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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Masada or SCAR (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/30/2009 2:05:44 PM EDT
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When are both of these fine animals supposed to land in the civilian market?
Whats better? Which one is going to blow out first? |
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I saw a SCAR at a gun show this past weekend. Price: $7500. No thanks.  Some of us have spent that on a single AR after expenses. What could you possibly need that would cost that much? Unless youre including ammo and say night vision and IR then thats rediculous and you got ripped. 
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IF the ACR is all that's it cracked up to be, I'd lean that way depending on price. I like the SCAR (got to see a military one a month ago), and if the price was reasonable ($2000-ish), I would consider it. TBH, right now, I'm inclined to get an LMT MRP Piston upper, save some bucks and have some parts compatibility. I'm not sure a piston is "all that," but I do want to give one a try.
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SCAR is not widely available and as a consequence priced above what the average consumer will pay or can pay. Fail.
The Bushmaster ACR we don't even know when or if it will come out and we don't know the MSRP yet or how widely available it will be when it comes out. Fail. Look, I've been a big fan of both these rifles and when they are available and at least selling at their MSRP I'll be in line with everyone else for them, BUT right now I'm not making any plans or stashing away dollars for them. Too many other rifles, accessories, spare parts, and of course ammunition to purchase right now before the next crazy shooting mixes with political climate to bring us an AWB. |
| I read at Defense Tech that back in Nov '08, SOCOM halted the purchase of the SCAR because of the problems of the stock braking off. The asked FNH to fix that three times and the haven't yet. Granted I haven't read that it was taken care of yet, because some SEALs in Cali. have been seen using them. |
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XCR for the win. Lower cost....does everything the SCAR/ACR are supposed to, spare parts are available, different calibers, big AK style bolt. But, out of the two you have listed: ACR.....if it's ever released. Sean Except the cheek rest!!!!! 
I'd go for XCR. |
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XCR for the win. Lower cost....does everything the SCAR/ACR are supposed to, spare parts are available, different calibers, big AK style bolt. But, out of the two you have listed: ACR.....if it's ever released. Sean Except the cheek rest!!!!!
I'd go for XCR. Not an issue if you get the correct sights....Genuine HK diopters and a RAS II type mount or an HK 416 LaRue mount for a T-1 for example. I'm running the HK/T-1combo on my first XCR which I plan to SBR. My 2nd XCR is running a Leupold VX-3 1.5-5X20 in a GG&G accucam QD mount with Troy BUIS. I built a custom riser for that one to get the right cheek weld height.....I know this isn't an option for everyone, but it was pretty simple to make. Worst case scenario....in about 6 months, Robinson Armament will have their new stock out that should correct the issue entirely. Sean |
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XCR for the win. Lower cost....does everything the SCAR/ACR are supposed to, spare parts are available, different calibers, big AK style bolt. But, out of the two you have listed: ACR.....if it's ever released. Sean Except the cheek rest!!!!!
I'd go for XCR. Not an issue if you get the correct sights....Genuine HK diopters and a RAS II type mount or an HK 416 LaRue mount for a T-1 for example. I'm running the HK/T-1combo on my first XCR which I plan to SBR. My 2nd XCR is running a Leupold VX-3 1.5-5X20 in a GG&G accucam QD mount with Troy BUIS. I built a custom riser for that one to get the right cheek weld height.....I know this isn't an option for everyone, but it was pretty simple to make. Worst case scenario....in about 6 months, Robinson Armament will have their new stock out that should correct the issue entirely. Sean A lot of people are asleep at the wheel when it comes to the XCR. Such a cool gun. And dont forget to put your order in for the new match today 
And if the Masada and SCAR were both out right now, and the SCAR pricing wasnt completely ignorant, I'd most likely choose the Masada 
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Easy choice....SCAR without a doubt.
The ACR is vaporware, and probably will continue to be so in the future. Furthermore, without any sort of testing by anybody how anyone could choose it at present is beyond me. Based on what I've seen the XCR has to many weak points for me to consider it as anything more than a range toy....none of them are based on 'looks'.
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I vote neither.
If one could be obtained for say, $1750 then maybe you could justify it's cost over a good AR. But $7500??? I have seen and handled one in person, I am sad to say I was not impressed. If I were pressed to purchase a non-AR, I'd grab an XCR or Sig 556 Classic, in that order. I will admit I'm not a spec ops commando like many here, my cheezy little Sabre with BCM upper does just fine for me..... |
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Not to go way off topic, but what do we know about the XCR's "new stock?" Just speculation and hints from those who have seen it. From what I have heard it's sorta like a UBR, but will lock when folded and have adjustable cheek piece Hmm, sounds cool. Our spies here need to get ontop of that and get us some pics. 
