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Posted: 9/30/2013 10:09:05 PM EDT
| So I pre-ordered a MPX-C and plan on getting the suppressor kit. The theoretical question I pose is as follows. It comes with a 9mm barrel and perm attached "brake" / monocore baffle stack. When the caliber conversions are released, if I were to buy one in the same configuration, and assuming sig uses the same brake outter diameter for that caliber, can anyone speculate if it will be legal to switch the tube from one barrel/brake to the next.. Since the ATF approved the brake as a brake, one would technically not be in possession of spare suppressor parts when the registered tube is utilized on the second stack. Thoughts? We're in new territory with the design of this can so its hard to tell...sort of like a sparrow monocore permanently attached to a barrel and only buying the tube. |
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The Sig muzzle brake is no more a suppressor part than a Brakeout is.... Mmm, not so much. U can't add a hollow tube to a brakeout and expect it to suppress sound. In fact a brakeshield does exactly that and does not create a silencer. The MPX's "brake" on the other hand, does. It is a baffle system. And as far as I know, the ATF has yet to approve the design, and if they did, I would not be surprised if they changed their minds later. |
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The Sig muzzle brake is no more a suppressor part than a Brakeout is.... BS...AAC doesn't sell a kit to turn their mount into a suppressor. Sig does. Its a monocore baffle. I'm calling a spade a spade. The ATF aren't complete idiots and from introduction it was no big secret what it is. |
http://www.rockwellarms.com/Store/ProductDetails/Sig-Sauer-MPX-9mm-357-Sig-Silencer-Kit-SDMPX-C9-KITSig Sauer MPX 9mm/.357 Sig Silencer Kit SDMPX-C9-KITPrice: $279.95 MSRP: $299.00 |
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BS...AAC doesn't sell a kit to turn their mount into a suppressor. Sig does. Its a monocore baffle. I'm calling a spade a spade. The ATF aren't complete idiots and from introduction it was no big secret what it is. Quoted:
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The Sig muzzle brake is no more a suppressor part than a Brakeout is.... BS...AAC doesn't sell a kit to turn their mount into a suppressor. Sig does. Its a monocore baffle. I'm calling a spade a spade. The ATF aren't complete idiots and from introduction it was no big secret what it is. AAC advertises their brakes as a baffle. |
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Mmm, not so much. U can't add a hollow tube to a brakeout and expect it to suppress sound. In fact a brakeshield does exactly that and does not create a silencer. The MPX's "brake" on the other hand, does. It is a baffle system. And as far as I know, the ATF has yet to approve the design, and if they did, I would not be surprised if they changed their minds later. Quoted:
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The Sig muzzle brake is no more a suppressor part than a Brakeout is.... Mmm, not so much. U can't add a hollow tube to a brakeout and expect it to suppress sound. In fact a brakeshield does exactly that and does not create a silencer. The MPX's "brake" on the other hand, does. It is a baffle system. And as far as I know, the ATF has yet to approve the design, and if they did, I would not be surprised if they changed their minds later. The brake shield doesn't reduce noise. |
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AAC advertises their brakes as a baffle. Quoted:
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The Sig muzzle brake is no more a suppressor part than a Brakeout is.... BS...AAC doesn't sell a kit to turn their mount into a suppressor. Sig does. Its a monocore baffle. I'm calling a spade a spade. The ATF aren't complete idiots and from introduction it was no big secret what it is. AAC advertises their brakes as a baffle. They state it acts as a sacrificial baffle to reduce wear on the blast baffle (1st real baffle obviously) of the can. Same firearm, same ammo, same can, a 3 prong AAC Blackout flash hider meters the same as the AAC brake. |
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The OPS brakes are 1.5dB quieter than flash suppressors when using their cans, I would expect similar results from AAC products. You can get the same reduction in sound from one load to the next. A change in Db that small isn't even discernable to the human ear. Point being...their baffle system is not the same as a two chamber brake with almost no internal volume if you were to enclose it. |
