWS "P" series last month for $9.8k and bought it. It's not an RDIAS, but it is a correct, legal RR and it miked out close to milspec ... and rather than spend the current $14k for an RDIAS, this made more sense to me. Yes, a correct RDIAS is more flexible than an RR. But a local RR that is a known quantity is, to me, a better use of my limited resources than a questionable RDIAS from someone I don't know. I'll make the RR work, and the $4k savings will more than make up for the rare circumstances where an RDIAS beats an RR. A factory Colt M16/A1/A2 is fairly easily proven to be real, as is a Vector Uzi. But when it comes to conversion RRs and RDIAS, you do need to be careful ... because there are some out there that are not 100%. IMHO. I'm not rich enough to gamble, and risk losing $14k on an iffy purchase. YMMV. I like these words. |
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think about the opposite side of the investment, you spend $14k on an M16, and with a stroke of a pen the 86MG ban is repealed... now you have a $14k MG that is worth maybe $800... and you can go buy a brand new one for $1000...
think about all the people that stockpiled "pre-ban" magazines and rifles before the 94AWB... there were still people a few years ago trying to sell beat to shit Colt SP1's and dented black follower 30rd okay mags for ban prices listed as "pre-ban" at gun shows... i'm sure they're none too happy that their "$2000 AR" is worth $750 at most... or their mags are better used as paper weights... think about all the people that bought a shit ton of AR parts pre-Obama and then waited too long to flip them in the EE, you'll still see some outrageously overpriced parts there... people refuse to budge on a $10 loss, let alone a $10,000 loss... every person i've ever met that has bought NFA items as an "investment" takes a very elitist view towards the 2A, is generally in favor of gun laws/restrictions, and stand in direct opposition to activities that repeal the hughes amendment, 68 GCA, and the NFA... |
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think about the opposite side of the investment, you spend $14k on an M16, and with a stroke of a pen the 86MG ban is repealed... now you have a $14k MG that is worth maybe $800... and you can go buy a brand new one for $1000...
think about all the people that stockpiled "pre-ban" magazines and rifles before the 94AWB... there were still people a few years ago trying to sell beat to shit Colt SP1's and dented black follower 30rd okay mags for ban prices listed as "pre-ban" at gun shows... i'm sure they're none too happy that their "$2000 AR" is worth $750 at most... or their mags are better used as paper weights... think about all the people that bought a shit ton of AR parts pre-Obama and then waited too long to flip them in the EE, you'll still see some outrageously overpriced parts there... people refuse to budge on a $10 loss, let alone a $10,000 loss... every person i've ever met that has bought NFA items as an "investment" takes a very elitist view towards the 2A, is generally in favor of gun laws/restrictions, and stand in direct opposition to activities that repeal the hughes amendment, 68 GCA, and the NFA... The guys who got in before the prices went full retard don't understand how strange it is to buy a $1000 colt M16 for $15,000. it's like paying $250 for a McDonalds hamburger, it causes a cognitive disconnect that's hard to push past. "Buy this McD hamburger for $250, next year it will probably be $300. Unless the government makes it illegal to transfer them. Or makes frying new burgers legal. then it will be $2 for new one and 15 cents for your used one." It's a strange situation. |
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The guys who got in before the prices went full retard don't understand how strange it is to buy a $1000 colt M16 for $15,000. it's like paying $250 for a McDonalds hamburger, it causes a cognitive disconnect that's hard to push past. "Buy this McD hamburger for $250, next year it will probably be $300. Unless the government makes it illegal to transfer them. Or makes frying new burgers legal. then it will be $2 for new one and 15 cents for your used one." It's a strange situation. At least one does –– me. I bought my first M16A1 in 1994 for $2,000 –– and had to sell both of my semi SP1s (for $600 each) to help pay for it. Handing a stranger $2,000, having him say, "I'll call you in 8 or 10 months when the paperwork comes through" and leaving empty-handed was bad enough. But just the concept of paying two thousand freakin' dollars for a single gun made me wake up in the middle of many nights, in a cold sweat. That was more than the book value of the car I was driving at the time. Same FFL/SOT had a new-in-straw PolyTech SWD AK for $2k, a NIB Ruger KAC556K for $1.2k, a C&R STEn for $800 ... and a really gorgeous Maremont M60 for $3,500! Now the worst part: He was planning on dropping his FFL/SOT and retiring, and he offered me all five MGs as a package deal for $7,500. And I laughed at him! 