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Neither. The SCAR's price tag is considered rape in 15 states and the ACR is probably never going to be released.
The SCAR is available though. The XM8, err, I mean ACR isn't and won't be anytime soon. I still wish Robinson would make an XCR with a longer rail that had T-marks instead of those stupid ass horizontal homo cuts. I think it's probably the most practical new "wonder rifle" going seeing as it actually exists, it actually works, and Robinson isn't trying to yield an 800% profit from it. I used to be big into the wonder rifles. All they are is a huge fucking let down though. |
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Easy choice....SCAR without a doubt. The ACR is vaporware, and probably will continue to be so in the future. Furthermore, without any sort of testing by anybody how anyone could choose it at present is beyond me. Based on what I've seen the XCR has to many weak points for me to consider it as anything more than a range toy....none of them are based on 'looks'. Care to elaborate on these "many weak points"? Sean |
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Easy choice....SCAR without a doubt. The ACR is vaporware, and probably will continue to be so in the future. Furthermore, without any sort of testing by anybody how anyone could choose it at present is beyond me. Based on what I've seen the XCR has to many weak points for me to consider it as anything more than a range toy....none of them are based on 'looks'. You're a SCAR fan boy which makes you wrong about a lot of things. For one, if the ACR is vapor, than explain this pic of a refined, Remington version that appeared recently. That's right, I said Remington. 
And two, as for the XCR weak points, tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. The uber weapon that cant even take abuse from the UPS man 
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Easy choice....SCAR without a doubt. The ACR is vaporware, and probably will continue to be so in the future. Furthermore, without any sort of testing by anybody how anyone could choose it at present is beyond me. Based on what I've seen the XCR has to many weak points for me to consider it as anything more than a range toy....none of them are based on 'looks'. You're a SCAR fan boy which makes you wrong about a lot of things. For one, if the ACR is vapor, than explain this pic of a refined, Remington version that appeared recently. That's right, I said Remington. http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4264/p7d8811.jpg And two, as for the XCR weak points, tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. The uber weapon that cant even take abuse from the UPS man Magpul developed prototypes and a "final" model that they thought was ideal then sold it to Bushmaster. "The ACR is being redesigned to be a superior offering to compete for the next generation US Army infantry carbine and subcompact weapon requirement and will be available to select customers in 2009." Hmmm... if the ACR was so great after over 2 years of testing an prototyping what does it need to be "redesigned"? There is a difference between redesigning and altering a firearm for production. Bushmaster is a bit smaller than Remington but are part of the same house, Bushmaster had trouble with the "redesigned" ACR. It's ether a design problem or a manufacturing problem. So they turned it over to Remington. This is of course all speculation, but I don't see the Masada/ACR getting passed from manufacturer to manufacturer as a good thing. |
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Easy choice....SCAR without a doubt. The ACR is vaporware, and probably will continue to be so in the future. Furthermore, without any sort of testing by anybody how anyone could choose it at present is beyond me. Based on what I've seen the XCR has to many weak points for me to consider it as anything more than a range toy....none of them are based on 'looks'. You're a SCAR fan boy which makes you wrong about a lot of things. For one, if the ACR is vapor, than explain this pic of a refined, Remington version that appeared recently. That's right, I said Remington. http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4264/p7d8811.jpg And two, as for the XCR weak points, tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. The uber weapon that cant even take abuse from the UPS man Magpul developed prototypes and a "final" model that they thought was ideal then sold it to Bushmaster. "The ACR is being redesigned to be a superior offering to compete for the next generation US Army infantry carbine and subcompact weapon requirement and will be available to select customers in 2009." Hmmm... if the ACR was so great after over 2 years of testing an prototyping what does it need to be "redesigned"? There is a difference between redesigning and altering a firearm for production. Bushmaster is a bit smaller than Remington but are part of the same house, Bushmaster had trouble with the "redesigned" ACR. It's ether a design problem or a manufacturing problem. So they turned it over to Remington. This is of course all speculation, but I don't see the Masada/ACR getting passed from manufacturer to manufacturer as a good thing. Nope. It's being passed down the line progressively from more commercial to more defense contractor capable companies. Starry eyed over the big prize I guess. I would say the next step was it being sold to General Dynamics, but they already own the XM8. Maybe Lockheed or Boeing will buy it next. |
