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Posted: 7/10/2009 10:33:44 AM EDT
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Wondering what everyone thinks of these single shot rifles? Any problems to know about? I know they are cheap, but whats wrong with that if they are accurate? I would like to find one in 30-30, personally.
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Am going to have a 17" version of this built but have the .308 barreled rechambered for 7.62x54R instead of .307. Am going to get a couple of SPAM cans of 7.62x54R from our friend at Aim Surplus. Follow up on that project and let us know. I am curious how the extractor would be handled? Likewise I am guessing that would bring the 7.62x54R down to 7.62x39 performance much like it did for your .308 Winchester… BTW: Reports of great and accurate are not much use… Anybody count the steps to their target and own a ruler to measure with??? 
Chronograph? |
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Am going to have a 17" version of this built but have the .308 barreled rechambered for 7.62x54R instead of .307. Am going to get a couple of SPAM cans of 7.62x54R from our friend at Aim Surplus. Follow up on that project and let us know. I am curious how the extractor would be handled? Likewise I am guessing that would bring the 7.62x54R down to 7.62x39 performance much like it did for your .308 Winchester… BTW: Reports of great and accurate are not much use… Anybody count the steps to their target and own a ruler to measure with???
Chronograph? Most Mosin Nagant M44 and M38's are a mere 20 inch bbl IIRC. However, a vast majority of the have been counterbored down close to 18 inches. I'm sure an 17 inch bbl with a perm attached muzzle brake will still produce something alot more potent than 7.62x39. |
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Am going to have a 17" version of this built but have the .308 barreled rechambered for 7.62x54R instead of .307. http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/307short.jpg Am going to get a couple of SPAM cans of 7.62x54R from our friend at Aim Surplus.  Ooohhh! That's sweet as anything!!!
May I ask what you'll expect to spend on that project when it's all done? PM me if you'd rather. Thanks!
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Most Mosin Nagant M44 and M38's are a mere 20 inch bbl IIRC. However, a vast majority of the have been counterbored down close to 18 inches. I'm sure an 17 inch bbl with a perm attached muzzle brake will still produce something alot more potent than 7.62x39. The ballistics of the 7.62 X 54R are 2600 fps when fired from a 26 ½” M39 - 148Gr FMJ. You lop off 9 ½” and you will be lucky to make 2150 fps! (using 50 fps loss for each inch of barrel length – most sources use 100 fps loss per inch) I did read a report on a SRB M1A (.308/7.62 NATO) and I ‘believe’ it was cut to 16” or 17” and a comment by the tester was that it performs like a 7.62 X 39. These are FACTs as opposed to wishful thinking. If I am missing something, please let me know. |
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Most Mosin Nagant M44 and M38's are a mere 20 inch bbl IIRC. However, a vast majority of the have been counterbored down close to 18 inches. I'm sure an 17 inch bbl with a perm attached muzzle brake will still produce something alot more potent than 7.62x39. The ballistics of the 7.62 X 54R are 2600 fps when fired from a 26 ½” M39 - 148Gr FMJ. You lop off 9 ½” and you will be lucky to make 2150 fps! (using 50 fps loss for each inch of barrel length – most sources use 100 fps loss per inch) I did read a report on a SRB M1A (.308/7.62 NATO) and I ‘believe’ it was cut to 16” or 17” and a comment by the tester was that it performs like a 7.62 X 39. These are FACTs as opposed to wishful thinking. If I am missing something, please let me know. Then I'll make sure that I chronograph some of the loads and include those when the project is finished. Valid point. Thanks for the input. |
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Am going to have a 17" version of this built but have the .308 barreled rechambered for 7.62x54R instead of .307. http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/307short.jpg Am going to get a couple of SPAM cans of 7.62x54R from our friend at Aim Surplus. I can see you going for 7.62X54 for cheap ammo,but also consider that same gun in 30/30 would be quite useful too. |