Anyway, it's like poaching frogs in water: Those of us who have watched prices on a daily basis for 20 years only see the monthly change, not the decade-long increase. Hey, I just paid $9.8k for the Oly/PAWS RR, and it reminds me constantly of the five-MG deal I turned down so long ago. The upside or downside is, I've had a ton of fun with my MGs over the years. And I'm at the point in life where having fun right now is the important point ... because who knows if there's a tomorrow? If nothing else, my sons and grandson will inherit some cool stuff, and it won't cost them a cent.
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Tony, what was "off" about the legality of those 2 RDIAS? One had started life as a registered Lightning Link and had the serial number transferred to one of those Shotgun News unregistered DIAS. Of course, the SN still started with "AC" for "Auto Connector", the Form 2 model name for LLs ... The other was a really, really crudely made RDIAS, but was serialled to a well-known 07/02 manufacturer. When sent jpegs of it, he flatly stated that he had not manufactured it. For whatever reason (to replace a lost one? To have a spare?), a past owner had fabricated a DIAS and placed the 07/02's SN on it. In both cases, the RDIAS were not the ones which had been manufactured prior to May 19, 1986. And I would not want to even be in the same room with either one.
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Now the worst part: He was planning on dropping his FFL/SOT and retiring, and he offered me all five MGs as a package deal for $7,500. . Hey, I just paid $9.8k for the Oly/PAWS RR, and it reminds me constantly of the five-MG deal I turned down so long ago. Dude....I'd be on suicide watch...... 
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i don't see these as an investment, the people who would make money off of these are the guys who got into it years ago or even in the late 90s. if you have 24k you want to spend on guns buy some MGs that you like, are LEGIT, and a shooter grade so you have have fun. i would get a Lightning Link and an H&K sear, with those 2 you can have any type of gun you want from 22 to 308 belt-fed as well as subguns. the LLs are still cheap enough where they still have room to grow in price over the next few years but not like they have in the past 15.
i would advise just researching a lot of the ones your interested in, know as much as you can. then watch all the boards and forums for a good deal, there was a MAC 380 on subguns for $2,400 last month, looks like it sold in hours. become a member of some local gun culbs and get to know the guys there who have been in the MG game for a while. they may be able to help you out or point you in the right direction. |
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The guys who got in before the prices went full retard don't understand how strange it is to buy a $1000 colt M16 for $15,000. it's like paying $250 for a McDonalds hamburger, it causes a cognitive disconnect that's hard to push past. "Buy this McD hamburger for $250, next year it will probably be $300. Unless the government makes it illegal to transfer them. Or makes frying new burgers legal. then it will be $2 for new one and 15 cents for your used one." It's a strange situation. At least one does –– me. I bought my first M16A1 in 1994 for $2,000 –– and had to sell both of my semi SP1s (for $600 each) to help pay for it. Handing a stranger $2,000, having him say, "I'll call you in 8 or 10 months when the paperwork comes through" and leaving empty-handed was bad enough. But just the concept of paying two thousand freakin' dollars for a single gun made me wake up in the middle of many nights, in a cold sweat. That was more than the book value of the car I was driving at the time. Same FFL/SOT had a new-in-straw PolyTech SWD AK for $2k, a NIB Ruger KAC556K for $1.2k, a C&R STEn for $800 ... and a really gorgeous Maremont M60 for $3,500! Now the worst part: He was planning on dropping his FFL/SOT and retiring, and he offered me all five MGs as a package deal for $7,500. And I laughed at him!
Anyway, it's like poaching frogs in water: Those of us who have watched prices on a daily basis for 20 years only see the monthly change, not the decade-long increase. Hey, I just paid $9.8k for the Oly/PAWS RR, and it reminds me constantly of the five-MG deal I turned down so long ago. The upside or downside is, I've had a ton of fun with my MGs over the years. And I'm at the point in life where having fun right now is the important point ... because who knows if there's a tomorrow? If nothing else, my sons and grandson will inherit some cool stuff, and it won't cost them a cent.