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Easy choice....SCAR without a doubt. The ACR is vaporware, and probably will continue to be so in the future. Furthermore, without any sort of testing by anybody how anyone could choose it at present is beyond me. Based on what I've seen the XCR has to many weak points for me to consider it as anything more than a range toy....none of them are based on 'looks'. You're a SCAR fan boy which makes you wrong about a lot of things. For one, if the ACR is vapor, than explain this pic of a refined, Remington version that appeared recently. That's right, I said Remington. http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/4264/p7d8811.jpg And two, as for the XCR weak points, tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. The uber weapon that cant even take abuse from the UPS man Magpul developed prototypes and a "final" model that they thought was ideal then sold it to Bushmaster. "The ACR is being redesigned to be a superior offering to compete for the next generation US Army infantry carbine and subcompact weapon requirement and will be available to select customers in 2009." Hmmm... if the ACR was so great after over 2 years of testing an prototyping what does it need to be "redesigned"? There is a difference between redesigning and altering a firearm for production. Bushmaster is a bit smaller than Remington but are part of the same house, Bushmaster had trouble with the "redesigned" ACR. It's ether a design problem or a manufacturing problem. So they turned it over to Remington. This is of course all speculation, but I don't see the Masada/ACR getting passed from manufacturer to manufacturer as a good thing. Nope. It's being passed down the line progressively from more commercial to more defense contractor capable companies. Starry eyed over the big prize I guess. I would say the next step was it being sold to General Dynamics, but they already own the XM8. Maybe Lockheed or Boeing will buy it next. I revert to my closing statement above. "I don't see the Masada/ACR getting passed from manufacturer to manufacturer as a good thing." |
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Quoted: I read at Defense Tech that back in Nov '08, SOCOM halted the purchase of the SCAR because of the problems of the stock braking off. The asked FNH to fix that three times and the haven't yet. Granted I haven't read that it was taken care of yet, because some SEALs in Cali. have been seen using them. Probably from soldiers smashing it against the ground intentionally to break it off because it is so god dam ugly. |
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Easy choice....SCAR without a doubt. The ACR is vaporware, and probably will continue to be so in the future. Furthermore, without any sort of testing by anybody how anyone could choose it at present is beyond me. Based on what I've seen the XCR has to many weak points for me to consider it as anything more than a range toy....none of them are based on 'looks'. You're a SCAR fan boy which makes you wrong about a lot of things. For one, if the ACR is vapor, than explain this pic of a refined, Remington version that appeared recently. That's right, I said Remington. And two, as for the XCR weak points, tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. The uber weapon that cant even take abuse from the UPS man Fanboy.....  That is sooo funny coming from a obvious XCR 'fanboy' like yourself. Let me define 'fanboy' for you, someone who feels the need to tell the world that their 'flavor-of-the-day' is better than anybody elses in a thread that doesn't even apply to their 'flavor'. The title of the thread was "Masada or SCAR". Why did you even feel the need to mention the XCR in this thread unless you are just a silly 'fanboy'? Notice I don't feel the need to comment on other forums devoted to the XCR and tell the world that the SCAR is better than the XCR.
However since the XCR was mentioned, and you asked, we'll continue. One of the biggest weak points to the XCR is that little ittybitty hex screw that attaches the barrel to the receiver via a 'dimple' in the barrel. At the very least RA should have used more than one in conjunction with a more secure attachment on the barrel itself. The second weak point is the design of the bolt hold-open pin. The third is the use of a screw instead of a pin for the bolt release. The last is the way the ejector is attached to the receiver. Again, it is screwed on. Notice none of them involve the 'looks' of the rifle , something XCR 'fanboys' seem to be hung up on in regards to the SCAR. It wasn't designed to look 'purty'. Does this make the XCR a bad platform? In a word, no. However it does have it weak points. These weak points, and the way the SCAR improves upon them, is what makes the SCAR superior in my IMO. If you have valid points that make the XCR better, I'd love to hear them. As for the stock breaking during shipment, I call.... 
