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Posted: 3/8/2009 1:04:44 PM EDT
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I have seen / heard about one or two of these that are made, but why are there not more. Why are they not popular enough to be more common. Magazines are a much quicker and efficient way of loading a weapon. I think that a shotgun with a detachable magazine would be very interesting. MAX |
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Quoted from the site: These are the best shotguns for home protection!!!
(19" threaded bbl especially!!!) Imagine the sound that AK makes when you chamber a round in the dark!!! Whoever entered your home with a wrong intent will know to start running!!! |
| I have a Mossberg 20 ga bolt action with the mag. Got it about 1953 or 52. My first shotgun. Looks brand new as back in those days, I think I cleaned it at least once a week whether I used it or not. Stock is also like new. It has three screw on chokes depending on the spread you want. |
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The Saiga has more than a few domestic suppliers for magazines AND parts.
Read the above again & again until it hits you just how important that is. After 922R (Cheap & easy) upgrades, you can order and have delivered all the relaible well made mags your heart desires. And the Surefire 12's hold 13 rounds. Count that 13 rounds of 12 gaga! 
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The Daewoo USAS-12 looks promising as well. Is that available? The USAS is freakin' awesome. It was pretty neat but then it was reclassified as a DD along with the Street Sweeper and Striker 12 which pretty much quashed any hope it had of widespread civilian sales in the US. I once saw a USAS in Bangkok, Thailand. A guard for a large jewelry shop had one slung and it was almost as big as he was. |
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The Daewoo USAS-12 looks promising as well. Is that available? The USAS is freakin' awesome. They are out there, but they are pricey. Also, I believe that they are all NFA Destructive Devices. Not 100% sure on that last part, though. Damn, I'm slow. 
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Yes, I think you guys are right. They are NFA DDs, but it might be worth filing out the paperwork if you could find one. They look like they'd be a lot of fun!  So you would really spend 3k on an NFA toy with few parts versus a regular semi thats $600 with parts, mags & suppliers falling out of the sky?
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Quoted: Quoted: So you would really spend 3k on an NFA toy with few parts versus a regular semi that's $600 with parts, mags & suppliers falling out of the sky?Yes, I think you guys are right. They are NFA DDs, but it might be worth filing out the paperwork if you could find one. They look like they'd be a lot of fun! MIGHT BE WORTH as in for our AR15 brothers who are rolling in the $$$.  I hope to be able to call myself a member of this category one day. For now now I have my Remington 1100 and am now thinking of getting a Saiga. MAX |
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The Daewoo USAS-12 looks promising as well. Thanks to BJ, that one is NFA The Saiga is not NFA, and has all of the features of the USAS (drum mags, high cap box mags, etc).... Negative. You might want to read the ATF ruling concerning the USAS and Streetsweeper. |
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Why do they consider it a DD, but not the saiga? Because the Saiga wasn't 'big' until after BJ Billy left office... The 'DD-ification' was an EO directing said reclassification... Pres Bush wasn't big into antigun EOs... All 12 gauges start out as DD's unless they are issued a sporting exemption from the BATF (bore over .50"). Striker/Streetsweeper were classified as unsporting by the BATF and prohibited from import. Someone decided to bring the tooling into the USA and produce them domestically to skirt the import ban. BATF found out and put a stop to the sales, but only after hundreds had already been purchased. Rather than force the owners to surrender the illegal weapons, BATF allowed them to be retroactively registered as legal DD's. Saiga-12 got its sporting exemption when the BATF allowed its import. |
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Quoted: Quoted: All 12 gauges start out as DD's unless they are issued a sporting exemption from the BATF (bore over .50"). Striker/Streetsweeper were classified as unsporting by the BATF and prohibited from import. Someone decided to bring the tooling into the USA and produce them domestically to skirt the import ban. BATF found out and put a stop to the sales, but only after hundreds had already been purchased. Rather than force the owners to surrender the illegal weapons, BATF allowed them to be retroactively registered as legal DD's.Quoted: Because the Saiga wasn't 'big' until after BJ Billy left office...Why do they consider it a DD, but not the saiga? The 'DD-ification' was an EO directing said reclassification... Pres Bush wasn't big into antigun EOs... Saiga-12 got its sporting exemption when the BATF allowed its import. Is this true. I can't see the reason why all shotguns would be classified as NFA. |
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Seems like someone would design and offer a box magazine conversion for a 870 or a 500. someone did, for both. IIRC, it was the Knoxx Sidewinder. It was an easy install for the mossberg 500, but I didnt know they made one for the remington. You would have to unsolder the original magazine tube and resolder the new one. |
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All 12 gauges start out as DD's unless they are issued a sporting exemption from the BATF (bore over .50"). Striker/Streetsweeper were classified as unsporting by the BATF and prohibited from import. Someone decided to bring the tooling into the USA and produce them domestically to skirt the import ban. BATF found out and put a stop to the sales, but only after hundreds had already been purchased. Rather than force the owners to surrender the illegal weapons, BATF allowed them to be retroactively registered as legal DD's.
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Because the Saiga wasn't 'big' until after BJ Billy left office...
Why do they consider it a DD, but not the saiga? The 'DD-ification' was an EO directing said reclassification... Pres Bush wasn't big into antigun EOs... Saiga-12 got its sporting exemption when the BATF allowed its import. Is this true. I can't see the reason why all shotguns would be classified as NFA. Perhaps its the > 1/2" thing. |
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The main barrier is indeed the legislation around shotguns and destructive devices. Like other NFA rules, this distinction does not really make any sense, but it is what it is and so we have to live within its constraints. As the US is one of the biggest markets for firearms, it does not make much business sense to make a gun that overtly fails the ATF "sporting" test.
Another barrier is that standard shotgun shells are not optimal for stacking in, and feeding from, a box magazine. Yes, they can be made to work, but IMHO a box magazine is fundamentally less reliable than a tube magazine with traditional shotshells. I own both types, and I enjoy shooting my Saiga12 (which runs very reliably), but in a gun fight I would grab a tube gun every time. The advantage of the box magazine - fast and easy reloads - is really only of benefit in combat or 3-gun competition. These markets are very small when compared with the sporting gun market (I'd guess >90% of shotguns are bought for clay shooting or hunting, and <10% for combat applications), and a box magazine is not a huge advantage for sporting applications... indeed, this market is notoriously conservative, preferring double-barrels, walnut stocks and pretty engraving. Even for a fighting shotgun, one could make a case that a shotgun needs to be flexible with ammo loadout; it is MUCH easier to instantly switch from buckshot to slug with a tube gun than with a box magazine gun (select slug drill). |
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Norinco makes a police shotgun with a detach mag called the Hawk Type 97-1. These are actually carried by Chinese police. Not sure if they are imported here. It also comes in a bullpup version. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/hawk_pump_std.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/hawk_pump_bullpup.jpg They are imported by Dominion Arms, but not the bullpup one. The bullpup one has a built in flashlight on the pump and is, in my opinion, the ideal home defense shotgun. Also, from what I understand, they are just an 870 clone with a slight modification to accept mags. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Norinco makes a police shotgun with a detach mag called the Hawk Type 97-1. These are actually carried by Chinese police. Not sure if they are imported here. It also comes in a bullpup version. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/hawk_pump_std.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/mac66/hawk_pump_bullpup.jpg They are imported by Dominion Arms, but not the bullpup one. The bullpup one has a built in flashlight on the pump and is, in my opinion, the ideal home defense shotgun. Also, from what I understand, they are just an 870 clone with a slight modification to accept mags. How are they importing them into the US? I thought all Chinese guns and ammo were banned from importation. |
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