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Posted: 8/6/2002 9:11:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2002 8:02:44 PM EDT by MP906]
I'm getting ready to buy my first pistol. I've changed my mind between these three about 50 times and just can't decide which to get FIRST. Here's the skinny: They're all accurate, reliable, combat pistols but:

1. Beretta 92FS 9mm- I used this in my MP unit so I'm familiar w/ it. I have 7 preban mags already, and the price is good. But, it is not a new and exciting pistol to me.

2. SIG P226 9mm- Feels the best in my hands, supposedly the best trigger of the three, and it has the cool factor. Plus, I already have three preban mags. But, there are some major finish issues for such an expensive gun and I like an active safety on handguns. The new configuration for the 226 is to have a stainless steel slide blackened w/ Nitron. I've heard many rust stories and reports that it looks "shiny". Any opinions here. Pics of Nitron?

3. HKUSP45- Probably the "toughest" pistol of the group w/ the polymer frame and Hostile Environment finish. .45ACP is good and bad for defensive capabilities and higher cost of ammo. The grip is a little too jagged, but could remedy that w/ a hogue slip on. 12rd preban mags are expensive as hell. I do like the accessory rail.

Well, I'm definetly buying ALL three of these guns, but the one I buy now will be it for 6-12 months. I was dead set on a SIG until I read all the talk about refinishing the slide after only a year ot two of use. That is pretty bad for a $700+ gun. Plus, there is supposed to be a 226SO w/ an accessory rail coming out sometime(don't know if only LEO's or not).


Decisions, Decisions

Link Posted: 8/6/2002 9:36:05 PM EDT
Get the P226 in .357 SIG or .40 S&W.
Decocker is always better than manual safety.
HK USP45 is too expensive ammo and mags.
Beretta is too fragile.

Link Posted: 8/6/2002 9:36:48 PM EDT
Get the HK
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 9:39:30 PM EDT
Well I just picked up a 92FS today. I'd shot them before and I really liked it. Rugged, reliable. You've got the hi-caps already so that is a plus.

I'm a Glock man myself. I have a G21 and a G30 in .45. Glocks have about the least safeties of any handgun out there. With the double action trigger pull on the Sig that is enough of a safety as anyone should need in my book. If you are following proper shooting discipline, keeping your finger off the trigger until you are on target then you'll be fine.

I'm left handed so the Glocks lack of an active safety device appeals to me. I don't have to fumble with safeties to bring the pistol into action. When I carry my S&W 5904 I carry with the safety off because it is the way I train with my Glocks.... pull trigger make bang!

Anyway, you've selected all top quality pistols so there is no clear winner in my mind. Your best bet is to find a range that you can test out the Sig and HK and see if you like them more than the 92FS.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 9:46:42 PM EDT
Sig P 220 in 45 ACP . Get the 8 round mags and you will never regret it .My P220 eats ammo that turns the USP45 into a jammomatic .Screw the 92FS . Remember a 9MM is just a 45 set on stun .Or the bigger the hole , the harder they squirt .
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 9:46:49 PM EDT
I vote for the Sig.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 9:49:32 PM EDT
I still own a H&K & Beretta & used to have a Sig P-220. The H&K shoots rings around any other gun I've owned including a Glock 30.

Ammo cost difference is neglible if you shop at gunshows. 45acp can be had for $7-8/50rds for shoot 'em up ammo.

One is never disappointed when one buys the best. Get the H&K.

Besides, then you can get the shirt: Life is full of compromises. Some men don't: H&K.
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 10:03:48 PM EDT
I bought a HK USP 45 earlier this year and have close to (if not already) 1000 rounds through it.

HK all the way!!

Not a jam yet!!

I've shot Hydra-shoks, Corbon and some others through it, no problems at all - Very impressive!
Link Posted: 8/6/2002 10:25:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 4:10:12 AM EDT
If it were up to me, I would take the Sig and not even think twice about it. My second pick would be the H&K. My last would be the Beretta. The Sig's are as reliable as any handgun made, are extremely accurate, have a very comfortable grip and great sights. Plus, mags are available (even some hicaps for certain models) and are generally much cheaper and easier to find than H&K mags.

Choose the gun that the Navy SEAL's, Federal Air Marshals, US Secret Service, DEA and a host of other state and local agencies choose. That's the Sig-Sauer. While the H&K slogan sounds good....I would think that the agencies I mentioned above don't compromise either. Hehe. Get the Sig and you will be a happy individual.

