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Posted: 12/1/2002 2:46:04 PM EDT
Just curious about everyones opinion here.

I personaly vote for the Mauser 98 for rifle,
A tossup between the 1911 and the Glock for pistol. Remington 870 for shotgun, UZI for sub-gun, FN-MAG for LMG, and the Ma-Duce for HMG.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 2:55:52 PM EDT
Out of the box:
Rifle= AK's
Handgun= Glock
Shotgun= Remington pumps
GPMG= Browning M-1919A3
Subgun= HK MP-5
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 2:57:23 PM EDT
Ever?
1. Pike
2. Ax
3. Hammer
4. Sword
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 2:57:47 PM EDT
Wish I could really have an educated opinion on this but haven't bought enough guns yet! LOL
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 3:05:08 PM EDT
What did Cain kill Able with, a rock or a club?

Which ever he used...it still works!

Link Posted: 12/1/2002 3:06:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By soylent_green:
Ever?
1. Pike
2. Ax
3. Hammer
4. Sword



You Beat me to it.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 3:28:30 PM EDT
I took the Mauser 98 over any semi-auto, because even an AK, if you break your only magazine you're kind of screwed. With a 98, even if you lose the floorplate which would be like losing the buttstock on an AK, you can still operate it as a single loader fast enough to survive.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 4:03:31 PM EDT
How about M1A?
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 4:07:59 PM EDT
How about it? Action streignth is nothing fantastic, more or less as sensitive to dirt as a Garand...a good rifle? Yes. One of the top 10 reliable? May be, but not in the top 5. I cant think of a single semi-auto that is more reliable than a Mauser.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 4:08:44 PM EDT
The AR-15/M16A2. The most reliable and effective weapons in the world.

Then again, M1903 was pretty reliable. And the M1911A1 for pistol.

For machine gun, I'm thinking M134 Minigun, because you don't even have to have working ammunition.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 4:11:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RebelGray:
Just curious about everyones opinion here.

I personaly vote for the Mauser 98 for rifle,
A tossup between the 1911 and the Glock for pistol. Remington 870 for shotgun, UZI for sub-gun, FN-MAG for LMG, and the Ma-Duce for HMG.



If you are talking about actually proven in combat, I would say the M1 Garand and the AK. Of course, the Mauser is reliable as are most bolt guns. Actually, the M16 has been proven to be very reliable after all the initial bugs were worked out.

Pistols, the 1911 and the Walther that the Germans used in WWII. When has a Glock ever been proven in combat?

Subguns, the Uzi is great, but what makes it any better than the Thompson or the old grease gun?

Link Posted: 12/1/2002 4:16:50 PM EDT
Larry-
Wasnt discussing features, or even kill-power necessicarily. I was thinking of how badly you could abuse the weapon and still have it function.

ARs are great rifles, but even the A2s and M4s have been known to malf in fine-grit/dust conditions where a bolt action will still function flawlessly.

The UZI is better than a Thompson and a Grease Gun for a number of reasons, one is that its designed to work in one of the harshest of all envrionments. Thompsons, even M1A1s, are finely crafted works that had to be cared for to a certain standard. I'm not aware of an UZI ever malfunctioning because it went ten thousand rounds without being cleaned.

Grease guns? Dunno. Not a lot of experience with them. I do know the cocking hole is a pyle of crap though.

As for the gatteling guns, give 'em to Somali tribesmen and see how long it takes for them to stop functioning.

Too much going on in an M134 to be reliable. Needs power, constant quality maintenance, etc...

I'm talking about a weapon you'd take with you where you had few if any cleaning supplies, no spares, and the environment was sandy, dusty, alternated between extreme hot and cold, and the people you were going to equip were not the best about cleaning/being nice to their guns...
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 4:26:42 PM EDT
Fist and Foot
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 5:07:01 PM EDT
Anything made by Special Weapons!

There was a similar thread on thefiringline.com a few weeks back and I stand by my same answer there.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 5:31:39 PM EDT
a rock and a sling.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 5:37:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR18:
a rock and a sling.



David and Golith!
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 6:12:39 PM EDT
out of my personal collection... M1 Garand
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 6:15:11 PM EDT
bare hands ...

can't drop em ... always at the ready ... training is cheap (doesn't require training aids or ammo) ... everyone has it already (so no added cost) ... easier to conceal than a 3 foot+ rifle ... no added weight ... silent ...
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 6:59:00 PM EDT
Nukes!

Or...

Anything by Hesse if you use it as a club.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 7:25:46 PM EDT
Something that hasn't been invented yet...

other than that, the Soldier himself, unless he gets 'cramps'!
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 7:28:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevilsAdvocate:
Nukes!



