Armory Sponsor
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Anti-Material Alternative? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/1/2008 11:50:59 AM EDT
|
Is there a viable alternative to the .50 BMG as an anti-material round? (At reduced ranges perhaps?) |
 Damn just when I was happy with my Barrett  That thing is Badass...13k Badass  FREE 
|
|
It takes approximately $4 a gallon to stop my truck. Other anti-material applications such as schwacking radar dishes and antennas depend more on simply poking holes in sensitive areas-it does not have to be an A-team style explosion to bugger it up. As far as anti-material boom sticks, look at large bore (.338 and up) monolithic/solid bullets and reasonable velocities of I'd guess 2500 fps and up (on impact). Since I am getting more of an anti transport vibe here... I'd suggest that instead of trying to kill a small-block engine, that you look at making the driver/operator ill-vis a vis lead poisoning. Frankly, it is bad mojo trying to get 'mobility kills' with anything less than .50 BMG Raufoss load. And, I can't think of a reason you would be legally justified to hunt cars. "Check out the Mercedes I just had mounted Fred...it's a three pointer," |
I like his DuraCoat pattern. "i'll just put a sticker here, and there....and....screw it" |
|
Got it. complete SHTF. Radiated foreign national zombies wearing FEMA polos, riding in BlackWater SUVs. Only one way in or out to your bug-out compound... and here they come. Again, why not just eliminate the driver/operator/occupants. Do not F around with the vehicle as the primary threat. It takes huge amounts of small arms fire to kill a hostile vehicle "Dead Right There". I stand by this assertion through first hand observation. Barring a .50 caliber class weapon, I just don't see a "one shot stop" with a rifle unless you get lucky with a .460 Weatherby shooting solids. You could mortally wound a car with a couple of engine block assault rifle rounds, but it will take some time to seize up, generally. You want to stop a vehicle? Schwack the DRIVER. Careful though-5.56 generally swiss cheeses sheet metal pretty good, but the ball loadings have a tendency to deflect off of tempered auto glass windshields. Better use enough Booolets... Is there something I am missing here? |
|
What kinda vehicle are you gunning for? I remember when a Dallas SWAT officer ran after a bonehead driving a stolen tractor trailer, and disabled him with a pistol shot to the leg, through the cab door. November 7, 2001, I think, it was originally loaded with lumber. Quite an entertaining chase, actually. |
In the unlikely event that I ever needed to take out a radar or other antenna, I am confident in the ability of 7.62x51 to do the job (as accuracy will be more required than brute force). Having a background in digital design is good for something after all.
Buck / Buick, close enough for me.
Zombies wearing polos... I had not considered that. [facepalm]
Because there are times when you might not want to start a full blown war - but you would like to get the point across. Consider a recent incident where some scum stole the wire between my FIL's well-house and pump. Apparently for the copper. It was a pretty good run of wire and they even reached down in the well casing as far as they could to cut it off. This isn't Texas, so if we caught them we really couldn't just shoot them. However, I would love to hear this police report: "uh, I was stealing this guy's wire and he put a round through my engine block..." So, people stealing firewood, pumping water out of the ponds, trying to bulldoze through the Osage Orange, generators, etc. |
|
I am enjoying this thread-thought provoking. Considering the cost and availability of real .30 AP, no. Big bore solids going fast are your best bet. Look at .338 and up. I am sorry to hear that your father in law got ripped off, that sucks. Thieves like this usually do way more in damage in getting the property than what the property is actually worth by its self. Generally speaking you can't justify snuffing thieves outright, unless they are a real threat. So I am more sympathetic to your initial warning or anti-mobility shot thinking. Authorities take a dim view of killing over chattel. But consider some other SHTF consequences too. Consider this scenario; The bad-guy vehicle/occupants have crossed your final protective fire "line" and you dump a anti-vehicle round into their SUV. It sputters to a stop and dies. Now you have half a dozen dismounts wandering your property/neighborhood, and I am sure at this point they are not happy. A-SHTF Katrina style looters will probably soil themselves, drop their Lorcins and TEC-9s' and bump into each other repeatedly as they pull up their baggy gang pants and run away. B-The aforementioned SHTF U.N. deputized zombies toss smoke, move to cover, call black painted rotary wing air support and minigun you to shreds. They then proceed to bound by teams to your firing position and bayonet your corpse. Silliness aside, I believe that if you are justified in shooting a bad guy car, you are justified in shooting the occupants, especially in a real SHTF scenario. Looting can be un-healthy; occupational hazard. I would not want to eliminate their fastest means of leaving my area either-the way they got there in the first place. Make the hard choice, or hold your fire. If you are convinced still that for your needs you must have a dedicated anti-vehicle rifle-get the biggest baddest puppy you can afford and load it with rounds appropriate for angry rhino-big bore high velocity solids and go for it! Barret makes nice .50s' and now .338 rifles that would fit your needs. |