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The OPS brakes are 1.5dB quieter than flash suppressors when using their cans, I would expect similar results from AAC products. I was always curious if the brake mounts measured a hair quieter than flash suppressors. I know in person you cannot tell the difference |
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You can get the same reduction in sound from one load to the next. A change in Db that small isn't even discernable to the human ear. Point being...their baffle system is not the same as a two chamber brake with almost no internal volume if you were to enclose it. Quoted:
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The OPS brakes are 1.5dB quieter than flash suppressors when using their cans, I would expect similar results from AAC products. You can get the same reduction in sound from one load to the next. A change in Db that small isn't even discernable to the human ear. Point being...their baffle system is not the same as a two chamber brake with almost no internal volume if you were to enclose it. A couple of decibels was enough to get the moderators on the XM177 on the registry. |
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Not sure what you're trying to argue...any device that drops the Db level consistently is considered a suppressor/moderator. Nobody is arguing against that point and you're going off track. The discussion is speculation on how the ATF will view these. Will the can solely be the tube and endcap? Once you add a registered tube to the "brake", is that brake now considered a silencer part if you remove the tube and endcap...etc...
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| A muzzle brake with an adapter built in is absolutely designed to be suppressed. That is everything from an SFMB to the MPX-C. The only difference is that the little muzzle brakes are designed to have a tube with baffles in front of them as well and in the MPX the entire baffle stack is in the muzzle brake. |
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So...after I get a MPX-C and Sig's suppressor kit...can I make my own muzzle brakes and use the kit on my 10/22 and 300BLK upper?  Forget the MPX. Can I just get the Sig suppressor kit and use my own muzzle brakes? Further, my Isis.22 apparently has a muzzle brake inside it. Can I make new muzzle brakes for it now? |
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Forget the MPX. Can I just get the Sig suppressor kit and use my own muzzle brakes? Further, my Isis.22 apparently has a muzzle brake inside it. Can I make new muzzle brakes for it now? Quoted:
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So...after I get a MPX-C and Sig's suppressor kit...can I make my own muzzle brakes and use the kit on my 10/22 and 300BLK upper? Forget the MPX. Can I just get the Sig suppressor kit and use my own muzzle brakes? Further, my Isis.22 apparently has a muzzle brake inside it. Can I make new muzzle brakes for it now? Sort of the point I was making. Start milling out a monocore "brake" and you could get yourself in a shitstorm. Where's the line? Just by calling it a brake doesn't mean the ATF won't come down on your for MFG'ing suppressor parts w/out an approved F1. |
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The brake shield doesn't reduce noise. Quoted:
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The Sig muzzle brake is no more a suppressor part than a Brakeout is.... Mmm, not so much. U can't add a hollow tube to a brakeout and expect it to suppress sound. In fact a brakeshield does exactly that and does not create a silencer. The MPX's "brake" on the other hand, does. It is a baffle system. And as far as I know, the ATF has yet to approve the design, and if they did, I would not be surprised if they changed their minds later. The brake shield doesn't reduce noise. That was my point...adding a brakeshield (tube) doesn't make it a silencer. Ergo the brake is NOT a baffle, unlike Sigs monocore "brake." |
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Sure they are. They are "Sacrificial baffles." So now we have an unregulated muzzle device that is a baffle. Calling it a sacrificial "baffle" is a marketing thing. It protects your blast baffle of your suppressor by taking the brunt of the flame front from unburnt powder, it certainly does not act like a true suppressor baffle. Maybe if they made the brake 7" long and had multiple chambers, so when u added a tube it would become a silencer core. My point is, comparing Sigs "brake" to AAC's or YHM's is like comparing apples to oranges! |