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Most Mosin Nagant M44 and M38's are a mere 20 inch bbl IIRC. However, a vast majority of the have been counterbored down close to 18 inches. I'm sure an 17 inch bbl with a perm attached muzzle brake will still produce something alot more potent than 7.62x39. The ballistics of the 7.62 X 54R are 2600 fps when fired from a 26 ½” M39 - 148Gr FMJ. You lop off 9 ½” and you will be lucky to make 2150 fps! (using 50 fps loss for each inch of barrel length – most sources use 100 fps loss per inch) I did read a report on a SRB M1A (.308/7.62 NATO) and I ‘believe’ it was cut to 16” or 17” and a comment by the tester was that it performs like a 7.62 X 39. These are FACTs as opposed to wishful thinking. If I am missing something, please let me know. There is a review of various types of 7.62x54r in various rifles on http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm. It looks like the Czech light ball ran about 2670fps out of their M44. That was just the first one I clicked. Something else to consider is that most 7.62x54r bullets are .310 or .311 diameter. That might not work out so well in a .308 diameter barrel. |
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I got one in 30-06 and like it just fine. I have used it deer hunting for the last 5-6 years and it has never failed me. I have heard the newer models have an extractor as opposed to the ejector that mine has which would make reloading a lot slower, but finding brass much easier. Over all they are good rifles for the price. They are short and easy to maneuver and with the ejector and buttstock shell holder I have I can get off just as many aimed shots as my friends with their bolt actions. Accuracy is acceptable at about 1.5-2 MOA with loads it likes. And by the way, you can get barrels in different calibers, but you have to send them in to the factory for headspacing unlike the Thompson/Center which you can just buy off the shelf. If you need a cheap reliable rifle don't hesitate.
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Most Mosin Nagant M44 and M38's are a mere 20 inch bbl IIRC. However, a vast majority of the have been counterbored down close to 18 inches. I'm sure an 17 inch bbl with a perm attached muzzle brake will still produce something alot more potent than 7.62x39. The ballistics of the 7.62 X 54R are 2600 fps when fired from a 26 ½” M39 - 148Gr FMJ. You lop off 9 ½” and you will be lucky to make 2150 fps! (using 50 fps loss for each inch of barrel length – most sources use 100 fps loss per inch) I did read a report on a SRB M1A (.308/7.62 NATO) and I ‘believe’ it was cut to 16” or 17” and a comment by the tester was that it performs like a 7.62 X 39. These are FACTs as opposed to wishful thinking. If I am missing something, please let me know. Straight out of my Small Arms of the World book, the M44 has a 20.4in bbl. Muzzle velocity out of said bbl is 2514fps. Lop off 4 inches, give you 100fps per inch. that would be 2100fps.....roughly. The M43 cartridge fired from an 16.34 in bbl from an AK47 achieves a velocity of 2330 fps. So, in terms of speed, the 7.62x39 does indeed win. Your numbers are wrong but you were right. I stand corrected. However, I still think it's not a bad idea. The rechambering that is. I would probably end up just having the bbl punched out a little more if possible due to the diameter difference between the US 762 and the Russian 762 and leaving the bbl between 18 and 20 inches. |
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Most Mosin Nagant M44 and M38's are a mere 20 inch bbl IIRC. However, a vast majority of the have been counterbored down close to 18 inches. I'm sure an 17 inch bbl with a perm attached muzzle brake will still produce something alot more potent than 7.62x39. The ballistics of the 7.62 X 54R are 2600 fps when fired from a 26 ½” M39 - 148Gr FMJ. You lop off 9 ½” and you will be lucky to make 2150 fps! (using 50 fps loss for each inch of barrel length – most sources use 100 fps loss per inch) I did read a report on a SRB M1A (.308/7.62 NATO) and I ‘believe’ it was cut to 16” or 17” and a comment by the tester was that it performs like a 7.62 X 39. These are FACTs as opposed to wishful thinking. If I am missing something, please let me know. You seem to be spewing conjecture not fact. Using your "facts" my 20" .308 would be shooting slower than a 7.62x39 out of a 16" barrel since factory velocity testing is done with a 24" barrel. The guy wants to build a cheap gun to shoot cheap ammo. Sounds like a good plan to me. |
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They are great little rifles, and the factory offers a cool accessory barrel program. I have a Survivor .223HB that I had cut to 18" and threaded for a suppressor. Then I sent the lower off to the factory to have it fitted for a .45 Colt/.410 combo. They also did a free trigger job at the time. If you really want to get a lot of information on these guns, go to the Greybeard Forums at:
