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Posted: 2/22/2010 3:25:11 PM EDT
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Hey everyone, just wanted some input on my SBR build. I have a registered POF Gen 2 lower, so that details is taken care of. I am looking at the following uppers (in no preferential order):
*Noveske (stainless) 10.5" upper with Vltor VIS *LMT 10.5" Monolithic Rail Platform Upper *Rainier Arms 10.5" UltraMatch Upper *LaRue Tactical 12" Stealth Upper FYI: Goal of the rifle is for home defense, plinking at the range a couple times a month, and maximum tacti-cool factor. ;) Given the home defense purposes, I will probably mount a light and an aimpoint (with no plans of buis). My thoughts: My number one interest is accuracy out to 75-100 yards. Does anyone know (with certainty) if one is more accurate than the other at that range? I have been trying to hunt down range reports of these uppers in their specific barrel lengths, but have had a hard time finding them. My current favorite is the Rainier Arms upper. I like this guy mainly because of the shilen barrel (love the shilen barrel installed on my rem 700P). The other components are all top of the line (Daniel Defense rail, young's bolt / PRI handle combo, noveske kx3 flash hider, and their billet upper receiver...) I like the Noveske / VIS and LMT for the rail / receiver system, and the Noveske stainless steel barrels seem to have a good reputation. I like the Larue Tac because everything I have ever held of theirs just oozes excellent quality / fit / finish. And of course, the whole implied accuracy of their 'sniper system'. If I went with the Larue, I would eventually buy and register one of their billet lowers as well (cause they are sexy). Sooo! What do you guys think?? Thanks in advance for any feedback!! |
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Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback! In response…. I have decided to go with a Vltor VIS setup- I like the freedom of barrel compatibility there. I did check the paperwork, and my c3 did the barrel length range rather than one length- makes the interchangeable barrel feature even more attractive. MSTN- thanks for the complete response! I have been looking at the stainless noveske barreled / VIS upper specifically. I have also thought about talking to rainier arms about putting together a VIS upper with their shilen barrels... Thoughts on shilen vs noveske barrel? I'm interested in hearing about matching the bolt to the barrel- I'll drop you guys a line soon. Do you do the ionbond finishing in-house? I hear you guys on the buis- it is probably a bit silly not to finish the deal off with a set. Again, thanks for the input. Any other thoughts are appreciated! Good choice! I think you will be happy, and that is all that matters! |
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Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback! In response…. I have decided to go with a Vltor VIS setup- I like the freedom of barrel compatibility there. I did check the paperwork, and my c3 did the barrel length range rather than one length- makes the interchangeable barrel feature even more attractive. MSTN- thanks for the complete response! I have been looking at the stainless noveske barreled / VIS upper specifically. I have also thought about talking to rainier arms about putting together a VIS upper with their shilen barrels... Thoughts on shilen vs noveske barrel? I'm interested in hearing about matching the bolt to the barrel- I'll drop you guys a line soon. Do you do the ionbond finishing in-house? I hear you guys on the buis- it is probably a bit silly not to finish the deal off with a set. Again, thanks for the input. Any other thoughts are appreciated! One of the complaints that always seems to come up with the VIS is the weight. The VLTOR website has the 10" at 26 oz. LMT doesn't list a weight. I've been looking like using the DD LITE 10" rail on my SBR build, which DD claims is an 11oz rail. Not sure how much an upper wieghs. Sometimes a little extra weight is a good thing and for me, moving from a 16" barrel and 12" rail, it will probably still be lighter. So maybe MSTN, since you've handled so many SBRs, how's the weight of the VIS and LMT systems compared to something like the KAC, Larue or DD in similar lengths? |
| Personally id go with an 11.5,12, or 12.5. The little extra length increases dwell time by at least 40% and you'll have an increase in velocity. Easily worth the little increase in length in my opinion. Therefore id choose LaRue out of your choices. Noveske makes some great 12.5 barrels and BCM makes great 11.5s as well. |
| Thanks for the replies thus far! I am comfortable with the disadvantages associated with the 10.5" barrel length. I'm not looking to start a debate, but in my opinion, I don't think lower velocity or the difference in dwell time significantly factor into my application. But again, I appreciate your opinions. Keep them coming! |
| Larue stealth for increased velocity due to barrel length and poly rifling and increased dependability due to longer dwell time. I would strongly recommend getting fixed buis for your application. Aimpoints are damn near bulletproof, but that's no consolation if you're the statistic. |
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I say if you want a 10.5 build a 10.5...I built me one and most folks on here putting them down.I love mine.Its just what i wanted for something other then my 16 inch carbine.