I'll grant you that one. I personally would be willing to go into it about the cost of new car. I've bought a dozen new cars over the years knowing that they won't be worth shit in 5 years, so if that happened to my gun collection I'd be able to shrug it off. of course, actually coming up with the money is the next phase
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Quoted: I saw it, but did not know it was a deal. There was a guy in Fl with a $2500 M11 I could have got it but, I really am saving my penniesQuoted: there was a RLL on Subgun today for less then an hour  .It was priced well too. I almost got the pair of M11s for 2500 each. I was second to get in touch with the guy...first guy bought them though it seems.  |
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there was a RLL on Subgun today for less then an hour .
It was priced well too. I almost got the pair of M11s for 2500 each. I was second to get in touch with the guy...first guy bought them though it seems. I saw them, but didn't make the call. Just something in my gut told me not to. And I've followed my gut so far and its done me well. |
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there was a RLL on Subgun today for less then an hour .
It was priced well too. I almost got the pair of M11s for 2500 each. I was second to get in touch with the guy...first guy bought them though it seems. I saw them, but didn't make the call. Just something in my gut told me not to. And I've followed my gut so far and its done me well. Seems like it was a legit deal. The guy wasn't trying to talk me into buying them and get my money. The guy selling them is a SOT so I would feel a bit more comfortable than the same sale with an individual. I saw the ad at about 7 or 8am and he said he had about 20 emails about them already (it had only been listed for about an hour or two by the time I called). I wish the LL that was listed was an inexpensive RR. I saw it about a minute after it was posted. 
Oh well...I'll see more good deals another day. Still looking for that $5,000 M60...where is Doc Brown when you need him? |
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I'm getting a MAC 10/45, Marietta GA, for my first FA locally ($2500) next week but have been watching the boards... I saw that pair of M11's and was gonna call for one, but realized the ad was up for over an hour and figured they'd be long gone anyways.
Would have been nice to "get both"... oh well, gotta keep watching! |
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there was a RLL on Subgun today for less then an hour .
It was priced well too. I almost got the pair of M11s for 2500 each. I was second to get in touch with the guy...first guy bought them though it seems. I saw them, but didn't make the call. Just something in my gut told me not to. And I've followed my gut so far and its done me well. Seems like it was a legit deal. The guy wasn't trying to talk me into buying them and get my money. The guy selling them is a SOT so I would feel a bit more comfortable than the same sale with an individual. I saw the ad at about 7 or 8am and he said he had about 20 emails about them already (it had only been listed for about an hour or two by the time I called). I wish the LL that was listed was an inexpensive RR. I saw it about a minute after it was posted.
Oh well...I'll see more good deals another day. Still looking for that $5,000 M60...where is Doc Brown when you need him? Well cool. Hope it all goes well and the transfers go quickly. 
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there was a RLL on Subgun today for less then an hour .
It was priced well too. I almost got the pair of M11s for 2500 each. I was second to get in touch with the guy...first guy bought them though it seems. I saw them, but didn't make the call. Just something in my gut told me not to. And I've followed my gut so far and its done me well. Seems like it was a legit deal. The guy wasn't trying to talk me into buying them and get my money. The guy selling them is a SOT so I would feel a bit more comfortable than the same sale with an individual. I saw the ad at about 7 or 8am and he said he had about 20 emails about them already (it had only been listed for about an hour or two by the time I called). I wish the LL that was listed was an inexpensive RR. I saw it about a minute after it was posted.
Oh well...I'll see more good deals another day. Still looking for that $5,000 M60...where is Doc Brown when you need him? Well cool. Hope it all goes well and the transfers go quickly. Oh sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't pick them up (I wa too slow on the draw). I was just saying that it seemed like a legit deal. 
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there was a RLL on Subgun today for less then an hour .
It was priced well too. I almost got the pair of M11s for 2500 each. I was second to get in touch with the guy...first guy bought them though it seems. I saw them, but didn't make the call. Just something in my gut told me not to. And I've followed my gut so far and its done me well. Seems like it was a legit deal. The guy wasn't trying to talk me into buying them and get my money. The guy selling them is a SOT so I would feel a bit more comfortable than the same sale with an individual. I saw the ad at about 7 or 8am and he said he had about 20 emails about them already (it had only been listed for about an hour or two by the time I called). I wish the LL that was listed was an inexpensive RR. I saw it about a minute after it was posted.