https://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php Scroll down to the H&R/NEF discussion groups. There's tons of usefull info there on CF, rimfire, bbl lengths, chamberings, and custom mods. |
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You seem to be spewing conjecture not fact. Using your "facts" my 20" .308 would be shooting slower than a 7.62x39 out of a 16" barrel since factory velocity testing is done with a 24" barrel. The guy wants to build a cheap gun to shoot cheap ammo. Sounds like a good plan to me. Oh it is conjecture but based on ‘known facts’… You are basing your disagreement on wishful thinking. It is accepted that a rifle loses (or gains) about 100 fps for every inch of barrel length… So if your test case is 2700 fps from a 24” barrel, it will be 2300 fps from a 20” barrel. An AK has a 16” barrel and the 7.62 X 39 does 2330 fps from that length… So yours is about 2300 from 20” and the AK is 2330 from 16”, why is that so hard to understand? Now there are differences in bullet weight, I was using 150 Gr for the .308 in this case and the AK will probably be using 122 Gr so that is not a 1:1 comparison. And you can probably find some source that says 2750 fps so you can trounce me by 20 fps Likewise the 100 fps is not a rule of physics but rather a rule of thumb!
Look at JoeCoastie’s post. While our numbers are off a little here and there depending on who’s source you are using they still fall within a close enough range to support the ‘conjecture’. And if this isn’t enough to leave a bad taste in your mouth, try this! If you put that 16”/2330 fps 7.62 X 39 AK round into a 20” barrel it will probably only increase to 2400 or 2450 fps??? That case can only hold so much powder and 20” is about its’ optimum length. What would really be fun would be to shoot an unmodified version to establish an accurate base, then cut the barrel length and retest! And yes, I think it is a cool looking little rifle! In fact it is on my list for some projects that I am considering. FYI: My sources were Sierra, Hornady, Cartridges of the World, Rifles of the World and Wikipedia. In all cases I try to cross-reference info so that I am not painting a picture to come out to support my ‘conjecture’. |
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Here is my $0.02,
I recently bought one of the new H&R Ultra Hunters in .243win. Thus far it has been a less then pleasant experience. Fit and finish is mediocre. The foreend on mine had the mounting hole drilled 1/16" off center. While it functions fine the foreend shim sticks way out on one side and is recessed on the other. As other's have said you can get other barrels for them but you have to send it to the factory to be hand fit. Also, if you have had any trigger work done they will restore the factory trigger. I'm not sure why. Also, the days of doing free trigger jobs at the factory are over - they now charge $100 or so as the new trigger design requires different parts. Speaking of the factory trigger, it is trash. The older HEF and H&R Handi rifles had okay triggers. The new ones, which are supposedly set to 7.5 pounds, are more like 10+ in many cases. Before I had mine adjusted it would bruise my trigger finger if I had a long range day with it. Accuracy definately suffered and this was inexcusable on a "varmiting" rifle. The new trigger design, which has a small firing pin which comes in at a 45 degree angle, is nearly impossible to find a local smith to work on. Again - you're stuck with the factory. I'm sure when I finally get this thing up and running I'll like it. |
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You seem to be spewing conjecture not fact. Using your "facts" my 20" .308 would be shooting slower than a 7.62x39 out of a 16" barrel since factory velocity testing is done with a 24" barrel. The guy wants to build a cheap gun to shoot cheap ammo. Sounds like a good plan to me. Oh it is conjecture but based on ‘known facts’… You are basing your disagreement on wishful thinking. It is accepted that a rifle loses (or gains) about 100 fps for every inch of barrel length… So if your test case is 2700 fps from a 24” barrel, it will be 2300 fps from a 20” barrel. An AK has a 16” barrel and the 7.62 X 39 does 2330 fps from that length… So yours is about 2300 from 20” and the AK is 2330 from 16”, why is that so hard to understand? Now there are differences in bullet weight, I was using 150 Gr for the .308 in this case and the AK will probably be using 122 Gr so that is not a 1:1 comparison. And you can probably find some source that says 2750 fps so you can trounce me by 20 fps Likewise the 100 fps is not a rule of physics but rather a rule of thumb!