I loaded up some 69 gr Seirra Matchkings and was getting 2 inch groups with my Aimpoint Comp ML2 at 100 yards wendsday and i don't usually shoot it that far.I wanted it for a Home Defense and CQB and love it. |
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if you're set on a 10.5" i'd go with the LMT and a DD MK18 RIS II just because it looks bad ass (not a huge fan of the MRPs) that or the Noveske,
if it were me i'd go 12" stealth out of your options which, if i had to guess, would be the most accurate, but probably nothing you or i would notice at 100Y currently i'm awaiting the funds to do a 12.5" BCM in the Kino config. it's possibley the most rad thing i've seen in a while. |
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Do you already have another upper for that lower since it is already registered? If so what is the lenght of that one?
Anyway personally I'd go for the larue upper and get it a matching lower down the road. That being said I've had to deal with Rainier's customer service before and it was very good. I'd love to get one of their uppers down the road as well to see how good it is. |
. I want a SBR bad enough to amputate an M4
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I've got SBRs in 7.5", 9.5", 10.5" and 12.5". Generally speaking, where all other things are equal, accuracy goes to the longer barrel.
I am not a group shooter, so I could not speak to MOA. I know and have seen some folks who can truly shoot sub-moa with SBRs, but not a lot of folks. You've put up a bunch of quality options, so you're sure to get a capable rifle no matter which one you choose. Not sub-MOA, but good enough for my purposes. 
9.5" barrel: 
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Hey everyone, just wanted some input on my SBR build. I have a registered POF Gen 2 lower, so that details is taken care of. I am looking at the following uppers (in no preferential order): *Noveske (stainless) 10.5" upper with Vltor VIS *LMT 10.5" Monolithic Rail Platform Upper *Rainier Arms 10.5" UltraMatch Upper *LaRue Tactical 12" Stealth Upper FYI: Goal of the rifle is for home defense, plinking at the range a couple times a month, and maximum tacti-cool factor. ;) Given the home defense purposes, I will probably mount a light and an aimpoint (with no plans of buis). My thoughts: My number one interest is accuracy out to 75-100 yards. Does anyone know (with certainty) if one is more accurate than the other at that range? I have been trying to hunt down range reports of these uppers in their specific barrel lengths, but have had a hard time finding them. My current favorite is the Rainier Arms upper. I like this guy mainly because of the shilen barrel (love the shilen barrel installed on my rem 700P). The other components are all top of the line (Daniel Defense rail, young's bolt / PRI handle combo, noveske kx3 