Do you care to provide a picture of the broken stock? How about a picture of how it was improperly shipped? It's possible a defective stock was shipped, however I doubt very seriously it was broken during shipment. But I guess if that's the only criticism of the SCAR platform that fanboys like yourself can think of, then so be it. Where can I buy the ACR? I don't see it on Remington's website. By the way, the picture you swiped from another site is of the military version that Remington is experimenting with. It isn't the civvy version that Bushmaster is supposedly working on. The main point is that the ACR isn't currently available, anywhere, at any price. That makes it 'vaporwear'. No amount of wishful thinking can make it appear, sorry 
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Just feel like we don't have the full story on the ACR really.
Also don't feel like we can take a lot of what Magpul tells us to the bank anymore regarding it either as the full truth. Maybe I'm wrong...hope I am, but I'm not rushing out with money in hand the second the ACR hits the street I'm going to sit back and wait about three to six months into it's release (if it ever is released) to see how things go. We all sort of rushed in on the ACR, because we liked the features and have been happy with Magpul in the past, but I think folks will view it at least slightly more conservatively when and if it actually comes out. I see the whole thing as a major PR mess for Magpul and Bushmaster frankly. When I was trying to tell folks here that the SCAR was at least a "known commodity" and the ACR wasn't I was bashed pretty hard, because frankly the Magpul groupies were in full effect. Looks, videos from Shot and all that are great, but nobody here has any idea how well the ACR functions really (and no shooting it at a range for a few hundreds round doesn't really give ya a full picture). At least with the SCAR you can say "yeah SOCOM says the thing goes "bang" so it must at least work well." All I can say about the ACR is that it looks cool and looks like it will work on paper. |
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I read at Defense Tech that back in Nov '08, SOCOM halted the purchase of the SCAR because of the problems of the stock braking off. The asked FNH to fix that three times and the haven't yet. Granted I haven't read that it was taken care of yet, because some SEALs in Cali. have been seen using them. Probably from soldiers smashing it against the ground intentionally to break it off because it is so god dam ugly. They went through multiple redesigns and yes SEALs and the 75th RR have them for certain so somebody there liked them enough. Who gives a damn about "looks" we're not matching these things to handbags. Form follows function folks. |
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One of the biggest weak points to the XCR is that little ittybitty hex screw that attaches the barrel to the receiver via a 'dimple' in the barrel. At the very least RA should have used more than one in conjunction with a more secure attachment on the barrel itself. The second weak point is the design of the bolt hold-open pin. The third is the use of a screw instead of a pin for the bolt release. The last is the way the ejector is attached to the receiver. Again, it is screwed on. Notice none of them involve the 'looks' of the rifle , something XCR 'fanboys' seem to be hung up on in regards to the SCAR. It wasn't designed to look 'purty'. Does this make the XCR a bad platform? In a word, no. However it does have it weak points. These weak points, and the way the SCAR improves upon them, is what makes the SCAR superior in my IMO. If you have valid points that make the XCR better, I'd love to hear them. What is the triangular cut out in the XCR bbl for? How many people have broken the bolt hold open pin? (To be fair, I have seen a picture of one that was chewed up a little....still functioned, but chewed up a bit). How many screws have fallen out of the bolt release? I know screws were coming loose and falling out on the ejector....but that problem has since been corrected. Just curious, as I've bought the hype of the XCR and bought two of them recently. I have LWRCs, POF, Bushmaster, Colts.....the XCR, IMO, surpasses them all in terms of durability. My only complaint (and one that is inherent to the system) is that it's noticeably nose heavy compared to an AR....but not enough that it wouldn't be my go-to rifle. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. I don't mind if I bought what some will undoubtedly call a piece of junk.....just want to determine how likely I am to have problems. Sean |
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One of the biggest weak points to the XCR is that little ittybitty hex screw that attaches the barrel to the receiver via a 'dimple' in the barrel. At the very least RA should have used more than one in conjunction with a more secure attachment on the barrel itself. The second weak point is the design of the bolt hold-open pin. The third is the use of a screw instead of a pin for the bolt release. The last is the way the ejector is attached to the receiver. Again, it is screwed on. Notice none of them involve the 'looks' of the rifle , something XCR 'fanboys' seem to be hung up on in regards to the SCAR. It wasn't designed to look 'purty'. Does this make the XCR a bad platform? In a word, no. However it does have it weak points. These weak points, and the way the SCAR improves upon them, is what makes the SCAR superior in my IMO. If you have valid points that make the XCR better, I'd love to hear them. What is the triangular cut out in the XCR bbl for? How many people have broken the bolt hold open pin? (To be fair, I have seen a picture of one that was chewed up a little....still functioned, but chewed up a bit). How many screws have fallen out of the bolt release? I know screws were coming loose and falling out on the ejector....but that problem has since been corrected. Just curious, as I've bought the hype of the XCR and bought two of them recently. I have LWRCs, POF, Bushmaster, Colts.....the XCR, IMO, surpasses them all in terms of durability. My only complaint (and one that is inherent to the system) is that it's noticeably nose heavy compared to an AR....but not enough that it wouldn't be my go-to rifle. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. I don't mind if I bought what some will undoubtedly call a piece of junk.....just want to determine how likely I am to have problems. Sean I just went through the XCRforum problem section. Broken BHO's: 0 Bolts falling out of BHO: 0 Broken bolts: LOL yeah right, 0 |
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My guess is Cerebrus transfered the ACR project over to Remington (Bushmaster and Remington are both part of a much larger company) to give the the project a bit more gravitas as they submit it for the Armys next gen rifle.
