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Posted: 1/5/2002 11:58:15 AM EDT
I carry my 1911 in the C&L position. It is an 80 series so it has the firing pin block. Is there anyone who thinks that this isn't safe? If so how do you carry yours???
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 12:03:52 PM EDT
Good for you!

Tell us in what type of leather/Kydex rig you use.

Unless, you are going Mexican Carry, in that case you're going to shoot your nuts off.

Link Posted: 1/5/2002 12:09:33 PM EDT
I wouldnt carry cocked and locked for the sole reason of liability in the case I had to use the weapon. Jurors for some reason see cocked and locked as a intent to do bloody bodily harm. Even though in all reality all Glocks are cocked and locked. The 1911 is a great, accurate, slim, etc... gun but I dont think they hold up in court well because of the SA trigger.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 12:21:47 PM EDT
I use a Milt Sparks Versa Max 2. It is custom made for my officers. Best of all, I only have $375 invested in gun and holster.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 12:24:52 PM EDT
What 1911 do you have?
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 12:28:19 PM EDT
Colt Officers 45 ACP. Not exactly a 1911 but close enough:)
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 12:31:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 1:50:05 PM EDT
Condition 1 is the only way to carry a 1911 for personal defense. Violent encounters will be over almost as soon as they start. Carrying a firearm in a less than ready condition will only give further advantage to your assailant. Part of surviving a fight is being ready, that includes your sidearm. The 1911 is an inherently safe design, some would say redundantly safe, as long as your gun functions 100% carry it and carry it often.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 2:06:45 PM EDT
Like CockedandLocked, I too have carried 1911s and clones for a lot of years. Crowding 40 of 'em in fact. I do carry Mexican most of the time for what I consider very valid reasons, and partly because of that, but more because I just don't trust any safety, I carry hammer down on a live round.

Since they've become available I've always used Titanium firing pins and stiffer firing pin springs to reduce the likely of a dropped gun discharging, but mostly I just don't drop my guns. Always figured a guy deserved to pick some splatter outa his ankles who did that.

Since an issue GI 1911 has to be dropped 8 to 10 feet onto concrete and hit muzzle down to generate enough momentum to fire a primer, and the round's energy is going into the concrete for the most part, I can live with the odds. Yes, there will be some splatter to the sides.

Do I think cocked and locked is unsafe? No. I do think it's not as safe as hammer down on a live round though, and I've always felt there was plenty of time to cock the hammer while presenting the weapon.

My 2 cents, and a good question,

Pat
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 2:12:40 PM EDT
Cocked and locked, condition 1. That is the way John Moses Browning intended it to be carried. Follow safe gun handling procedures. 24 years and no problems or ADs.

Para P-12 in a Kramer paddle holster or an Eagle Attache Case holster.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 2:20:32 PM EDT
What is Mexican Carry?
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 2:36:05 PM EDT
Mexican Carry=Stuck in the waistband, no holster.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 2:58:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pat-Yates:
Do I think cocked and locked is unsafe? No. I do think it's not as safe as hammer down on a live round though, and I've always felt there was plenty of time to cock the hammer while presenting the weapon.Pat



It never ceases to amaze me, people who rely on the 1911 but fail to take full advantage of the benefits of it's design. The fact that the Government Model is single action, and thus has an extremely useable trigger, is probably it's greatest advantage over other weapon systems. I don't propose to dictate how one should carry his own pistol. However, assuming Condition 2 is somehow safer than Condition 1 is a potentially dangerous mistake and a loosing gunfight waiting to happen. On a non-firing pin block equipped 1911, if the gun is dropped onto its hammer only the firing pin spring is present to prevent the gun from discharging. In Condition 1 should the gun fall on its hammer and/or break the nose of the sear the half cock notch would prevent the gun from discharging. Furthermore, no matter how much time you think you will have in a fight it will be less. There won't be time to thumb cock the gun under stress while the other guy is trying to kill you.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 3:20:37 PM EDT
Who says you have to tell the jury it's cocked and locked?

tell the jury you carry it un-cocked and cocked it as you pulled it out...?