flash hider, and their billet upper receiver...) I like the Noveske / VIS and LMT for the rail / receiver system, and the Noveske stainless steel barrels seem to have a good reputation. I like the Larue Tac because everything I have ever held of theirs just oozes excellent quality / fit / finish. And of course, the whole implied accuracy of their 'sniper system'. If I went with the Larue, I would eventually buy and register one of their billet lowers as well (cause they are sexy). Sooo! What do you guys think?? Thanks in advance for any feedback!! WITH RESPECT TO ACCURACY OUT TO ONLY 75 - 100 YARDS, THE AMMO QUALITY WILL BY FAR BE YOUR BIGGEST VARIABLE. THERE'S A LOT OF JUNK OUT THERE THESE DAYS, EVEN IN BRAND NAME BOXES LIKE REMINGTON, FEDERAL, AND WINCHESTER. YOU LEFT OUT POSSIBLY THE BEST BARREL FOR YOUR INTENDED APPLICATION, THE NOVESKE HAMMER FORGED CHROME LINED BARREL. WHILE NOT QUITE AS ACCURATE AS THEIR STAINLESS MATCH GRADE BARRELS, N4 BARRELS ALL ARE CAPABLE OF MOA OR BETTER ACCURACY WITH MATCH GRADE AMMO. THEY WILL EASILY OUTSHOOT 99% OF THE AMMO OUT THERE AND WILL I SUSPECT OUTLAST THE OTHER BARRELS LISTED. WITH RESPECT TO DIFFERENT CHASSIS YOU COULD UTILIZE IN THIS BUILD, TWO STAND OUT IN TERMS OF VERSATILITY, THE VLTOR VIS AND THE MRP. A. THE VIS ALLOWS YOU TO USE ANY AR' BARREL OUT THERE. BARREL SWAPS ARE A 10 MINUTE MAX TRIP TO THE WORKBENCH. B. THE MRP SIMPLIFIES BARREL CHANGES TO A 5 MINUTE EVOLUTION, BUT THE BARREL CHOICES AVAILABLE, WHILE GOOD, ARE LIMITED TO THOSE OFFERED BY LMT. ONE IMPORTANT ASPECT NOT ADDRESSED IS THE BOLT CARRIER GROUP. I PREFER LMT BOLTS THAT ARE SHOT-PEENED, PROOF ROUND TESTED, AND THEN MP-INSPECTED. OTHER THAN BOLTS MADE FOR MILITARY WEAPONS, I KNOW OF NO OTHER SUPPLIER WHO PROOF ROUND TESTS THEIR BOLTS PRIOR TO MP INSPECTION. WE THEN FIT OUR BOLTS TO INDIVIDUAL BARRELS IN AN ATTEMPT TO OPTIMIZE THE APPLICATION. I CAN'T PROVE SCIENTIFICALLY THAT THIS GIVES US A MECHANICAL ADVANTAGE, BUT THE EMPIRICAL DATA WOULD INDICATE THAT IT DOES. THERE ARE A FAIR NUMBER OF QUALITY CARRIERS OUT THERE. THE BEST ARE STILL THE YOUNG MFG CENTERLESS GROUND UNITS. I PREFER THE ENTIRE BOLT CARRIER GROUP TO BE IONBOND DIAMONDBLACK COATED, AS WELL. YOU MIGHT WANT TO CHECK YOUR BATF PAPERWORK TO SEE IF YOU HAVE A RANGE OF BARRELS LISTED, LIKE 6.0" - 14.5", AS I DO WITH MY SBR'S, OR ONE LENGTH, LIKE 10.5", AS IS MORE COMMON ON FORM 1'S. IF I COULD ONLY HAVE ONE UPPER, OR WAS GETTING MY FIRST UPPER OF MAYBE SEVERAL, IT WOULD BE A 12.5". BUT, MAKE SURE YOUR PAPERWORK WILL SUPPORT ITS USE. SOME SBR PIX: 
NOVESKE 12.5" S/S BARREL WITH SWITCHBLOCK AND VLTOR VIS -2. 
NOVESKE 12.5" S/S BARREL WITH LARUE STEALTH AND KAC URX II. 
NOVESKE 10.5" N4 BARREL WITH PWS PISTON SYSTEM. 
NOVESKE 12.5" S/S WITH D-D RECEIVER AND D-D MK 18 RIS II. 
NOVESKE 10.5" N4 WITH PROTOTYPE D/B COATED RECEIVER AND D-D MK 18 RIS II (MINE!). 