Look at JoeCoastie’s post. While our numbers are off a little here and there depending on who’s source you are using they still fall within a close enough range to support the ‘conjecture’. And if this isn’t enough to leave a bad taste in your mouth, try this! If you put that 16”/2330 fps 7.62 X 39 AK round into a 20” barrel it will probably only increase to 2400 or 2450 fps??? That case can only hold so much powder and 20” is about its’ optimum length. What would really be fun would be to shoot an unmodified version to establish an accurate base, then cut the barrel length and retest! And yes, I think it is a cool looking little rifle! In fact it is on my list for some projects that I am considering. FYI: My sources were Sierra, Hornady, Cartridges of the World, Rifles of the World and Wikipedia. In all cases I try to cross-reference info so that I am not painting a picture to come out to support my ‘conjecture’. I'll put my $1800 or so worth of 20" .308 up against your conjecture and if it is shooting anywhere +/- 100 fps of your theoretical 2300 fps with a box of Hornady AMAX 168gr match I will give it to you, but you gotta put us something of equal value. Are you willing to take that bet? How about doing more research.... http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/ http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/ |
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I'll put my $1800 or so worth of 20" .308 up against your conjecture and if it is shooting anywhere +/- 100 fps of your theoretical 2300 fps with a box of Hornady AMAX 168gr match I will give it to you, but you gotta put us something of equal value. Are you willing to take that bet? How about doing more research.... http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/ http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/ Calm down… You don’t have a chronograph so in the end you have absolutely no idea what is going on. We were having a discussion here, and you show up with one article from one source with a completely different loading – well that is what I was talking about when I referred to ’painting a picture’. Believe whatever you want, 
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I'll put my $1800 or so worth of 20" .308 up against your conjecture and if it is shooting anywhere +/- 100 fps of your theoretical 2300 fps with a box of Hornady AMAX 168gr match I will give it to you, but you gotta put us something of equal value. Are you willing to take that bet? How about doing more research.... http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/ http://www.sniperschool.com/sniper-rifle-barrel-length/ Calm down… You don’t have a chronograph so in the end you have absolutely no idea what is going on. We were having a discussion here, and you show up with one article from one source with a completely different loading – well that is what I was talking about when I referred to ’painting a picture’. Believe whatever you want,
Nice backpedal there. I figured that you would wuss out and change the subject. You're right, I don't have a chrony, but I know what is going on much better than you. And I am calm. I just see a bunch of BS being posted and I called it. You told me that my 20" sps in .308 will shoot 2300 fps. Back it up. Put your $ where your mouth is. You even state that a 7.62x39 out of a 16" barrel would have a higher velocity than a .308 out of a 20". Maybe the "parrot" moniker is correct since you parrot bullcrap. And I was going to buy a chrony if you accepted, since I'd be getting an influx of dough when you lost. 