Oh well...I'll see more good deals another day. Still looking for that $5,000 M60...where is Doc Brown when you need him? Well cool. Hope it all goes well and the transfers go quickly. Oh sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't pick them up (I wa too slow on the draw). I was just saying that it seemed like a legit deal.
Gottca. Well, hope that 60 works out. |
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There's a lot of real sober advice in this here thread (not including my contributions )
I've been thinking on it a little and it seems to me that the two basic food groups of FA would be: 9mm bullet hose 223 assault rifle the more modular the guns are, the more accessories and caliber changes, the better. I guess the low cost end would be a $3000 MAC10 and a $9K RR AR15 conversion. The high end would be a $6500 uzi and a $14.5k Colt M16 So that's from 12k to 21K to get started, then add another couple of K for uppers and and magazines. and two tax stamps. So you could basically shoot until your finger falls off and play barbie doll with your guns for the rest of your life for the cost of a low end economy car that wont be worth shit before you even pay off the loan. I don't know if I would go deeper than that into it. No matter what the current market is, I'm still paying 90% for the NFA registration, a value that could dissappear like a puff of steam. |
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I asked this question in the Spring of 2004, "I have some cash, what MG should I buy?"
A Sendra Converted RR is what I was advised to purchase. I can shoot any number of calibers, barrel lengths, configurations, even belt fed 22LR (LM7). As for an investment? I saw the 3500.00 M16s in 2001, 02. I saw the meteoric rise from those prices to 10-11k, and then a cooling in the market. I do not buy/sell MGs. My M16, in the 7 years that I have owned it, has only increased in price by about 1000.00 (and I got a smoking good deal in '04). In 04, I assumed my M16 would be worth 12-15k in 2011, maybe more. The charts for prices were parabolic. There has been a slow return to growth in MG prices, but ammo prices, the 15% unemployment rates, and a maturing demographic means the rush to purchase MGs makes them less than a stellar return on investment. Get a RR and enjoy it. You have never seen the look on the face of a grown man who has sat his RDIAS down and was unable to find it again. You don't want to see it. TRG |
Personally, I don't think there are any good investments at the moment. Not sure-things anyway. Maybe gold coins, but even they seem to be over priced and could be confiscated by the Gov if/when the dollar tanks? Your best bet might be an ocean front condo in a reasonably safe foreign country like Costa Rica. Either that, or find a rich old lady to marry who has a beautiful live-in grand-daughter. 
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It's normal for the market in MGs to cool down when there is nearly a depression going on.
20K cash + unemployment would maybe keep a household going for a year, that's a big fat shitheap of money to throw down on a toy in the face of looming disaster. I noticed that reisings have tanked from 5K to 3.5 or so. Amazing. The fact that 15K ARs are hanging tough is actually pretty impressive. MGs aren't some bullshit fad like the baseball card craze back in the late 80s. The number of buyers always goes up and the number of guns stays the same. The M11/9 is a low rent POS and it's being made over into into the Cinderella of the low end market, what does that tell you? The interest is there, people are just scared to spend big money. |
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Personally, I don't think there are any good investments at the moment. Not sure-things anyway. Maybe gold coins, but even they seem to be over priced and could be confiscated by the Gov if/when the dollar tanks? Your best bet might be an ocean front condo in a reasonably safe foreign country like Costa Rica. Either that, or find a rich old lady to marry who has a beautiful live-in grand-daughter.