NOVESEK N4 CUSTOM CHOP TO 12.5" WITH PWS PISTON SYSTEM (MINE!). QUESTIONS/COMMENTS? GOOD SHOOTING, WES |
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I have an LMT 10.5" with Laure 9.0 rail on a registered LMT lower. I like it very much, but it is finicky with ammo. Full power 5.56mm only, and even then, it behaves differently with M855 versus the 55gr XM193, Q3131A1 and Privi that I've shot. I understand that it's running exactly as it's designed, so I don't fault the barrel. However, for plinking I'd like to be able to shoot a wider range of ammo, to include weaker stuff like PMC Bronze, which will not cycle in my SBR, even with a CAR buffer. Therefore, I am thinking of swapping out the barrel for a 11.5" from Bravo or 12.5" lightweight from Centurion Arms. Monty from Centurion has accuracy guarantees on his barrels. No more money then it costs ya might order ya a Spikes ST-2T buffer and try it...my LMT 10.5 has been flawless with everything so far and i use a BCM BCG as well....  .
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http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/mstn/huge/IMG_0003_48.jpg http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/mstn/huge/IMG_0001_36.jpg NOVESKE 12.5" S/S WITH D-D RECEIVER AND D-D MK 18 RIS II. WES That's the one! I gotta move out of this state! |
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No more money then it costs ya might order ya a Spikes ST-2T buffer and try it...my LMT 10.5 has been flawless with everything so far and i use a BCM BCG as well.... .
I have an H2 buffer, which I believe is roughly the same weight as the ST-2T. I also run an LMT FA BCG in it (I also have a BCM BCG and BCM middy barrel on another rifle which I like very much). See that's the thing, I think the gas port is still tight because the upper is relatively new (around 800 rounds). With M855, the bolt will lock back after every last round using an H buffer. I believe this is what the upper is designed for. With the 55 gr. 5.56mm ammo, the bolt will not lock back using an H or H2 buffer. It will lock back consistently with a CAR buffer. It will not cycle at all with PMC Bronze, with any type of buffer. This is with quality USGI aluminum mags, Magpul PMAGs, and standard buffer spring. Since most of the ranges around here don't allow steel core ammo, I shoot mostly 55gr. Once I shoot more rounds through it and the gas port erodes and opens up, things may change. At this point I can only speak to my experiences with this upper. I am not saying my LMT 10.5" is unreliable. It just has to work in very specific parameters. As long as I keep it wet and within those parameters, it runs like a striped ass gazelle. I like it so much I have a hard time making the move to swap out the barrel. So I'm thinking I might just put in the paperwork to register a spare Mega lower and build another upper using the Centurion Arms CHF 12.5" lightweight barrel.
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Larue stealth for increased velocity due to barrel length and poly rifling and increased dependability due to longer dwell time. I would strongly recommend getting fixed buis for your application. Aimpoints are damn near bulletproof, but that's no consolation if you're the statistic. +1 for the stealth. Also, If you're going to drop nearly 2 grand for the upper and optic, why wouldn't you want a BUIS for a home defense setup? |
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Why can't you have an SBR? State restriction? Short Barrel Rifle is a Federal restriction. One must go through a registration process and get a $200 tax stamp to have one. Look it up mate. I just built a 14.5" Noveske N4 upper with the free stripped Noveske N4 Lower. They make good kit. I agree, you have some top drawer stuff listed, you can't go wrong with any of them. I chose this to be my "bump-in-the-night" companion. I'll pass along some advise given to me long ago. In matters of shoes, horses, motorcycle seats and guns, nothing beats first hand experience. If you can lay hands on some of these items, it would make your decision process easier. He answered him already above 'mate".... 