|
I think 20mm are destrictive devices and NFA laws apply. I don't know about the ammo though. It might be cool to have a live 20mm for a paperweight. As to antimaterial at short ranges have you considered the 12 guage slug? 100 yards or so and it whacks the shit out of whatever it hits. Plus it won't run you nearly as much as the cheapest fifty cal. |
|
I heard a story from A-stan of a Canadian sniper team with AIs in .338 Lapua that first took out a technical with a single shot to the engine, it was at a range of almost 2000 meters, the Taliban idiots jumped out of the truck to wonder why the engine had seized, then the sniper team let loose another salvo of .338s at the idiots and dropped them good. So it has its place sometime. Didnt think about 30-06 M1 AP though. |
I think Winchester has solid copper slugs. |
|
Velocity / Energy Comparisons: At Muzzle: 2100 / 2937 12 Gauge Sabot Slug (300 gr Winchester XP3) 2880 / 3038 .308 Win (165 gr Hornady Light Mag) 2950 / 4347 .338 Winchester Magnum (225 gr Hornady) 3100 / 5334 .338 Lapua Magnum (250 gr Hornady) 3250 / 9380 .416 Barrett (400 gr) 2978 / 13,971 .50 BMG (700 gr Barnes) 400 Yards: - / - 12 Gauge Sabot Slug (300 gr Winchester XP3) 2087 / 1595 .308 Win (165 gr Hornady Light Mag) 2075 / 2151 .338 Winchester Magnum (225 gr Hornady) 2505 / 3484 .338 Lapua Magnum (250 gr Hornady) |
|
Realistically I would have to agree with M4HK, a .300 win mag with pulled .30-06 AP rounds would work well but probably not especially accurate. In regards to what it would take to stop a tank in its track though? I did some searching around here on that there World Wide Web and found these sites. http://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120ke.htm http://www.on-targetrange.com/energy.shtml on the calculator I entered 8,350 grams as bullet weight, or the 8.35 Kilo load on the Rheinmetal website, and 1,750 meters per second as the muzzle velocity per the same site and I got 9,431,738.7 Ft/Lbs of Muzzle Energy. This is by no means exact but I figure its probably pretty close to what a Sabot out of a 120MM smoothbore makes, kind makes the 12,000 or so Ft/lbs of the 50 bmg a little, ah weak? wonder if you could get P-mags for that round? LOL |
|
I remembered in SAR a couple of years ago someone was going to produce a "short" fifty based on a big magnum Ruger 77 action. Really efficient and hard hitting-not quite up to the original Browning spec, but still a respectable loading with the capability to knock out wheeled vehicles. Any info on that? |
TIres or tracks? 2x6 full of nails will stop a non-tracked vehicle faster than trying to shoot the engine. If you have to shoot, shoot the driver. |
I'm sure that a highly trained military sniper equipped with a .338 Lapua shooting armor piercing incendiary projectiles could easily disable a wide variety of military hardware. . |
I meant for us civies, aka no AP. |
Probably tires, but if someone tries to bulldoze the fence row it will be tracks. Putting 2x6's full of nails all over the hay field wouldn't be too practical. |
|
I wonder how these would be when scaled down to .338 size? Aluminum with tungsten carbide inserts (ignore the copper and brass slugs):  From this thread www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=197253&page=17:
|
|
My interest is peaked now in the .50 PeaceKeeper. A .50 round at 2600 fps out of a 13 pound repeater, with less recoil than a typical 35lb single shot...IIIII LIKE IT! Kali legal too, apparently only .50 BMG is on the banned list. I don't think I'll be schwacking anything more hostile than watermelons with it though. Calling SSK today for a price quote before the future-ex spends all my money. |
Shoot the driver
|
All things in moderation. If someone is stealing copper wire, I would rather disable their vehicle and then call a tow truck to have it towed. They can pay the tow service and repair their vehicle at their discretion. I know nothing about military vehicles and I can tell you right now that if a black helicopter loaded with blue-helmeted goons lands in my back pasture, they will find me in my best overalls with a wheat straw hanging out of one side of my mouth. They will quickly realize what a inbred and ignorant hillbilly I am. |
|
I don't know this for sure, but I'm guessing that if you don't have some sort of "castle" laws (or whatever they are referred to as) you can't just send .50 caliber rounds in their general direction when they are stealing your stuff. Don't quote me on that though. The reason I say it is because I know you can't shoot somebody if all they are doing is say, stealing your tv. You can't hold a visibly un-armed person at gunpoint either, that would be considered assault. Shooting in somebody's general direction potentially puts them at risk, after all, sometimes you can miss your target. Who knows how the police/judge/DA might respond to your actions. Gotta make sure your ass is legally covered in all directions. It would suck beyond all belief if you went to jail for trying stop some POS thieves that are stealing your propety. |