But the best thing to do is carry it how you feel comfortable....
That's why I would choose a Glock... no chance of accidental discharge...
1911 is a heck of a lot more accurate though!
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 3:22:56 PM EDT
I carry c&l always.I've also had my gun drop from just over 3ft and it did not have a discharge or go to half-cock position.
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 3:28:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2002 3:29:25 PM EDT by SGB]
If you carry with the hammer down ....

YOU MAY NOT GET TO TELL ANYONE..

Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

I've carred cocked and locked 24 years without incident.

Link Posted: 1/5/2002 3:32:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CockedandLocked:
Ive been carrying a 1911 C&L for 20+ years, the 1911 was designed to be carried safely in the C$L condition. It is the only way I will carry a 1911. Make sure all safety systems are in proper order, get a good holster and carry away



"Yeah, what he said"
If you're not comfortable with cocked & locked, get a revolver !
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 3:52:43 PM EDT
No flame AJohnston, but I think maybe you misunderstand part of Browning's design. The firing pin is inertial---it's too short to reach the primer when being held forward by the hammer. The firing pin spring is there to push the pin aft so it sticks out past the firing pin stop.

Then when the hammer smacks it, it COASTS forward to strike the primer. If the hammer is down on a live round in any 1911 clone, with or without the firing pin block, you can pound the hammer into pieces and not leave a mark on the primer. The hammer has to be withdrawn to allow the pin to move aft, then the pin has to acquire enough momentum from the hammer's impact to move forward against the firing pin spring with enough energy left over after reaching the primer to fire it.

That in fact is the key to the only possible inadvertent firing scenario when carried hammer down on a live round. In this mode, if the weapon is dropped on a hard surface muzzle down, the firing pin, along with the whole pistol of course, has acquired some momentum. When the pistol stops, there's nothing to stop the firing pin (in a gun without a firing pin block) and it will coast forward toward the primer as the rest of the weapon slows in the impact. If the height of drop is high enough, the surface impacted hard enough, and the direction of impact more or less in-line with the firing pin, it can acquire enough energy to fire the round in the chamber.

It takes a pretty fair drop to do it, but it can happen. The lighter the firing pin and the heavier the spring, the higher the velocity required and the greater the height of drop needed to fire the round. Like I said, with GI parts and ammo, it takes a height greater than most of us are tall to do it.

Safeties can wear, are very often butchered by kitchen table 'smiths', and can be brushed off by clothing or an ill-fitting/poorly designed holster. I've even found non-functional safeties on more than one fresh from the factory Colt. Anything mechanical can fail. Newton's laws of motion I trust.

As far as the time required to cock the hammer, try it sometime. Takes a lot less time than the draw and presentation do. Maybe it does require a bit more coordination and practice to handle with blinding speed, but frankly I've also always tried really hard to not get surprised and have never had an urgent need arise when it wasn't already in my hand.

If you're more comfortable with cocked and locked, stay with it by all means, just be sure to verify the function of all the bits and pieces required to keep it safe.

Oh, and one last thing, that half cock notch is a very poor backup when a hammer drops unintentionally. It will very often break off the half cock bosses from the hammer or just shear off the sear nose and continue on down.

Not trying to change your views, just making sure the newbies who also read here understand the mechanics.

Pat
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 4:15:34 PM EDT
I'm a student of Col. Cooper myself - C&L. Condition 1 is the only way I carry, been carrying that way for 7 years now.

Ryan
Link Posted: 1/5/2002 4:37:43 PM EDT
Pat-Yates, no flame taken. Believe me I have a firm understanding of Browning's design. Thus the reason I rely on the gun (half cock notch and all) cocked and locked. Like you, I believe if the operator is comfortable and competent with the way they employ their weapons more power to 'em. You will fight how you train. However I do believe you, and all others who choose to carry a gun in a less than ready condition, are selling yourself short. In a great number of armed conflicts the combatants frequently end up fighting for control of the weapon. Try thumb cocking your pistol while the other guy is trying to pry it from your hands. Sure safeties can fail and parts do wear but in the end it is up to the operator to ensure his gear is in tiptop condition and ready for use. Not trying to change your views but as I'm sure you're aware, per Browning's design, the thumb safety failing due to it's interaction with the sear is far less likely than a ND due to lowering the hammer over a live chamber.
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