I agree with you regarding lack of good investments, as we've been flirting with the edge worldwide of what fiat money can- or rather cannot- do. Some of the so-called "smart money" is moving into buying farmland, but I don't see that really ending well and it's beyond a "diversification play" for most of us. Having some precious metals is good, and is popular- but I think too many are putting too many eggs in that basket when the tea leaves are really unreadable. If everyone moves to the other side of the boat at the same time after the runup of the last couple years, that could look pretty ugly as well. That said- I actually do view machine guns as an investment, and have acted accordingly with a portion of our funds. With the markets and currencies so uncertain worldwide, finding something as a store of value or a semi-constant vs. the inflation-bound (IMHO) US dollar (the big attraction to land and gold, and a virtue I believe shared by machine guns) is attractive. It's actually a financially defensive position; not worried if they don't appreciate in inflation-adjusted dollars, but I find them more likely to keep pace than some other choices. It might feel good if your gun is "worth" 20% more than you paid in two years...but that's not really impressive if you're then paying $5 for a loaf of bread that's $3 today. And, if the conservative wealthy guys (7 or low 8 figures, guys above that can and do hire security) who are now buying gold, more guns, and even home food storage (after never really worrying that much before) were to get wise about NFA, it doesn't take much panic buying to run up a tiny market like NFA. Too bad a lot of them live in socialist states precluding ownership, but quite a few don't. Either way- MG's are a uncommon good of finite supply, with theoretically significant utilitarian value, and are a shitload of fun if it ain't hitting the fan. Like land, they ain't making any more transferrables. Surprisingly, and not much of a groaner for most here- I think ammo is actually a reasonable investment as well. I'm hearing of component price increases after the first of the year, for the short-term...and anyone who still has some ammo they bought 4-5 years ago can attest to how good of an investment that's been. The other day, I happened to think when cracking a case of WWB .40 that I'd paid .17 a rd for it a few years ago. Today, the replacement cost is 2.5 times that. And I'm by comparison a noob- some guys here likely have .40 they paid a dime for. Those are some pretty serious gains. So, there's the investment thesis: machine guns and ammo. Print it up on some fake financial advisor's letterhead, show it to your wife, and start writing checks, filling out F4's, and giving your UPS driver a hernia from all the heavy ORM-D pkgs. 
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mtnvalley,
The only problem with MGs is that the supply is artificially limited. You need a time machine to get a brand new 1969 Hemi Charger but people could be buying brand spanking new FA M4s and UZIs with the stroke of a pen. And the new ones would not be any focking $7K or $15K. Your typical crusty old 1986 converted colt sporter wouldn't be worth $500 if that happened. On the other hand, maybe the next president will sell his phony mexico-crime bullshit to the public and the FA market will be grandfathered out of existence. The voters cannot be trusted anymore, they voted for a diet of unicorn rainbows and death-virus debt, didn't they? If you want to invest serious money in guns, I would suggest doing it the way it's been done in the past, buy guns with bona-fide historical collector value like artillery lugers or 1800s cowboy guns. Also, there's a number of guns that are shooting up in price way faster than MGs. For example, COP derringers are going apeshit these days. |
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Quoted:
mtnvalley, The only problem with MGs is that the supply is artificially limited. You need a time machine to get a brand new 1969 Hemi Charger but people could be buying brand spanking new FA M4s and UZIs with the stroke of a pen. And the new ones would not be any focking $7K or $15K. Your typical crusty old 1986 converted colt sporter wouldn't be worth $500 if that happened. On the other hand, maybe the next president will sell his phony mexico-crime bullshit to the public and the FA market will be grandfathered out of existence. The voters cannot be trusted anymore, they voted for a diet of unicorn rainbows and death-virus debt, didn't they? If you want to invest serious money in guns, I would suggest doing it the way it's been done in the past, buy guns with bona-fide historical collector value like artillery lugers or 1800s cowboy guns. Also, there's a number of guns that are shooting up in price way faster than MGs. For example, COP derringers are going apeshit these days. You make some excellent points ... but with all due respect, my own take is 180 degrees from yours. First, I should note that I have always told folks that while transferable MGs have in the past been excellent investments, that is no predictor of future value, particularly because (as you say) it is an artificial market created by, and still subject to, political issues. That said ... First off, I've collected various types of Title 1 guns –– Colts, Lugers, Winchesters –– my whole life, far longer than I've owned MGs. I made money on pretty much every one I bought and owned for awhile. But with a very few exceptions, they are all gone now –– owning a collectible firearm of that class meant not shooting it and even avoiding handling it, and they might as well have been stock certificates. That's an investment, not something you enjoy owning. So I sold most all of them off ... and bought transferable MGs, which while I'm anal-retentive about handling, I still can shoot, and have shot for decades, with little wear and actually vast appreciation. About 3 years ago, though, when I saw the economy was about to go south, I reallocated my investments, both financial instruments and "precious metals" ... so I sold off all my MGs, except for my Colt factory M16A1 and Vector Uzi. Right before the MG market went south. I had shot these MGs and had a ton of fun over the years ... and the proceeds from the sales of the other MGs more than covered all my initial investment, which meant that my '16 and Uzi were free.