|
Foot-pounds isn't the measure of a rounds performance against vehicles. Also, what is your definition of stopping a vehicle? You are going to need to be in the 20-30mm+ neighborhood to stop most vehicles dead in thier tracks. However, you could approach many MBT's from the rear and unload a 9x19 SMG into the engines cooling ports. Hitting critical engine/turbine components would ultimatly stop the vehicle. However, tracks are the most vulnerable part of a MBT/APC and thus the best target. Mud or debris between the track and road wheels will cause the vehicle to "throw a track". Western vehicles are even more succeptible to this sort of damage, due to generally narrower tracks. During the Waco tradgedy, a NG M60 based engineering vehicle was disabled when it ran over a fleeing/wounded man. He became entangled in the track and disabled the tank. Suffice to say, shooting a vehicle to stop it is a last resort and requires some pretty serious ammo for optimal effect. Shooting vehicles is so sketchy that even weapons like the M72 LAW and RPG7 aren't always effective. There are way to many failures of the M72 LAW to go into, but suffice to say it worked better in Maximum Overdrive than it did in actual combat. Even the RPG7 isn't perfect. The former president of Georgia's commercially armored Mercedes was attacked by RPG's and sustained a direct hit to the engine. The car was able to drive over 15 miles at high speed to safety. There are better ways to stop a vehicle than to shoot it with anything short of an AGM114 or APFSDS round. Shooting the driver or building a "trap" or obsticle is a way better solution. That being said, pretty much every major small arms system has a proven record of stopping or destroying vehicles. The overwhelming majority of US helocopters downed in Indochina were hit with "small arms", not AAA. M2 ball was used to disable vehicles in Europe, Israel and Indochina. As was 5.56 and 7.62 NATO. Hit critical components, such as ignition/cooling/drivers and you will stop the vehicle. The most effective weapon a civilian would have to stop a vehicle would probably be some type of semi-auto .30 caliber belt fed. Be it an RPD, M60, M240SLR or even 1919's, any of these would present a problem at a road block. Better yet, get a semi-auto M2. An FAL/G3/M1A/BAR/AK would also be an effective weapon. My choice would be my Benelli M2 or Saiga12 shooting Barnes slugs. |
|
A Law or RPG works almost as good as $4.00/gal. gas at stopping any vehicle! But seriously, now is the time to get that destructive device you have had your eye on down at the local class 3 dealers/liquor/wedding chapel/auto repair/bait shop! Either the M203 or the M-79 grenade launcher Might set you back around $2000.00 plus the $200 transfer fee, but don't forget to pick up some HE rounds as well!!! The HE rounds will also set you back a few grand for a case "if you can find them" and a $200.00 transfer fee on each round!!!! Happy car hunting to you sir and let us know what you end up bagging, BTW bag yourself a tasty ford for the family because I have been told the the Chevy's are stringy and full of grizzle but then I hear that Toyota's are tasty but you will just be hungry 30 minute later so hunt accordingly.
|
458 Socom with Speer African grand slam Tungsten core, one of the reasons the 458 was invented. They are the only tungsten core bullets civies will be able to get a hold of. They are expensive as hell. I stocked up at a sale. Marty will not tell you who the round was built for, but he has hinted. Can you really think of a reason the SOF guys need a big ass round on a little gun. Anti material. I cant imagine what it would do with a total tungsten bullet. That will go through some shit. The speers will go through AR500 1/2" at range |
I hear those 458 socom AR's kick like a cross eyed govt. mule but I would still like one. So how much kick, are we talkin 7 mag or more like 308????? 
|
12 ga at the most, not as sharp as a rifle round, more of a push like a shotgun with the 400-500 gr rounds |
|
at short range a .458 SOCOM would work. I know the state dept used .50 Beowulfs from helos to stop cars in the sandbox. Shot straight down through the hood. A .50 Peacekeeper would be the ticket for something much more mobile than a .50 BMG. I have tested two of them. Very impressive. Expensive though due to the modified Weatherby brass..... |
Interesting. It looks like the .458 SOCOM doesn't bring much that the .45-70 doesn't already have (other than the ability to be used in the AR platform). As far as tungsten cores go, I am still curious about how viable the aluminum/tungsten combo is (picture somewhere in this thread). Aluminum is easy enough to cast and drill. These should be easy enough to come up with for inserts (back row) : 
|
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Anti-Material Alternative? (Page 1 of 2)
Armory Sponsor