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Posted: 12/9/2006 4:53:08 PM EDT
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OK, I know I'm asking for it but here goes: I have a friend (I know, they all start like that) who has an M16 that he wants to get rid of. He bought a piece of furniture at an estate sale and this rifle was hidden behind one of the drawers. I suspect that this was a war trophy that was brought home and never registered. I'm currently building an AR for him and was considering a trade for the riffle. I'm only willing to do this if I can legally take possesion. I don't mind waiting for the paperwork and check to go through but I'm not entirely sure this is possible. If the rifle has never been registered then is it possible for me to register it if I have the proper certificates and pay the $200 fee? The plan right now is to call the ATF, tell them what happened, and turn it over. The rifle is nothing special and I'm not sure it's really worth going to the trouble for. No matter what, the rifle needs to get registered or turned over. I'm willing to get a FFL and pay the tax stamp if that's possible. Thanks for any info |
That is exactly what I'd do. By not letting the ATF destroy the whole thing, you'll be preserving history. It's the right thing to do. They'll be happy shredding the receiver. |
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Perhaps a museum in the area would be interested in taking it? They can do that. Unless an amnesty occurs, and soon, there's no legal way to keep it as a regular private citizen. A local police department can acquire it. Or, a duly licensed class III FFL holder MIGHT be able to take posession of it, but if so, he can't ever sell it to a private citizen. Being a non-transferrable weapon, it's restricted to military or law enforcement or class III dealers only. Or museums. I'd turn in the stripped lower receiver to the local office of the FBI and let them handle it. Or...maybe it could be cached, in land that is very unsuitable for development. Using a few local land marks and a GPS, it could be well hidden for the future. CJ |
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I deserve that, I knew this wasn't an easy question. To answer you: No, I'm not a troll. I don't have that many post because I listen way more than I speak. I've always come here for info though. Good advice about giving them just the lower. I was thinking about that but what good would handing over the lower do? I could sell the upper and other parts but it wouldn't be any fun. I don't mind getting the paperwork done and paying the tax stamp but only if I could keep this particular rifle. Has anyone else found something like this? I'm not even for sure if I can get the local PD to sign off on me for the propper clearance. I've tried to search for the answers but nothing I have found has addressed my friends situation. |
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That's what I'm looking for. I might be willing to get a class III FFL. If I do this will I be able to take possession of the firearm? All the info I have seen only talks about transferring previously registered firearms or manufacturing new firearms. I missed the part about "finding the firearm in a dresser" And yes, I'm well aware of the legal ramifications for possessing such a firearm with out the proper clearance. Which is why I about shit a brick when he pulled it out of his safe and told me the story. |
All that aside, the S/N would have to be checked to determine "if" the weapon is stolen or not. If so, then you'd be doubly S.O.L. Not only would it be possession of an unregistered machine gun, but possession of stolen property, and probably possession of stolen Federal property. How about a few pics? 
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But for me to take possession I would have to have a class III right? Even if it's papered, I'm a little scarred to contact the ATF about this. I don't want to bring down a rain of shit on me, or my friend. |
Hire a lawyer to call the ATF for you with the serial. If it ends up being papered, and you want to be legal and whatnot, your friend gets it transfered to him since he found it, then you get it transfered to you. If it turns out to be papered, and "you" found it, then get it transfered to directly to you, and erase your posts... I'de stay legal and pay the tax for your friend - $400 is very cheap for an M16, with no fear of federal pokey. YMMV |
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No. If it is currently unregistered, there is no legal way for you to take possession. If it is already registered, and it is transferable, it can be done by the proper FFL/SOT as long as you do the proper paperwork. An FFL cannot allow you to pay the tax stamp. This is 2006, not 1985. An unregistered machine gun cannot be made legal. There is no reason to turn over the complete rifle. It will be destroyed for no reason. The upper is not illegal, nor a machine gun. You can put the upper on a perfectly legal lower and have yourself an AR for half (or less) the price of a complete rifle. That lower with the auto sear is what will get you in trouble. That can be easily destroyed. I'd strip it and grind the lower receiver and auto trigger parts into powder. The rest of it can be used on a build from a legal, semi auto lower receiver. |
Read up on the 1986 Machine Gun Ban. The machine gun registry is CLOSED---NO NEW MACHINEGUNS may be registered for civilian sales---EVER, unless the ban is repealed (won't happen). 10 years in fed prison is NOT worth it Also, doesn't matter if it was made before '86---if it wasn't registered at the time of the ban, STAY AWAY. |
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I'd find out for sure if the thing is registered or not first. Like someone said, have a lawyer do that. Then if you find out it's not registered, strip the thing down and cut the receiver into two or 3 pieces, and throw 'em in the river. I sure wouldn't walk into an ATF office with an illegal machine gun. Everything else you can sell for parts or like someone else said make yourself an AR 15. Bought at an estate sale with firearm hidden inside ...owner is dead and that dresser was legally aquired. Shit happens. Maybe it is papered and the guys wife or kids didn't have a clue. |
Save the lecture. I know the regularly repeated laws and punishments. I'm not trying to start a flame or trolling. I have a "special" circumstance that I'm trying to find a remedy for. If I go to the ATF and tell them that I (and not my friend) bought a dresser with a rifle inside will they let me keep it if I have the proper clearance? How many of you own a machine gun and what does it take to do so? Do I need a class III or some other form of clearance? I'm not looking to deal in NFA weapons, just own this one. I don't know if there is a distiction between those two. |
Once a machine gun always a machine gun. Perhaps someone here can post a picture of the side of an M16 - you will see it has 3 holes, unlike an AR15 which has 2. The third hole is for the autosear. Your best bet is to contact an attorney who is familiar with firearms laws, and have him contact the ATF. |
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That's what I'm thinking unless anyone here can advise me how it's possible to keep it. I'd be more than happy to just build my friend an AR and tell him to call the ATF about his rifle. I don't even want to take it and hide it. If someone found it and committed a crime with it I could never forgive myself. Edit- I'm refering to the "run forest, run" comment |
There is no remedy. If the rifle is properly NFA-registered, it isn't registered to you or your friend, so it would go back to its rightful owner. If it isn't registered, it CANNOT be registered now no matter what. Donate it to the local PD and forget about it.