I still don't think it'll get adopted though (at this time). The military is looking to cut projects, not take on new ones and the M-4 is well liked and has 40 years of inertia behind it. That's not to say the ACR isn't a potentially better rifle, but any new weapon has it's kinks to be worked out and that takes time and money. |
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[span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By aimpointed
...tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. Cause nobody wants to buy a butt ugly no name rifle most people haven't even heard of. |
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[span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By aimpointed
...tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. Cause nobody wants to buy a butt ugly no name rifle most people haven't even heard of. 
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[span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By aimpointed
...tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. Cause nobody wants to buy a butt ugly no name rifle most people haven't even heard of. While I agree that the XCR may not look as "purdy" as some other rifles out there.....it's odd how much stock you seem to place in "brand name" stuff. EVERY company starts out somewhere. The merits of the product eventually build the name to where it's instantly recognizeable. What's funny about the XCR is that the vast majority of owners recognize it as superior to their ARs. It's popularity will only grow unless there's some sort of permanent ban. If brand names are so important as well as having everyone know what my purchase decision is, perhaps I'd be better off on a ladies' handbag forum. 
Sean |
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[span style='font-weight: bold;']Originally Posted By aimpointed
...tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. Cause nobody wants to buy a butt ugly no name rifle most people haven't even heard of. While I agree that the XCR may not look as "purdy" as some other rifles out there.....it's odd how much stock you seem to place in "brand name" stuff. EVERY company starts out somewhere. The merits of the product eventually build the name to where it's instantly recognizeable. What's funny about the XCR is that the vast majority of owners recognize it as superior to their ARs. It's popularity will only grow unless there's some sort of permanent ban. If brand names are so important as well as having everyone know what my purchase decision is, perhaps I'd be better off on a ladies' handbag forum.
Sean Then why does XCR owners feel the need to inject 'mine is better' attitude every time the SCAR is mentioned? This is a 'Massada or SCAR' thread, not a 'Massada or SCAR or XCR' thread. Nowhere did the OP mention the XCR. Just asking...
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Originally Posted By aimpointed
...tell me why no one has ever complained about an XCR breaking in the box while shipping...you know, like the SCAR. Cause nobody wants to buy a butt ugly no name rifle most people haven't even heard of. While I agree that the XCR may not look as "purdy" as some other rifles out there.....it's odd how much stock you seem to place in "brand name" stuff. EVERY company starts out somewhere. The merits of the product eventually build the name to where it's instantly recognizeable. What's funny about the XCR is that the vast majority of owners recognize it as superior to their ARs. It's popularity will only grow unless there's some sort of permanent ban. [span style='color: red;']If brand names are so important as well as having everyone know what my purchase decision is, perhaps I'd be better off on a ladies' handbag forum.
Sean Then why does XCR owners feel the need to inject 'mine is better' attitude every time the SCAR is mentioned? This is a 'Massada or SCAR' thread, not a 'Massada or SCAR or XCR' thread. Nowhere did the OP mention the XCR. Just asking... Please don't understand me....I'm not saying, nor did I mean to imply that the XCR was better than the SCAR or ACR. I like the bolt design better from what I can tell, but otherwise, I see them as very evenly matched. The part you highlighted in red was a joke (hence the smilie).
No harm intended. Sean |
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the ACR wasn't "turned over" to remington. remington is slated to build the military and police versions since they already have a division that builds military and police versions of commercially available firearms, and bushmaster will be building the commercial version. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Masada or SCAR (Page 1 of 2)
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