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Posted: 12/31/2008 10:03:10 PM EDT
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Why are there so few shotguns that utilize detachable box magazines? It seems that it would reduce loading times as
one would only have to change magazines rather than filling a tube. The only ones I can think of are the Saiga-12, USAS, and SPAS-15. I think a AR style shotgun would be awesome! |
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" During the same timeframe (mid '90's) Gilbert equipment Co tried to bring semi-automatic version of USAS-12 to US market, but BATF promptly classified this weapon as "having no sporting purpose", so it became "Class III destructive device" under US 1934 Gun Control Act. This greatly restricted its civilian use. During late 1990s, RAMO Defence Co began to assemble USAS-12 shotguns from Korean and US-made parts for sale on domestic market, but then again, sales of this weapon were limited to government agencies only." Link
I guess no one wants to fight with the BATF. |
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There have been a few over the years.
HK CAWS Valtro pump actions Beretta 1201FP3 Benelli M3/Beretta combo with a M3 style folding stock AA12 which is like the USAS-12 Marlin Goose Masters  3 shot mag bolt action
There is a new one with a FN P90 style mag IMO mag fed shotguns are great for 3 gun, but stuff more than 8 or 10 round and the single stack mag gets REALLY LONG. Plus LEO departments are cheap and it is easier to buy a few Mossbergs, Remingtons etc than one USAS-12. |
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They can make something NFA just by saying that it has no sporting purpose? How is that even possible? Because the law says they can... a 12ga shotgun has a bore > 0.50... MOST are legal because of an SPORTING PURPOSES EXEMPTION in the NFA.... Never mind that the "law" violates any notion of separation of powers. I wonder if SCOTUS will start getting into the enforcement side of the game, seeing as how a federal agency is apparently competent to intepret the law? |
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Why are there so few shotguns that utilize detachable box magazines? It seems that it would reduce loading times as one would only have to change magazines rather than filling a tube. The only ones I can think of are the Saiga-12, USAS, and SPAS-15. I think a AR style shotgun would be awesome! An AR style shotgun would be really heavy and bulky if it was in 12ga. The only USAS12 I have seen in real life was in Bangkok, Thailand where a security guard was holding it at the front door of a jewelry store. It looked huge next to that guard who was probably under 5'4". On the other hand, theres a company in Turkey that is making a 410ga AR15 shotgun that seems to be based on a standard AR receiver and just the upper is a dedicated shotgun upper. The mags are single stacked or semi-staggered and the barrel was 20". Looks like a standard A2 except with no flash suppressor. |
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Why are there so few shotguns that utilize detachable box magazines? It seems that it would reduce loading times as one would only have to change magazines rather than filling a tube. Keep in mind, the vast majority of shotguns are sold for hunting or trap / skeet / sporting clays. For the most part, these activities are limited by laws or sport rules to 1, 2, or 3 rounds max in the gun. Even with the growing interest in 3-gun and other Practical Shotgun competition, there is still relatively little demand for a fast-reloading shotgun. (I write this as I sit here on a half-dozen Siaga mags, and I still don't have a shotgun to go with them.  )
eta: There were also some Russian pump shotguns that used a box magazine. A number of them were cut down into SBS by C&S Metal Works as seen here. |
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Quoted:
Why are there so few shotguns that utilize detachable box magazines? It seems that it would reduce loading times as one would only have to change magazines rather than filling a tube. The only ones I can think of are the Saiga-12, USAS, and SPAS-15. I think a AR style shotgun would be awesome! That would be hot, but for now, I have to settle for 
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USN China Lake was quite interested in a magazine fed shotgun, based on the success of the weapon in the Indochina wars. They were quite interested in the concept and explored it throughly. They modified several existing shotguns, such as the Remington 7188/870, Stevens, Winchester and Ithacas to take detachible box magazines. They even collaberated with Winchester to make a version of the model 1200 and 1400 that used a converted M14 magazine. The idea resurfaced again in the 1980's with the H&K CAW's concept.
While excellent in concept, its not ideal in practice. 12 gauge ammo is even heavier than 7.62x51 NATO, which means that your average soldier wouldn't be carrying many loaded shotgun magazines. The average loadout for a MBR was 120 rounds, due to the weight of the cartridge. Thats not alot when you consider the dynamic nature of combat, especially CQB for which a shotgun would be used. A soldier using a magazine fed shotgun would certainly be carrying less. No matter how strong the soldier, the math is always against you. 12 gauge ammo is designed to be fed in a tubular, not detachible magazine. The stresses placed on the sides of the hull are more than it was designed to endure. To circumvent this, hulls made entirely out of brass were used. However, these again increased weight and development costs. Certainly, suitible shells could be designed expressly for magazine fed shotguns. IIRC, Brown Bear used to make metal hulled shells just for Saiga shotguns. However, this would add to the development costs and there would be no guarantee that the "new shell" would work in legacy systems designed for conventional shells. There has yet to be a completely suitible weapons system. Many are heavy, cumbersome and obscure. By and large, they lack the reliability of tublular magazine shotguns. The Saiga is a very robust and reliable gas operated shotgun, but it hasn't always fared well in testing. The Benelli M1 Super 90 is the most widely adopted automatic shotgun among military/LE forces currently. Several independent tests have proven it to one of the most reliable/durable shotguns availible. Thats not to say the Saiga or SPAS15 aren't good, they just don't have the military/lab proven track record. Several EU agencies have adopted the SPAS15 but they are still quite rare. Tactics have also largely negated the issue. Operators have always seemed to find away around the limited magazine capacity and relative slow reload times of their shotguns. Shotguns have also been a very limited issue item, thus there was no real motivation to improve something that was perceived to be working so well. Now that the US is back at war and involved in increasing MOUT activities, the shotgun has become more popular. There are new, ever more capable loads being developed, including an exploding shell. Currently, the military is developing the XM26 which is a straight-pull, magazine-fed 12 gauge shotgun. Its essentially a continuation onto the KAC/Remington 870 "Masterkey" which is mounted under the barrel of a carbine, like a M203. The XM26 can also be used as a stand-alone system, which is also being developed. However, magazine fed or not-if you were in combat, would you select the XM26 over the M1107? I wouldn't.... |
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