Agreed, nothing beats a good ol' thermonuclear bomb.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 7:38:50 PM EDT
rock, paper, scissors
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 7:47:12 PM EDT
crossbow.. From any century throughout thier long history.

If gunpowder was never discovered (God forbid! *gasp*) we'd probably all be using them still.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 7:56:17 PM EDT
bayonet
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 8:21:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jus228:
crossbow.. From any century throughout thier long history.


Crossbows won't work well in the rain, longbows will.
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 8:28:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 9:29:43 PM EDT
I would take an AK over any Mauser or bolt gun for that matter. AK mags are about the toughest there is, plus they have looser tolerances than most bolt guns. Dirt often leads to extraction problems, AKs always extract. An yes, you can easily load an AK single shots at a time.

Pistols? 1911...hands down.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 9:38:57 PM EDT
A3-03 has same bolt as mauser,AK-47 even without mag will work single fire! SKS great rifle,Hakim 8 mil even if gas tube failure will still work single fire,M1 Grande has bolt lever can be racked so as to shoot single fire!

So whats the point? I own a 1908/34 mauser I think its great,but not the very best rifle ever(just because peterpaul and brother made the very best bolt action ever) All really great bolt rifles have mauser type actions!


Bob
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 9:44:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
I would take an AK over any Mauser or bolt gun for that matter. AK mags are about the toughest there is, plus they have looser tolerances than most bolt guns. Dirt often leads to extraction problems, AKs always extract. An yes, you can easily load an AK single shots at a time.

Pistols? 1911...hands down.

Sgtar15



We get back about 600 yards and you might want to reconsider!

Bob
Link Posted: 12/1/2002 11:09:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bobbyjack:
A3-03 has same bolt as mauser,AK-47 even without mag will work single fire! SKS great rifle,Hakim 8 mil even if gas tube failure will still work single fire,M1 Grande has bolt lever can be racked so as to shoot single fire!

So whats the point? I own a 1908/34 mauser I think its great,but not the very best rifle ever(just because peterpaul and brother made the very best bolt action ever) All really great bolt rifles have mauser type actions!


Bob




Once again you're going far beyond the bounds of the original question.

I didnt ask what the best rifle ever was, I asked which rifle could go through the toughest punishment and still function properly. A Garand or an AK that you have to single load and manually operate the bolt is not functioning as per its original design. I guarentee you both those rifles will be shot like that (single shot manual) when the Mauser is still operating properly.

I've shot Mausers (actually an Arisaka, the strongest of the Mauser family) caked in cosmoline in nearly every pore and crevice. It stunk like hell but it still shot accuratly. If cosmo isnt the most penetrating garbage I dont know what is.

Incidently, the 1903 Springfield is a really shi##y rip-off of a Mauser 95 action. Having owned and shot quite a few Springfields, I'd go so far as to say they are a marginaly dangerous breed. Even if you get one with proper heat treating on the reciever, there are some reverse-engineering flaws that weaken certain vital parts of the rifle so that even a small amount of damage (pitting for example) would render the weapon a time-bomb.

The Springfield 03 is the greatest myth of the 20th Century- its contributions to service in Europe during the Great War were negligable, with the far better Enfield P.1917, and No1MkIII serving in far larger numbers in US hands through out the war.

In the inter-war period, the Springfield served in the South American and Asian campaigns, but most of those rifles saw one or two engagements max against completely outclassed enemies. Besides the fact, that most of the action they saw was in the hands of the USMC, a service that maintains their weapons far better than I maintain my car.

During WWII they saw limited action again, mostly with Marines who were eager only to keep it because it was a tried and true bolt action. Even the Free-Europe forces that went into Normandy chose nearly overwhelmingly to carry the 1917 Enfield. Even in 1903A4 guise, the Springfield vies with the various Mauser 98Ks as the poorest sniper platforms of the war, with the ancient 1891 Mosin Nagant and 38th Meiji Arisaka out-performing it in the hands of the snipers of their respective countries.

The two American turnbolt-action battle rifles are largely a failure. The 1898 Krag being nearly a decade obsolete, and too weak for a serious combat round.

The only American bolt gun that I'd put up at the top of the 'pantheon' of bolt action battle rifles is the Remington-Lee straight pull. If the US military hadnt tried to put smokless rounds ment for the newer models into the old black powder rifles, they would have seen that. The 6mm M.99 Remington-Lee is an incredibly accurate, fast shooting, fast loading weapon with very good durability in combat. Its a shame it was a MM too small for the big-thinkers of the time...
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 1:50:45 AM EDT
If we're talking rifles, I'd definately choose an enfield No1 MkIII over a Mauser.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 4:26:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By soylent_green:
Ever?
1. Pike
2. Ax
3. Hammer
4. Sword



I heard that more people have been killed by bow and arrow and sword than any other means on earth.

