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Hypervelocity Rockets ( first static test on page 5 ) (Page 5 of 6)
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@fadedsun - our member in Texas who has two armored vehicles, and knows many of the other armored VIC owners. If he can't help you, I have a friend w/ a Sherman who might be willing to attend, but you'd probably have to pay to trailer it there & back. |
I sell firearms produced by the finest child labor in the world, be it Filipino, Muslim, Mormon, Arizonan, or Texan.
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Originally Posted By bayonet_shrew: Is it just me, or does this look like a double circumference roll crimp holding the nose assembly to the main body? I can't make out what is holding the tail section though... https://i.imgur.com/UsEVPQJ.png Yes that appears to be the case, I’m looking at doing a few rockets in that style too made from aluminum , a good friend made me a tool that could do that. That rocket has a wrap on it to record spin data on the highspeed camera so it covered the rear grooves, here’s without the wrap   I hired a researcher who’s going to the national archives to recover more photos and hopefully video this week or next |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: @fadedsun - our member in Texas who has two armored vehicles, and knows many of the other armored VIC owners. If he can't help you, I have a friend w/ a Sherman who might be willing to attend, but you'd probably have to pay to trailer it there & back. That would be awesome, I did get in contact with a friend who part owns a very large range in TX that has a bunker for testing so I am going to see if that’s a viable option |
| Depending on where you are in Florida, and where you're going in Texas, you might could make the trip in a day - U-Haul would be cheaper than renting an RV. |
I sell firearms produced by the finest child labor in the world, be it Filipino, Muslim, Mormon, Arizonan, or Texan.
 Forgotten Rockets : Swizzlestick Q&A |
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Good Q&A. |
I sell firearms produced by the finest child labor in the world, be it Filipino, Muslim, Mormon, Arizonan, or Texan.
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My dad worked for the Army on rocket structures and brought home all sorts of souvenirs when I was a kid. One I recall was the steel spike from a kinetic rocket - it was a test to determine if they could make normal-length rockets fast enough to have effective kinetic effects on armored targets so that they could be fired from helicopters. The thinking was that if you could make the rockets lighter a helicopter could carry more of them. They were working on reducing weight/drag and increasing motor impulse. It never went anywhere since the speed is simply unnecessary at normal 2.75 inch rocket ranges and rockets are not accurate enough to reliably strike a target. I'm no rocket surgeon but I don't believe that smokeless powder is a suitable propellant unless you have a way to make it a homogenous solid. ie. you need a solid fuel/oxidizer mix. |
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Originally Posted By Morgan321: My dad worked for the Army on rocket structures and brought home all sorts of souvenirs when I was a kid. One I recall was the steel spike from a kinetic rocket - it was a test to determine if they could make normal-length rockets fast enough to have effective kinetic effects on armored targets so that they could be fired from helicopters. The thinking was that if you could make the rockets lighter a helicopter could carry more of them. They were working on reducing weight/drag and increasing motor impulse. It never went anywhere since the speed is simply unnecessary at normal 2.75 inch rocket ranges and rockets are not accurate enough to reliably strike a target. I'm no rocket surgeon but I don't believe that smokeless powder is a suitable propellant unless you have a way to make it a homogenous solid. ie. you need a solid fuel/oxidizer mix. That sounds like the very early SPIKE Hypervelocity Rocket or Arbalist, did he work at Redstone Arsenal (MICOM)? Later developed SPIKE using the composite cases were one of the most accurate unguided rockets when they worked out the ideal spin rate and stabilization. The smokeless powder rocket is more of a side project testing a patent was specifically designed to work with granular propellant, my current rocket using composite rocket propellant (the same type as the spike rocket motor) |