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Calling it a sacrificial "baffle" is a marketing thing. It protects your blast baffle of your suppressor by taking the brunt of the flame front from unburnt powder, it certainly does not act like a true suppressor baffle. Maybe if they made the brake 7" long and had multiple chambers, so when u added a tube it would become a silencer core. My point is, comparing Sigs "brake" to AAC's or YHM's is like comparing apples to oranges! Quoted:
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Sure they are. They are "Sacrificial baffles." So now we have an unregulated muzzle device that is a baffle. Calling it a sacrificial "baffle" is a marketing thing. It protects your blast baffle of your suppressor by taking the brunt of the flame front from unburnt powder, it certainly does not act like a true suppressor baffle. Maybe if they made the brake 7" long and had multiple chambers, so when u added a tube it would become a silencer core. My point is, comparing Sigs "brake" to AAC's or YHM's is like comparing apples to oranges! They are, and act as, baffles. That they are marginally effective is immaterial. |
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AAC advertises their brakes as a baffle. Quoted:
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The Sig muzzle brake is no more a suppressor part than a Brakeout is.... BS...AAC doesn't sell a kit to turn their mount into a suppressor. Sig does. Its a monocore baffle. I'm calling a spade a spade. The ATF aren't complete idiots and from introduction it was no big secret what it is. AAC advertises their brakes as a baffle. The brake makes the unsuppressed rifle louder than a FH. |
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It's very simple - the serialized part is the suppressor - the outer tube. You can have brakes on every rifle. Stop poking the dead lion as another gent said.
ATF already ruled the Sig ok. For the love of god stop asking questions they will twist around and ban more stuff with. Jesus. |
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It's very simple - the serialized part is the suppressor - the outer tube. You can have brakes on every rifle. Stop poking the dead lion as another gent said. ATF already ruled the Sig ok. For the love of god stop asking questions they will twist around and ban more stuff with. Jesus. Did they? I've heard different stories on whether tech branch gave them final approval, and last I heard these guns weren't actually in production yet. What's the latest? |
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A lot of theory, discussion and plain old BSing for a gun that is entirely vaporware right now. According to Sig the pistol will be released in Dec/Jan and the Rifle with brake a few months later. While the barrel with perm attached brake may not be in production yet, I'm pretty darn sure the receivers, barrels, and other associated parts are well into production, so "vaporware" it certainly isn't. CMS |
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I have seen them. They had one at a recent expo onboard MCBQ. Quoted:
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You seen them on walls? Have you seen them in independant reviews in every magazine? No? Vaporware. It doesn't become anything else until it actually materializes. I have seen them. They had one at a recent expo onboard MCBQ. To be fair, I understand what he means and prototypes and trade show walls don't really count. The Masada, the Masoud, SR47, Herring MCS, Vltor Bren Ten, etc... have all been on trade show walls and have not been produced. That said I don't know what the production schedule and release dates are for the MPX. It it coming, but they're not out in the wild yet. They're all Sig-owned prototypes. |
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To be fair, I understand what he means and prototypes and trade show walls don't really count. The Masada, the Masoud, SR47, Herring MCS, Vltor Bren Ten, etc... have all been on trade show walls and have not been produced. That said I don't know what the production schedule and release dates are for the MPX. It it coming, but they're not out in the wild yet. They're all Sig-owned prototypes. Quoted:
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You seen them on walls? Have you seen them in independant reviews in every magazine? No? Vaporware. It doesn't become anything else until it actually materializes. I have seen them. They had one at a recent expo onboard MCBQ. To be fair, I understand what he means and prototypes and trade show walls don't really count. The Masada, the Masoud, SR47, Herring MCS, Vltor Bren Ten, etc... have all been on trade show walls and have not been produced. That said I don't know what the production schedule and release dates are for the MPX. It it coming, but they're not out in the wild yet. They're all Sig-owned prototypes. This. And everyone should know the gun industry is TERRIBLE for this. Add, AAC Honey Badger, MSAR 9mm Aug, Magpul PDW, Saiga/AK in 9mm, Vltor suppressor, and I'm sure there are many many more. Don't even remotely get excited for the SIG MPX until it's on shelves. Now, that said, it's a cool idea. It's a modernized MP5 style gun, AR controls, but we don't really know the gas system. Still, until it actually exists outside of 10 physical units that make the trade show route and might land in an article here or there... It's vaporware. |