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Why can't you have an SBR? State restriction? Yep I apologize sir! I was just adding in that it was also a Federal matter for the person that asked the question AND for those others who might read these posts that are not aware of the laws because they may not be interested in NFA weapons. Also for those lurkers who do not know and may not ask. I'm sorry for trying to take in the big picture. I saw the 'yea' answer. I felt that covered the state issue. I guess you must be one of the forum police here? Don't take this the wrong way. I'm 49, been in the military, law enforcement, EMS, shooting and reloading for way over 30 years, CNC machinist, Tool and Die, Laser, EDM and CAD/CAM work. Over 10 years as a full time gunsmith. So, I have a real short fuse for getting poked with a stick over minor crap. I can read. I can comprehend. As I understand it, we are all in here to pass along our knowledge and gain knowledge from others. I was trying to fill in a blank that I felt would help another reader. New to this forum does not mean new to the forum subject. If you bothered to read my ENTIRE post, you saw I also commented on the weapon I had assembled and the barrel length I was using. Subject relevant. I was trying to be constructive with my post. What were you trying to accomplish? |
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Why can't you have an SBR? State restriction? Short Barrel Rifle is a Federal restriction. One must go through a registration process and get a $200 tax stamp to have one. Look it up mate. I just built a 14.5" Noveske N4 upper with the free stripped Noveske N4 Lower. They make good kit. I agree, you have some top drawer stuff listed, you can't go wrong with any of them. I chose this to be my "bump-in-the-night" companion. I'll pass along some advise given to me long ago. In matters of shoes, horses, motorcycle seats and guns, nothing beats first hand experience. If you can lay hands on some of these items, it would make your decision process easier. He answered him already above 'mate"....
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Why can't you have an SBR? State restriction? Yep I apologize sir! I was just adding in that it was also a Federal matter for the person that asked the question AND for those others who might read these posts that are not aware of the laws because they may not be interested in NFA weapons. Also for those lurkers who do not know and may not ask. I'm sorry for trying to take in the big picture. I saw the 'yea' answer. I felt that covered the state issue. I guess you must be one of the forum police here? Don't take this the wrong way. I'm 49, been in the military, law enforcement, EMS, shooting and reloading for way over 30 years, CNC machinist, Tool and Die, Laser, EDM and CAD/CAM work. Over 10 years as a full time gunsmith. So, I have a real short fuse for getting poked with a stick over minor crap. I can read. I can comprehend. As I understand it, we are all in here to pass along our knowledge and gain knowledge from others. I was trying to fill in a blank that I felt would help another reader. New to this forum does not mean new to the forum subject. If you bothered to read my ENTIRE post, you saw I also commented on the weapon I had assembled and the barrel length I was using. Subject relevant. I was trying to be constructive with my post. What were you trying to accomplish? I guess it was the 'look it up mate' comment that made me poke you with a stick.It sounded smart ass. And the guy had already answered....Sorry. |
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Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback! In response….
I have decided to go with a Vltor VIS setup- I like the freedom of barrel compatibility there. I did check the paperwork, and my c3 did the barrel length range rather than one length- makes the interchangeable barrel feature even more attractive. MSTN- thanks for the complete response! I have been looking at the stainless noveske barreled / VIS upper specifically. I have also thought about talking to rainier arms about putting together a VIS upper with their shilen barrels... Thoughts on shilen vs noveske barrel? I'm interested in hearing about matching the bolt to the barrel- I'll drop you guys a line soon. Do you do the ionbond finishing in-house? I hear you guys on the buis- it is probably a bit silly not to finish the deal off with a set. Again, thanks for the input. Any other thoughts are appreciated! |