Think about it. Humans have been warring for thousands of years. The firearm only became effective in the last 200 years.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 5:04:28 AM EDT
Farts aimed in someone's general direction.


Balming
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:15:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 7:16:20 AM EDT by ikor]
Before, during and after WWII, the boys at Aberdeen Proving Grounds did a bunch of testing on military firearms of the time to include sand, mud, etc. The weapon that proved most reliable at that time was the M3 Grease gun. Every other weapon failed at the mud bath except the M3. No AKs, Uzis, etc. of course, since they were not around then.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:51:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 11:29:18 AM EDT by RiffRandall]
I'd say a club would be the most reliable...no moving parts, no edge to sharpen, etc. As far as firearms go I'd put the 1898 Mauser & the 1891 Mosin Nagant at the top of my list. The Mauser is much nicer but the Mosin makes the AK look like a finicky range queen. Designed to be abused by illiterate peasant draftee's in Russian winter conditions.

(edited to add)
As far as handguns I'd go with a old style Colt SAA. They might get occasionally out of sorts but can be made to work. If the hand&spring breaks you can advance the cylinder manually, if the sear breaks you can just slip fire it by letting go of the hammer, the ejector breaks use a stick to poke out the empty brass.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:01:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By soylent_green:
Ever?
1. Pike
2. Ax
3. Hammer
4. Sword



Thats what was thinking,ever is a long time.
If we are talking EVER here how about a stick or a big rock?
Easy to find,user friendly and you don't have to worry about the AW bn.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:06:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mpearcex:
bayonet



A jar head would say that..........

and yes I got it
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 12:11:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C_Brooks:

Thats what was thinking,ever is a long time.
If we are talking EVER here how about a stick or a big rock?
Easy to find,user friendly and you don't have to worry about the AW bn.



Depends if the rock has a folding stock or not.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 3:18:52 PM EDT
Harsh words to the overly sensitive?
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 4:16:35 PM EDT
Mauser 98
Vickers Mk1, Maxim MG08, Maxim M1910
Soumi SMG
Browning M1917
MG42
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 4:37:28 PM EDT

1. Pike

Whose pike? Where? What period? Long or short? Foot or horse?
Personally I would say that 16th century Japanese yari with their long double edged points that could pierce and slash were the best.

2. Ax

Stone, copper, bronze, iron or steel? One or two handed? Long or short?
Danish one handed steel with "bearded" head

3. Hammer

You know the drill
15th century Milan all steel with spike

4. Sword

Dont spend much time around swords do you? They break constantly.
This is the tough one. Got to include 13th century Japanese. But Toledo, Damascus, Solingen, and Samarkand all had good bladesmiths.
The Imperial Roman gladius was a good one too, so short and wide that even lesser made versions rarely broke-they just had trouble holding a good edge.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:54:26 PM EDT
Rifle = Lee Enfield (more reliable than either the Mauser or the AK!)

Pistol = SigP210
Revolver = Ruger GP100
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 2:01:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2002 2:02:55 AM EDT by raven]
Put an AK through the worst conditions imaginable and it'll still work. People always say that their AR's never give them trouble, but they treat them like babies, keep them assiduously clean and only shoot them at firing ranges.

Give me an AR and an AK, and let me go to work on them. Dragging them from a truck through mud, dunking them in rivers, taking them into subzero temps, not cleaning them, letting them rust for months, putting the crappiest ammo available in them.

After doing so, you're asked to risk $1000 on the following bet: If the AR can empty a mag without malfunction, you get $100,000. If the AK goes the distance, you get $1,500.

You'd be a sucker to bet on the AR.

Link Posted: 12/3/2002 3:05:49 AM EDT
I've jammed a Remington 870 on several occasions, and would have to exclude it from the list.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 10:23:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
Put an AK through the worst conditions imaginable and it'll still work. People always say that their AR's never give them trouble, but they treat them like babies, keep them assiduously clean and only shoot them at firing ranges.

Give me an AR and an AK, and let me go to work on them. Dragging them from a truck through mud, dunking them in rivers, taking them into subzero temps, not cleaning them, letting them rust for months, putting the crappiest ammo available in them.

After doing so, you're asked to risk $1000 on the following bet: If the AR can empty a mag without malfunction, you get $100,000. If the AK goes the distance, you get $1,500.

You'd be a sucker to bet on the AR.




I love this argument, I hear it all of the time. I have done all of these things with an M16 and yest it would still empty a mag. I have seen plenty of well used AKs and they do not hold up as well as people in the US seem to think they do, a nasty dirty Ak will jam, an AK that is abused will not be a reliable weapon. The reason that the AK is the prefered choice in the third world is purely econnomic, not tactical.
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