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Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: That sounds like the very early SPIKE Hypervelocity Rocket or Arbalist, did he work at Redstone Arsenal (MICOM)? Later developed SPIKE using the composite cases were one of the most accurate unguided rockets when they worked out the ideal spin rate and stabilization. The smokeless powder rocket is more of a side project testing a patent was specifically designed to work with granular propellant, my current rocket using composite rocket propellant (the same type as the spike rocket motor) Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: That sounds like the very early SPIKE Hypervelocity Rocket or Arbalist, did he work at Redstone Arsenal (MICOM)? Later developed SPIKE using the composite cases were one of the most accurate unguided rockets when they worked out the ideal spin rate and stabilization. The smokeless powder rocket is more of a side project testing a patent was specifically designed to work with granular propellant, my current rocket using composite rocket propellant (the same type as the spike rocket motor) Yes he did. Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: The original motorcase is aluminum, I’m doing it in carbon fiber for added strength and less weight, giving me a better chance of hitting hypervelocity speed On the spin of rockets.... today's normal 2.75 inch rockets spin one direction due to flutes in the nozzle. The propellant burns out very quickly and the fins are aligned such that they slow the rotation and eventually fully stop the rotation and spin the rocket the opposite direction. The purpose for this is that the initial motor induced spin is needed to keep the rocket accurately pointed as it accelerates out of the tube. The slowing spin rate is done for ballistic purposes. I think there are even ablative nozzle flutes so that you can get an extremely rapid spin-up on launch and the flutes erode away so that they don't create drag in the nozzle and waste impulse. |
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It’s a long thread so it might be confusing but the original plan to was recreate the SPIKE , but due to cost and the propellant legality (using sub micron ap is now explosive material) I decided to work on an earlier (non MICOM) hypervelocity project called swizzlestick that used an aluminum motorcase as its kill vehicle as well as its motorcase I have a ton of documentation on SPIKE, if you want to look through it, please DM and I can share , some maybe directly from your father, did he receive any patents because I found a couple directly related to the composite case ? |
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Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: It’s a long thread so it might be confusing but the original plan to was recreate the SPIKE , but due to cost and the propellant legality (using sub micron ap is now explosive material) I decided to work on an earlier (non MICOM) hypervelocity project called swizzlestick that used an aluminum motorcase as its kill vehicle as well as its motorcase I have a ton of documentation on SPIKE, if you want to look through it, please DM and I can share , some maybe directly from your father, did he receive any patents because I found a couple directly related to the composite case ? I recall the spike name. He had lots of patents related to metal corrosion prevention and composite rocket structures. Is this project just for fun? Speed is just a tradeoff of thrust vs drag and what your time/budget allows? |
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Originally Posted By Morgan321: I recall the spike name. He had lots of patents related to metal corrosion prevention and composite rocket structures. Is this project just for fun? Speed is just a tradeoff of thrust vs drag and what your time/budget allows? I have a book series where I recreate historical rocket designs and go in depth on the history and science behind the projects.  I’ll send you a DM, I don’t want to inadvertently post his name on a public forum and have it tied to your account without your consent |
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Originally Posted By Morgan321: Have you checked with the amcom historian's office? Spoke to her back in 2023, they didn’t have much information at the time, I sent a follow up email regarding the arbalist rocket project that was tested prior to SPIKE but have yet to hear back since January |
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Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: (using sub micron ap is now explosive material) I wonder... if there's a "Tannerite Loophole" that can be exploited here.  You can obtain over-micron AP, but presumably, safety issues aside, grinding it, screening it, or ball-milling it into sub-micron mesh size yourself, you run afoul of FEL, transport, & safe-storage magazine requirements. I wonder if there's a composite motor/fuel process that produces sub-micron AP only as it's mixed with HTPB, using a solvent/carrier or some other chemical process. Easier said than done, obviously.  But, I'd at least guess that a sub-micron AP formula that's permanently bound up in the motor composite matrix and was never a free-standing ingredient that was transported or stored, is legal. And, if it was simple & effective, it would potentially be useful to anyone who uses sub-micron AP now, and does already jump through all the regulatory hurdles. Because it may be safer & easier in practical terms. Just like how Tannerite is legal. And all the nitroglycerin everyone on Arfcom owns is legal, because it's all bound up in double-base NC smokeless powder. |
Like most Americans, I learned all I needed to know about the Vietnam War by watching M*A*S*H*...