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Quoted:
Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback! In response…. I have decided to go with a Vltor VIS setup- I like the freedom of barrel compatibility there. I did check the paperwork, and my c3 did the barrel length range rather than one length- makes the interchangeable barrel feature even more attractive. MSTN- thanks for the complete response! I have been looking at the stainless noveske barreled / VIS upper specifically. I have also thought about talking to rainier arms about putting together a VIS upper with their shilen barrels... Thoughts on shilen vs noveske barrel? I'm interested in hearing about matching the bolt to the barrel- I'll drop you guys a line soon. Do you do the ionbond finishing in-house? I hear you guys on the buis- it is probably a bit silly not to finish the deal off with a set. Again, thanks for the input. Any other thoughts are appreciated! SHILEN BARRELS HAVE A LONG REPUTATION FOR QUALITY IN THE BOLT GUN COMMUNITY. I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY EXPERIENCE WITH SHILEN BARRELS SET UP FOR AN AR'. KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE'S A LOT MORE INVOLVED WHEN TURNING A BARREL BLANK INTO AN AR' BARREL THAN INTO A BOLT GUN BARREL. WE USE NOVESKE EXCLUSIVELY FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS: 1. NOVESKE STARTS WITH A TOP QUALITY S/S BARREL BLANK THAT IS SERIALIZED AND ROCKWELL HARDNESS TESTED BEFORE AND AFTER CONTOURING. 2. NOVESKE KNOWS HOW TO TURN A BARREL BLANK INTO AN AR' BARREL BETTER THAN ANYONE WHOSE WORK I HAVE SEEN. THE CHAMBER DIMENSIONS, GAS PORT SIZING, CONTOURING, THREADING, AND CROWNING APPROACH AN ART FORM. THEN, THE PINNED 17-4 S/S GAS BLOCK SETS THEIR WORK ABOVE ANYONE ELSE IN THE BUSINESS. IONBOND FINISH IN HOUSE?!? I WISH.... THE CONTRAPTION THAT IONBOND USES TO APPLY THE DIAMONDBLACK FINISH COSTS SOMEWHERE AROUND $50,000 TO BUILD. WE HAVE TWO 10-PIECE SETS OF PACIFIC TOOL 5.56MM HEADSPACE GAUGES, IN 0.001" INCREMENTS. WHILE IT IS TRUE THAT EVERY ONE OF OUR LMT BOLTS WILL FUNCTION WITH EVERY ONE OF OUR NOVESKE BARRELS, WHY NOT ENSURE THE HEADSPACE IS OPTIMUM FOR EACH APPLICATION? GOOD SHOOTING, WES |
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Why can't you have an SBR? State restriction? Short Barrel Rifle is a Federal restriction. One must go through a registration process and get a $200 tax stamp to have one. Look it up mate. I just built a 14.5" Noveske N4 upper with the free stripped Noveske N4 Lower. They make good kit. I agree, you have some top drawer stuff listed, you can't go wrong with any of them. I chose this to be my "bump-in-the-night" companion. I'll pass along some advise given to me long ago. In matters of shoes, horses, motorcycle seats and guns, nothing beats first hand experience. If you can lay hands on some of these items, it would make your decision process easier. |
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Why can't you have an SBR? State restriction? Short Barrel Rifle is a Federal restriction. One must go through a registration process and get a $200 tax stamp to have one. Look it up mate. And many states impose further restrictions on their ownership. You simply can't possess an SBR in many states. I've only got experience with the LMT 10.5, and was happy with its capabilities. |
| The SBR's I own are made up of a few Novekse's, a LMT MRP CQB, and a couple of LWRC's..While I've never shot them for groups (I have precision based AR's for that), they are all definitely combat accurate..My advice is to go what you believe you would be most satisfied with. |
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I have an LMT 10.5" with Laure 9.0 rail on a registered LMT lower. I like it very much, but it is finicky with ammo. Full power 5.56mm only, and even then, it behaves differently with M855 versus the 55gr XM193, Q3131A1 and Privi that I've shot. I understand that it's running exactly as it's designed, so I don't fault the barrel.
However, for plinking I'd like to be able to shoot a wider range of ammo, to include weaker stuff like PMC Bronze, which will not cycle in my SBR, even with a CAR buffer. Therefore, I am thinking of swapping out the barrel for a 11.5" from Bravo or 12.5" lightweight from Centurion Arms. Monty from Centurion has accuracy guarantees on his barrels. |
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