Smart financial planning, right? So why did I shell out $10k last month for another MG –– a Oly/PAWS RR –– and go back in the hole again? Well, let's talk political reality here: –– Congress is not going to outright ban existing transferable MGs. The Constitution requires compensation when personal property is seized, and that's what it would be. Imagine if Congress passed a law that seized 200,000 separate, individual pieces of land under eminent domain. The financial cost aside, do you know the bureaucratic nightmare of having to establish a value, and compensate, 200,000 individual citizens for taking their property? The lawsuits would go on for decades, and the federal courts system would either grind to a halt, or costs to expand that system would double the cost of the seizure. Besides, Congress has already accomplished its goal with 922(o): The cost of transferable MGs has risen to the point where only the rich, or the very dedicated, own them today. What would be accomplished by banning them, and creating a bureaucratic nightmare? –– Congress is not going to reverse 922(o) and make brand new, cheap MGs available to everyone. The discovery of the trust option means anyone with the coin can buy one, including at least theoretically folks who should not own them due to character issues. (We all know that in reality BGs just steal expensive stuff, they don't buy it, but we are talking political perceptions here.) There are too many voting sheeple, and the media would have a field day ... voting to repeal 922(o) would be political suicide for many, many Congresscritters, and the most important thing to them is to get re-elected, not to do the right thing. Finally, let's consider what would happen if Congress got the Lemming Fever and decided to jump en masse off a cliff by repealing 922(o). Well, owners of RDIAS would be getting drunk to drown their tears, because their $15k pieces of metal are now worth $5. And you're right, I'd take a bath on the Oly/PAWS. But C&R MGs would maintain 50 to 75% of their present value ... because they are collectible originals, they are pieces of history, and even if you could make one today, it would be brand new, not an artifact. I doubt I'd take much of a hit on my Colt M16A1, either. Have you seen Colt's quality control on new guns? I've got a brand new M4LE (6933 SBR) and it's crap compared to my 16A1 made on March 7, 1978 ... while you and I wish we could buy new full-auto M4s, a repeal of 922(o) would reverse things, and collectors would place a higher value on the "M16A1" rollmark and the quality and history it represents. Look at the Title 1 guns: Is a Colt Single Action Army made today worth as much as one made 50 years ago? How about Winchesters from then and now? Would a brand spankin'-new Luger be worth the same as my 41byf? And then we could get into how rare and expensive MG parts sets have become ... yeah, maybe someone would start making new components, but how many "new" Title 1 guns are recreations of classics that have gone back into production –– and actually created a profit? Finally .... I have a helluva lot of fun with my MGs, and I've been doing it year after year for decades now. If the worst came to be and they were taken away, no one can take away the memories of that fun, and to me that's way more important than whether I die rich or poor financially. I'm already rich from the joy they brought me, and no one can take that away. As always, Your Mileage May Vary.
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tony k,
I would agree with you, except for the part about 70's M16s having a collector value. The C&R guns like thompsons would keep their high end collector value, but I don't think a 70s or 80s M16 has a colorful enough past to excite much collector value. The world is full of old guns but the ones with collector value are the ones that light up the imagination. The same reason a titanic menu is worth $100K. As far as losing money on a typical NFA collection goes, I would not give it a second thought. Our whole country is full of people who are driving around in boring $35k SUVs than are not going to be worth shit in 5 years. They go into it knowing that they are getting pounded in the ass and they don't care. There are plenty of guys right here on arfcom who say they dream of owning an M16, but instead they own a $40K Suburban with leather captain's chairs and alloy rims. So if I go say $20K into NFA guns, I'm not going to lay awake wondering what will happen if some unlikely political event happens. i would buy an UZI and an m16 without a moment's hesitation. I don't think I would buy a $100K NFA gun, though. |
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Damn it, if only i wasn't 1 years old when that 1986 ban got passed :( Oh well, for someone only 26 years old, I'd say I have enough machine guns being transfered to me haha.
