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Posted: 12/23/2002 6:41:00 PM EDT
Does anyone know where I can find some factual test results for shootings or ballistic potential of 00 buck vs. 000 buck?
Our Police department is considering going from 00 to 000. I have heard that it groups better and it makes sense that it should penetrate better. I understand that there are fewer pellets but I'm having a hard time finding any other drawbacks. Thanks
Link Posted: 12/23/2002 7:04:58 PM EDT
Testing grouping is easy - get a few boxes of shells, some butcher block paper, cardboard backing, and a shotgun. I would even volunteer to do the tests myself for a small fee .

Have a look over at the ammo forum for some of the gel testing results pages where you'll likely find your buck shot tests.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 3:09:28 AM EDT
Paul, Thanks for the offer and the info. We plan to do our own testing for acuracy and groups but I will check out the ammo section for the rest of the info that I'm looking for.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 7:24:48 AM EDT
I always prefered #1 buck. It actually carries a heavier load and number of pellets. 16-20 .30 cal. pellets over #00's 9-12 .33 cal. I was told by someone who hunts big game in Africa, that its the choice of guides going into the bush after wounded cats. Dont know for sure thats true, but it is a hell of a up close load.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 7:55:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2002 7:56:10 AM EDT by Silence]
www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Read this, I found it interesting a while back.

It also reccomends #1 buck over 00 and 000 buck.


Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.



Link Posted: 12/24/2002 11:56:56 AM EDT

penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances


OK.. now what is a typical shotgun engagement distances

Thanks..
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 12:16:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cluster:

penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances


OK.. now what is a typical shotgun engagement distances

Thanks..



Not exactly sure But I'll hazard a guess & say under 25 yrds.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 12:19:29 PM EDT

OK.. now what is a typical shotgun engagement distances


Personally, I'd say between 15-25 yards max. with buckshot. 0-15 being more realistic.
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 8:55:04 AM EDT
Well, they say almost all (Over 80%) police-involved shootings are at less than 7 yards so I'll hazard a guess that's what they mean. I would also guess less than 7 yards because that's about as far as our standard police 870s will keep all the pellets on a human-sized target. Some of the guys that have Vang-Comped guns can go out to 30 yards and beyond but the regular cylinder guns don't hold a pattern that well.
The patterning issue is what is causing us to look for something that holds a pattern better. We have been looking at the Remington 00 8-pellet Tactical loads and they have been grouping GREAT for us. We haven't been getting the occasional fliers like we do with the Federal Tac loads.
While we were testing the Remington 00 loads, we were told to also test the 000 loads and that's why we're researching them also.
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 9:13:24 AM EDT
Since your held to a different standard than us "civies", whats considered acceptable as far as groups and at what range are your limits? I'm not sure what you mean by flyers, like the one pellet that opens a group up, or one thats way out from the others? On standard silhouette(IPSC) targets, #1 buck out of my Ithaca, Remington, and Winchester shotguns(cyl. bored)consistently will put all 16 pellets into 10" or less(usually less) at 10 yards. At 25 yards, I usually have a couple missing from the target, but the target is pretty well covered at the point I was aiming.
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 9:34:55 AM EDT
At 7 yards, even from a cylinder choke, the perp should be eating all the shot and the wad. 15 yards would see a deal of difference. I was always told to use #4 buck. 25 .22 cal. pellets. Like taking a full Ram-line magazine from a 10/22 all at the same time.
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 1:41:34 PM EDT
EPD1102;

Replied to you in the other forum, but the standard "rule of thumb"...rough, but itwill hold pretty well...is about one inch of pellet spread per yard of distance. At 7yd. you should be getting 6-8in. patterns with almost any buckshot loads out there. The Tactical loads will shoot tighter. I have seen many, many old 870s with "cylinder" bores that can easily keep #00 on a silhouette to 12-15yd. (not in the white...on target) Are you having a problem with the guns shooting high?
Link Posted: 12/26/2002 5:03:54 PM EDT
00..seems to be the "norm".....personally.....00...or #4 turkey...3"....would do any damage necessary.......a friend says #4 buck......but if turkey 3"ers arent enough......then some`ting wong......actually.....#4 high brass spreaders are pretty damned effective......there sure is a lot of arguement here.....but these are all easy to get.......
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 7:02:58 AM EDT
We see the standard rule of thumb about 1 inch of spread per yard of distance on most of our guns but not all. We have about 100 870s in our arsenal that officers can check out if they don't want to buy their own gun. Of course, we want all of our shotguns to keep all of the shot in a torso-sized area so we don't get downrange hits on non-targets.
With the Federal Tactical 00 loads, we seem to get 1 or 2 pellets out of each shell that just want to do their own thing. That's why we're re-thinking our shotgun ammo. The Remington 8-pellet 00 buck has done the best for us but they're damn proud of it. The best prices we can find are still double what we can get the Federal for.
Link Posted: 12/27/2002 10:02:11 AM EDT
try gil hebard....knoxville ill.....phone is 309-289-2700....fax is 2233......they advertise fed le ammo #4 and #2....both in different configurations for better patterns.....hope they`re still there but great people to work with......probably give you a decent price ..don`t know how it will compare...but worth the effort........
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