How about some more research.... http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=5&t=282431 Here we go, if you want to get specific about the 7.62x54r....look at the velocity difference between the m91's and m44's. Keep in mind there is an 11" difference in barrel length. http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo001.htm There is about 130 FPS between the 20" m44 and 27" M28. Hurry up and take the bet so I can get a new Chrony and some new gear. I already got an email into Hornady inquiring about their test barrel lengths so you could not weasel out with that argument. With the funds I am going to win off of you I was thinking I'd get a 24" barreled .308 for a better comparison. |
| well i've found one in .243 win, which is a round i like. The guy wants 275 for it ( i figure its an ok price considering it comes scoped), with a 3x9-40 bushnell on it. Its a really nice looking gun(has a laminate stock and forearm), i just hope it is one of the good ones. |
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well i've found one in .243 win, which is a round i like. The guy wants 275 for it ( i figure its an ok price considering it comes scoped), with a 3x9-40 bushnell on it. Its a really nice looking gun(has a laminate stock and forearm), i just hope it is one of the good ones. That sounds like a great deal. Just ask to try out the trigger and make sure the forend is acceptably straight before you buy. |
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I bought my first HandiRifle today. Seems like a lot of bang for the buck. Mine is .500 S&W magnum, wood stock and fiber optic sights. (I considered the .45-70, but the .500 had the fiber optic sights).
This is the first time I ever fired a .500. Hard to believe that people shoot this round in handguns. It thumps really good! Should be a good rifle to handload for. If a Tyrannosaurus Rex shows up in my neighborhood, I will be prepared. |
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Most Mosin Nagant M44 and M38's are a mere 20 inch bbl IIRC. However, a vast majority of the have been counterbored down close to 18 inches. I'm sure an 17 inch bbl with a perm attached muzzle brake will still produce something alot more potent than 7.62x39. The ballistics of the 7.62 X 54R are 2600 fps when fired from a 26 ½” M39 - 148Gr FMJ. You lop off 9 ½” and you will be lucky to make 2150 fps! (using 50 fps loss for each inch of barrel length – most sources use 100 fps loss per inch) I did read a report on a SRB M1A (.308/7.62 NATO) and I ‘believe’ it was cut to 16” or 17” and a comment by the tester was that it performs like a 7.62 X 39. These are FACTs as opposed to wishful thinking. If I am missing something, please let me know. There is a review of various types of 7.62x54r in various rifles on http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmo.htm. It looks like the Czech light ball ran about 2670fps out of their M44. That was just the first one I clicked. Something else to consider is that most 7.62x54r bullets are .310 or .311 diameter. That might not work out so well in a .308 diameter barrel. A quick glance at 7.62x54R.net's Steel Core Light Ball data shows: - The slowest M44 load, Albanian 1986, did 2603fps from a M44 and 2767 from a M91/30, a difference of 164fps - The fastest M44 load, Hungarian 1987, did 2701fps from a M44 and 2818 from a M91/30, a difference of 117fps - When not counter bored M91/30s have 28.75" barrels and the M44 has 20.25" barrels, this is a difference of 8.5". The average difference between the two loads above is 16.5fps per inch - I would expect about 2550fps average from a 17" barrel and surplus light ball 7.62x54R, +/-50fps |
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Getting back to the NEF portion of the thread I have two NEF rifles A 17HMR Sportster with big honkin' Trashco scope. A very accurate sub $200 varmint gun.  H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic in 45/70. 32" barrel. Very old school scope. This gun is a steal if you can find one. It's arguably my favorite rifle. It's accurate and makes big f**king holes.  I return you to your regularly scheduled pissing contest thread ZM |
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i bought a superlight youth .223 for my boy a year ago. the ejector never worked correctly and i sent it back for repair and had a .357 and a .44 mag barrel mated to the action while it was there.
he has shot the .223 and the .357 religiously since it has returned and i am really impressed for a 8 y/o boys, it does the job and does it well. i had a red head red dot on the .357 until recently and it just now moved a Bushnell 1.5 x 4 firefly 3200 unto it. i will probably try to find a decent 2x7 for the .223 barrel. |
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