I believe in the investment point of them, but I like to shoot a lot also. Take someone's advice here, spend half on a machine gun investment, then invest the other helf in a real investment. RDIAS are pricey right now. I paid $16k for mine. More than normal, but it's at a local well known dealer, and I like that. Expect 13k-15k for one. Totally worth it IMO for what you can do with it and all the caliber choices you will then have as well. |
| While they might not be a sound investment they are fun. I recently had the opportunity to purchase a factory select fire Springfield Armory M1A and a Reising for less that I could buy just the M1A for usually. I had to move some investment money around but for me, it is an investment that I can enjoy and it was like buying one machine gun (M1A) and getting the second free. |
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Quoted:
While they might not be a sound investment they are fun. I recently had the opportunity to purchase a factory select fire Springfield Armory M1A and a Reising for less that I could buy just the M1A for usually. I had to move some investment money around but for me, it is an investment that I can enjoy and it was like buying one machine gun (M1A) and getting the second free. And with deals like that, it would be a smart investment move. As poor of an investment as they might be, when you can get one for free, whats not to like? You could sell the reising and have the M1A for a good bit less then market value. |
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One of the most useful threads on the subject. I've really enjoyed reading.
Some condensed (!!!!) thoughts developed over 40 years buying/selling firearms: 1. Diversify. First, never think of firearms as your total portfolio. That said, you can do well with NFA. You can do well with Title 1 stuff, too. But it is safer to do it with both types.......and others. Never put all your eggs in a M-16 basket. Do not put all your eggs in the factory engraved Winchester 1866 basket. If you do not believe me you are merely admitting you have not been following the various firearms niche markets at all. Every firearms niche goes through bull runs and plateaus. 2. Dollar cost averaging works. Invest what you can, when you can. I'm not speaking only of firearms. Don't blow the wad on one spending spree for which you had to mortgage the house. 3. Understand some basic principles of firearms collecting: provenance (the "coconut rifle" went just over $100k at Julia's - I here go on record as saying that was a downright steal), rarity (the A2 M16 is always going to be worth more than the A1), condition (this means original condition - there is essentially no other kind to a collector/firearms investor), cache' (ie., Colt trumps Sendra). 4. You make more money buying - not selling - collectibles. Acqusition price is the thing. Be patient and wait for the deal to hit you. It will, and when it does best have cash handy b/c........... 5. Cash talks. BS walks. 6. Do your homework - know your subject better than the next guy. Do not buy emotionally. There is such a thing as gut instincts but these take decades to hone. Cold-blooded objectivity is the bomb. 7. This one is very, very important: one of the biggest reasons firearms appreciate is b/c people mess with collectible stuff. If you pay a premium for that staked castle nut...............do not..........do not..........do not.........remove it. There, Sam has spoken. Purchase a conversion, RDIAS, whatever if you absolutely have to frigg with a 16. I could go on with subjects like refinishing, abusive treatment, neglect, etc. I cry every time some idiot refinishes a Model 1886, puts choke tubes in a Model 42 skeet gun, runs unramped 9 long enough to egg out his FCG holes, Bubba's the screws on a Colt Gen 1 SAA..........etc., etc. Then, I console myself with the knowledge that such things increase the value of my stuff. Sam |
| I'd worry more about a nationwide magazine ban like California where you can't even transfer existing ones... kinda take the fun out of a MG if you only had low cap mags. I understand Germany allows full auto, but not much of a party with their max capacity 2 rd centerfire mags. |
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I'd worry more about a nationwide magazine ban like California where you can't even transfer existing ones... kinda take the fun out of a MG if you only had low cap mags. I understand Germany allows full auto, but not much of a party with their max capacity 2 rd centerfire mags. That made me LOL
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Quoted:
I'd worry more about a nationwide magazine ban like California where you can't even transfer existing ones... kinda take the fun out of a MG if you only had low cap mags. I understand Germany allows full auto, but not much of a party with their max capacity 2 rd centerfire mags. Well, I do enjoy a good 2rd burst. |
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Quoted: Your point does not change, but I was shooting 30 mags out of an ARFCOMers AR in Germany last year.I'd worry more about a nationwide magazine ban like California where you can't even transfer existing ones... kinda take the fun out of a MG if you only had low cap mags. I understand Germany allows full auto, but not much of a party with their max capacity 2 rd centerfire mags. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Investment? Fun ? glory? (Page 1 of 2)
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