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Originally Posted By AJ_Dual: I wonder... if there's a "Tannerite Loophole" that can be exploited here. You can obtain over-micron AP, but presumably, safety issues aside, grinding it, screening it, or ball-milling it into sub-micron mesh size yourself, you run afoul of FEL, transport, & safe-storage magazine requirements. I wonder if there's a composite motor/fuel process that produces sub-micron AP only as it's mixed with HTPB, using a solvent/carrier or some other chemical process. Easier said than done, obviously. But, I'd at least guess that a sub-micron AP formula that's permanently bound up in the motor composite matrix and was never a free-standing ingredient that was transported or stored, is legal. And, if it was simple & effective, it would potentially be useful to anyone who uses sub-micron AP now, and does already jump through all the regulatory hurdles. Because it may be safer & easier in practical terms. Just like how Tannerite is legal. And all the nitroglycerin everyone on Arfcom owns is legal, because it's all bound up in double-base NC smokeless powder. That was not clarified in the 2009 lawsuit win, it would require a lot of work with attorneys to fully flush out to know when it’s mixed, is it now a “safe compound” or does the fuel become high explosive. The second part is sub micron AP is pretty dangerous and to get it down to that size, you have to do different methods to get it that low safely. I found several patents to free dry process AP to make 3-5 micron AP but that would require assistance from a chemist to do it safely. Unfortunately all theses things are outside my budget but that’s the genius of the swizzlestick, it was made prior to the sub micron AP becoming very popular and relied on relatively weak propellant and used its L/D and small drag profile to achieve the velocity we want |
Starting to print the propellant coring jigs so that the propellant grains is progressively increasing in core diameter, I’m going to do a batch of 3 motors with the weakest propellant to test in May , kinda debating just testing all the propellant formulas I have in the same day but that’s more of a gamble, if the motor fails for the weaker propellant then I’ve wasted on all the other motors I assemble as once it’s a buillt there’s no going disassembling. It’s a long drive and with all the kids activities it’s not easy to drive 2-3 hours to my static testing area. High risk(wasting money) high reward (saving time)   
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 My current jigs would have not been enough to keep the hole through center straight enough so spent last couple weeks looking for a tall drill press locally to core 7” deep then spin the 14” grain upside down and core the other remaining half I also filed a form 1 for the new launcher, hopefully gets approved soon. The base frame is the frame/receiver so I’ll be able to use this for a wide variety of projects . The design uses all off the shelf components to keep the launcher as simple and cheap as possible 
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  Hopefully will weld up the launcher over the weekend Was sent this video that shows exactly the system i plan to use to spin stabilize the rocket (with the help of the stabilizer Cone  CONVAIR LOBBER RESUPPLY MISSILE SYSTEM 1950s PROMOTIONAL FILM 28844 |
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Sorry for lack of posts Inhibiting the propellant grains has been a challenge in both methods, definitely need a mini lathe to rapidly adjust my RPMs , the carbon black inhibitor doesn’t drill very well at the low RPMs I cut the propellant at. It rips out large chunks as it’s much harder than the propellant. I could reduce carbon content to make it easier to cut too. The thickness of the inhibitor is exaggerated just to get a better understanding of how it cuts The aluminum shield method is definitely better if it’s a part of the mandrel when pouring propellant grains, too difficult to add to pre-poured grains. When HTPB is added to the underside of the shield, it gets had to press it into the wall of the grain evenly. I could thin out the HTPB but the carbon black inhibitor seems like a better option for prepoured grains. While I’m figuring out the inhibitor, I’m going to do static test with an uninhibited motor (weaker propellant to get a baseline and real world data). Static test stand is almost ready, gotta wire up the load cell to collect thrust data It’s not called rocket science for nothing       
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 Will my Hypervelocity Rocket Survive ? First static test done ! Here’s a video update on the project |
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Originally Posted By JonathanwFL:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK_LiFVFeg8First static test done ! Here's a video update on the project |
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Originally Posted By bayonet_shrew: I hope the new inhibitor works. Have you thought of testing the motors with aluminum tubes to see how they handle the motor grain pulsing to see if they shatter and break the same or just rupture? The original was aluminum and I do plan to make an aluminum version The pulse is not supposed to happen, that was part of the remaining grains burning and failing to gain full pressure. It’s called chugging and if all goes well on the next test, it’ll be like the first few milliseconds but last .5-1 seconds |
     Successfully made a new inhibitor formula and application for applying it to the motor grain. This is a huge hurdle that has been overcome. Getting ready to inhibit the remaining grains needed and then onto motor assembly next [tweet]https://x.com/wild_arms_randd/status/1973206144530411842?s=46&t=wC8QRPlmbmNIBAO0WBfctg[/tweet] |
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The Imgur has not been working for posting new photos, so sorry for lack of updates. I need to find a new hosting site Updates: I have a second swizzlestick rocket assembled, I have assembled a Data module to collect Pressure , and thrust data. It’s not my strong suit so it took a while to figure out the wiring pressure transducer was back ordered. I’m hoping to test next week with the new inhibitor on the grain. I also fixed the test stand with new mounting points for the rocket that are cheaper. |
Latest update on the swizzlestick  Pushing the Limit to Build a Hypervelocity Rocket - Swizzlestick Test 2 (With Data) |
 US Hypervelocity Rocket Air Defense Program - SETTER / SPIKE - MICOM Archival Footage New footage I obtained of the original SPIKe rocket, working on getting 15-30 more tapes digitized |
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Originally Posted By JonathanwFL: Sorry for the delay, spent the last month design an anti drone system to submit to the military for the US Army Xtech Program . Should be mixing the next batch as I found a solution for the propellant mandrel being to wobbly @JonathanwFL Have you ever considered reaching out the the guy from Crunch Lab? He actually was a NASA engineer and now does youtube (he also has a show on Prime). Maybe he'd be interested in helping/making a show, you'd both benefit. |
 SETTER / SPIKE Hypervelocity Rockets tested against Helicopter |
Hypervelocity Rockets ( first static test on page 5 ) (Page 5 of 6)
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