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This. And everyone should know the gun industry is TERRIBLE for this. Add, AAC Honey Badger, MSAR 9mm Aug, Magpul PDW, Saiga/AK in 9mm, Vltor suppressor, and I'm sure there are many many more. Don't even remotely get excited for the SIG MPX until it's on shelves. Now, that said, it's a cool idea. It's a modernized MP5 style gun, AR controls, but we don't really know the gas system. Still, until it actually exists outside of 10 physical units that make the trade show route and might land in an article here or there... It's vaporware. Quoted:
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You seen them on walls? Have you seen them in independant reviews in every magazine? No? Vaporware. It doesn't become anything else until it actually materializes. I have seen them. They had one at a recent expo onboard MCBQ. To be fair, I understand what he means and prototypes and trade show walls don't really count. The Masada, the Masoud, SR47, Herring MCS, Vltor Bren Ten, etc... have all been on trade show walls and have not been produced. That said I don't know what the production schedule and release dates are for the MPX. It it coming, but they're not out in the wild yet. They're all Sig-owned prototypes. This. And everyone should know the gun industry is TERRIBLE for this. Add, AAC Honey Badger, MSAR 9mm Aug, Magpul PDW, Saiga/AK in 9mm, Vltor suppressor, and I'm sure there are many many more. Don't even remotely get excited for the SIG MPX until it's on shelves. Now, that said, it's a cool idea. It's a modernized MP5 style gun, AR controls, but we don't really know the gas system. Still, until it actually exists outside of 10 physical units that make the trade show route and might land in an article here or there... It's vaporware. Other than being 9mm, it's nothing like an MP5 The videos (and some literature) have said it's a short stroke gas piston, which is some of the appeal of this subgun over others which are blowback. |
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This. And everyone should know the gun industry is TERRIBLE for this. Add, AAC Honey Badger, MSAR 9mm Aug, Magpul PDW, Saiga/AK in 9mm, Vltor suppressor, and I'm sure there are many many more. Don't even remotely get excited for the SIG MPX until it's on shelves. Now, that said, it's a cool idea. It's a modernized MP5 style gun, AR controls, but we don't really know the gas system. Still, until it actually exists outside of 10 physical units that make the trade show route and might land in an article here or there... It's vaporware. Quoted:
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You seen them on walls? Have you seen them in independant reviews in every magazine? No? Vaporware. It doesn't become anything else until it actually materializes. I have seen them. They had one at a recent expo onboard MCBQ. To be fair, I understand what he means and prototypes and trade show walls don't really count. The Masada, the Masoud, SR47, Herring MCS, Vltor Bren Ten, etc... have all been on trade show walls and have not been produced. That said I don't know what the production schedule and release dates are for the MPX. It it coming, but they're not out in the wild yet. They're all Sig-owned prototypes. This. And everyone should know the gun industry is TERRIBLE for this. Add, AAC Honey Badger, MSAR 9mm Aug, Magpul PDW, Saiga/AK in 9mm, Vltor suppressor, and I'm sure there are many many more. Don't even remotely get excited for the SIG MPX until it's on shelves. Now, that said, it's a cool idea. It's a modernized MP5 style gun, AR controls, but we don't really know the gas system. Still, until it actually exists outside of 10 physical units that make the trade show route and might land in an article here or there... It's vaporware. I'm hopeful. Magpul doesn't have the MFG capabilities currently to MFG firearms on a mass scale. KAC's SR-47 is low on the priority list as they're bogged with military orders and can't even keep up with SR-25 production, the honey badger is a 3 stamp gun which puts it out of reality for most people and would likely result in very low sales (doesn't do much more than their 9" .300 AR upper with a can), MSAR went out of business because the owner bled the company dry with personal purchases, the Saiga relies on imports...etc. There are lots of reasons those firearms haven't made it to production or the market. Sig has the capabilities to MFG, and a lot of development into a product line that cost them a lot of money...not just a one-off prototype. I'm pretty confident it will make it to market sooner than later. They're a lot bigger company than someone like ARES, who took deposits and strung customers along for more than half a decade until you could buy a version of their Shrike on the open market.... |