I own a transferable M16. All you need to do is submit the proper paperwork and pay $200 to the government, BUT you have to be submitting paperwork for a registered item. The M16 that your friend found cannot be transfered to either of you. And yes, there is a distinction between an individual who owns an NFA item and a Class 3 dealer. People mistakenly think that you have to have a "class 3 license" to own NFA items. Class 3 is just one type of federal firearms license. Getting a Class 3 license just for the sole purpose of owning machineguns that ordinary individuals cannot possess is a felony. |
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simple. you have a machine gun so make it not a machine gun. the only way to do this is buy a stripped lower and a lower parts kit. put them together and pull the big parts off of the gun you have. take a saws all or torch or a big hammer to the remaining parts that you didn't use. total cost to you will be about $150.00 sorry about the bad news (that you can't keep it) and please don't tell the ATF. they will crawl up your butt with a D cell mag light. |
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Washington State does not allow MG "parts". But is somewhat NFA friendly. Private Citizen can own ONLY fully transferable MG, but not register a new MG. ONLY SOT's with a "Dept Demo Letter" can manufacture/ register a new MG. A Class 3/ SOT license can be obtain but it is a "BUSNESS" you need to show and prove to the BATF that you are engaged in a "profitable busness". It is not ment to be a collector's license. You will also need a regular FFL before applying for the SOT. |
yea. Randy Weaver got his whole family and home destroyed because he cut down a shotgun barrel just a fraction of an inch below the 18" minimum. for 600 bucks you could get a parts kit from Model 1 sales or other places that would be 100% cool. then add them to your stripped lower and you are safe and clear. i would hate for anyone to get pinched and it sounds at best you are in a very bad place. you can do the deal only if you take only the good parts. Have your friend destroy the bad parts before you get over there to buy them. those are hammer and trigger and receiver. it is safe for you to buy the the barrel (upper with bolt), butt stock with it's parts and the pistol grip. read me to find out what the bad parts look like. treat all bad parts like crack cocaine. if you so much as see them the deal is off and walk away. (watch me get pinched for obstructing "justice") 
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People find stuff all the time. Make sure it is not papered. A lawyer sending a letter to the ATFE and your local PD or Sheriff's Office holding on to the possible contraband (Lower only) would go a long way in convincing a jury or even a DA that there was no criminal intent. Registered receivers go for 12K. Do not throw away a winning lottery ticket due to irrational fear. I took a Browning HiPower my Dad found in a Mobile Home he was paid to tear down to the PD and they ran the number. It came up OK. I have a copy of the inquiry the officer did. If it turned up hot 10 years from now due to an input error I would have a defense to the possesion of a stolen gun. My dad was gonna torch cut the HiPower out of just that fear. |
| That's good advice. I just don't want to risk it in exchange for a perfectly legit AR. I'm guessing that the fact that it was behind a drawer in a dresser means that it's illegal. If I take possesion, have a lawyer contact the ATF, and it turns out to be papered can I keep it? |
If you really did know the law, you would know that, under no circumstance (including your "special circumstance"), may ANY unregistered m16 be put into the machine gun registry for civilian sales. You found it? Great, the atf doesn't care. They enforce the law, and the law says you or your friend are/is in possession of contraband. You may keep the parts, but the lower receiver and the fire control group must be destroyed. Also, if you knew the laws, you wouldn't have posted this topic because a) this topic involves a question about the law I mentioned and b) ATF guys (NfA-Dan, for example), frequent these boards. A topic entitled "Unregistered M16 Transfer" is bound to get their attention, since the atf is the agency charged with hunting down people with unregistered NFA weapons (which means you/your friend). I am NOT trying to start an argument, I'm trying to keep you out of jail. |
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