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Other than being 9mm, it's nothing like an MP5 The videos (and some literature) have said it's a short stroke gas piston, which is some of the appeal of this subgun over others which are blowback. Quoted:
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This. And everyone should know the gun industry is TERRIBLE for this. Add, AAC Honey Badger, MSAR 9mm Aug, Magpul PDW, Saiga/AK in 9mm, Vltor suppressor, and I'm sure there are many many more. Don't even remotely get excited for the SIG MPX until it's on shelves. Now, that said, it's a cool idea. It's a modernized MP5 style gun, AR controls, but we don't really know the gas system. Still, until it actually exists outside of 10 physical units that make the trade show route and might land in an article here or there... It's vaporware. Other than being 9mm, it's nothing like an MP5 The videos (and some literature) have said it's a short stroke gas piston, which is some of the appeal of this subgun over others which are blowback. Watching the videos, and looking at the dis-assembled pictures around the lineage of the gas system is clear. Whether such a system can be reliable on with certain pistol caliber cartridges on a production scale is yet to seen. 9mm Luger has a pretty wide loading range in commercial factory ammo, if they have made a gas system that can handle this, they have really done well. The .357SIG version should be a lot more forgiving, as the ammo loaded for this is in a much narrower and high performance range. I am excited to see the MPX in the world, and I hope it will be a big success. Quoted:
I'm hopeful. Magpul doesn't have the MFG capabilities currently to MFG firearms on a mass scale. KAC's SR-47 is low on the priority list as they're bogged with military orders and can't even keep up with SR-25 production, the honey badger is a 3 stamp gun which puts it out of reality for most people and would likely result in very low sales (doesn't do much more than their 9" .300 AR upper with a can), MSAR went out of business because the owner bled the company dry with personal purchases, the Saiga relies on imports...etc. There are lots of reasons those firearms haven't made it to production or the market. Sig has the capabilities to MFG, and a lot of development into a product line that cost them a lot of money...not just a one-off prototype. I'm pretty confident it will make it to market sooner than later. They're a lot bigger company than someone like ARES, who took deposits and strung customers along for more than half a decade until you could buy a version of their Shrike on the open market.... 1. SBR 2. Suppressor 3. ??? |
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Watching the videos, and looking at the dis-assembled pictures around the lineage of the gas system is clear. Whether such a system can be reliable on with certain pistol caliber cartridges on a production scale is yet to seen. 9mm Luger has a pretty wide loading range in commercial factory ammo, if they have made a gas system that can handle this, they have really done well. The .357SIG version should be a lot more forgiving, as the ammo loaded for this is in a much narrower and high performance range. I am excited to see the MPX in the world, and I hope it will be a big success. 1. SBR 2. Suppressor 3. ??? Quoted:
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This. And everyone should know the gun industry is TERRIBLE for this. Add, AAC Honey Badger, MSAR 9mm Aug, Magpul PDW, Saiga/AK in 9mm, Vltor suppressor, and I'm sure there are many many more. Don't even remotely get excited for the SIG MPX until it's on shelves. Now, that said, it's a cool idea. It's a modernized MP5 style gun, AR controls, but we don't really know the gas system. Still, until it actually exists outside of 10 physical units that make the trade show route and might land in an article here or there... It's vaporware. Other than being 9mm, it's nothing like an MP5 The videos (and some literature) have said it's a short stroke gas piston, which is some of the appeal of this subgun over others which are blowback. Watching the videos, and looking at the dis-assembled pictures around the lineage of the gas system is clear. Whether such a system can be reliable on with certain pistol caliber cartridges on a production scale is yet to seen. 9mm Luger has a pretty wide loading range in commercial factory ammo, if they have made a gas system that can handle this, they have really done well. The .357SIG version should be a lot more forgiving, as the ammo loaded for this is in a much narrower and high performance range. I am excited to see the MPX in the world, and I hope it will be a big success. Quoted:
I'm hopeful. Magpul doesn't have the MFG capabilities currently to MFG firearms on a mass scale. KAC's SR-47 is low on the priority list as they're bogged with military orders and can't even keep up with SR-25 production, the honey badger is a 3 stamp gun which puts it out of reality for most people and would likely result in very low sales (doesn't do much more than their 9" .300 AR upper with a can), MSAR went out of business because the owner bled the company dry with personal purchases, the Saiga relies on imports...etc. There are lots of reasons those firearms haven't made it to production or the market. Sig has the capabilities to MFG, and a lot of development into a product line that cost them a lot of money...not just a one-off prototype. I'm pretty confident it will make it to market sooner than later. They're a lot bigger company than someone like ARES, who took deposits and strung customers along for more than half a decade until you could buy a version of their Shrike on the open market.... 1. SBR 2. Suppressor 3. ??? The suppressor is a 2-piece design that requires multiple stamps. |
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The suppressor is a 2-piece design that requires multiple stamps. Quoted:
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I'm hopeful. Magpul doesn't have the MFG capabilities currently to MFG firearms on a mass scale. KAC's SR-47 is low on the priority list as they're bogged with military orders and can't even keep up with SR-25 production, the honey badger is a 3 stamp gun which puts it out of reality for most people and would likely result in very low sales (doesn't do much more than their 9" .300 AR upper with a can), MSAR went out of business because the owner bled the company dry with personal purchases, the Saiga relies on imports...etc. There are lots of reasons those firearms haven't made it to production or the market. Sig has the capabilities to MFG, and a lot of development into a product line that cost them a lot of money...not just a one-off prototype. I'm pretty confident it will make it to market sooner than later. They're a lot bigger company than someone like ARES, who took deposits and strung customers along for more than half a decade until you could buy a version of their Shrike on the open market.... 1. SBR 2. Suppressor 3. ??? The suppressor is a 2-piece design that requires multiple stamps. That'll do it. |
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Other than being 9mm, it's nothing like an MP5 LOL. Yea, Ok. I guess piston LWRC and DI Noveskes are only similar in that they are both 556? Look at the marketing and options they've shown: SIG MPX --> HK MP5 SIG MPX-K --> HK MP5K SIG MPX-P --> HK94 Pistol SIG MPX-SD --> HK MP5SD The Sig has a collapsible stock where the rails slide into notches in the receiver... Just like the HK A3 stock. Upper and Lower split the exact same with with pins. The only defining differences are the gas system and the trigger group on the SIG is AR based. Which at least the trigger group is a good idea. I don't know about the gas system... I have my doubts sig has a system that runs as well as my roller locked guns when suppressed and unsuppressed. Yea, they are in 9mm... But to say that's their only difference is just being foolish. It's a direct replacement to the MP5, being marketed as such, and borrows features from. |
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A couple of decibels was enough to get the moderators on the XM177 on the registry. Quoted:
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The OPS brakes are 1.5dB quieter than flash suppressors when using their cans, I would expect similar results from AAC products. You can get the same reduction in sound from one load to the next. A change in Db that small isn't even discernable to the human ear. Point being...their baffle system is not the same as a two chamber brake with almost no internal volume if you were to enclose it. A couple of decibels was enough to get the moderators on the XM177 on the registry. Let's not forget the ATF freaking out over the OPS Inc muzzle brake covers a few years back, either. |
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