As far as the finish goes, anything will eventually show holster wear. The Sigs do use a stainless slide with the Nitron coating over them. They are not shiny at all, in fact they are one of the best pistols I have seen for not being reflective. I have had my P229 now for about 2 years and carried it plenty. There is very minimal wear on it. And I bought it as a demo model so it saw use before I had it. No problems with rust either. The only thing you need to do is treat them with a little respect and clean them from time to time. If you do that, they will serve you well and the finish will remain good.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 5:22:03 AM EDT
Go with the SIG
1. It fit you better
2. My one 226 has over 20,000 rounds through it and I have only had to replace the springs (just a caution because it was my carry gun before the 239)
3. Changing between calibers is a big plus, and going from SIG to another requires minimal re-familiarization.
4. No complaints about SIG customer service unlike HK.
5. The only ammo it ever jammed on was Norinco 9mm. never a problem with any carry ammo.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 5:30:32 AM EDT
I would say get the Berreta. I've never had a single problem of any kind with mine and have found it to be very accurate. Only thing I don't like is that first DA shot, but you can get in the habit of cocking it.

There's also something to be said for familiarity, and you've already used it.

Just my 2 cents.

Link Posted: 8/7/2002 6:34:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 7:13:35 AM EDT
SIG P226.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 7:46:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2002 8:21:47 AM EDT by dieselpwer]
Get the HK!! I have a Compact in 357 SIG. I bought it last october I think it was, and have put a few thousand rounds through it and it's still in tip top shape. I love the thing. My buddy has the full size .45 and my older bro has the .45 tactical. They all shoot great. They me cost a little more and mags might be more but it is worth it IMHO!!

Link Posted: 8/7/2002 8:05:24 AM EDT

Stayed up late last night researching on the SIG forums. I found out the P226 w/ accessory rail is coming out to civilians, but not until late next Spring.

Thanks for all the advice, but now it's a toss-up b/n the HK and Beretta. Leaning towards HK. The SIG will come later of coarse, but I'd still like to see some pics of Nitron.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 9:52:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/7/2002 9:52:56 AM EDT by marvl]
If you want accessories, how about a S.A. Operator? Full length picatiny rail dust cover.

Link Posted: 8/7/2002 10:27:13 AM EDT
Faced with a similar decision a few years ago when looking for a primary defensive pistol, I went with the HK. My top three contenders were the Sig 220, Glock 21, and the ultimate winner for me, the HK.

Glock was factored out pretty quick. I just cant get a good natural point of aim with a full size glock. (Strangely enough, the 19 fits just fine....) Also, a manual safety was important to me at the time.

Sig? Nice. But, only seven rounds in the magazine and again, the safety issue.

HK. Ten in the mag. Manual safety...but has you know they can be had in almost any configuration. And it fit me like a glove, so to speak. Perfect point of aim for me...I mean perfect!!! Also, my research at the time had me convinced it was the most robustly built and reliable...but since then I have learned that the Sig's and Glocks are probably every bit as tough. Yes, the trigger on the Sig is fantastic, but the other factors on the HK won out. Figured the HK trigger was good enough.

Other than the trigger, downsides with the HK...

Magazines are expensive. Oh..by the way..it is my understanding that there are NO pre-ban hi capacity magazines for the USP .45.

HK's customer service is supposedly abyssmal. Given the USP's track record, this probably wont be a concern.
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:37:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:48:49 PM EDT
Get the sig.

Dependable. Tried all kinds of 9mm from my 226. Reloads, home loads, new, Never jamed on me yet.

Good luck on your choice
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 12:54:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sniper1az:
Sig P 220 in 45 ACP . Get the 8 round mags and you will never regret it .My P220 eats ammo that turns the USP45 into a jammomatic .Screw the 92FS . Remember a 9MM is just a 45 set on stun .Or the bigger the hole , the harder they squirt .



Sniper1az and other .45 fans: Only a 9mm, eh?

Well shall see when I put two in your heart and one in your head.

HK can shine my shoes....... that's all its good for, if it could even do that much. Too much recoil in any round.... nice gun though....

Anyways: MP906: Get the P226. Light recoil, Nitron finish and even the regular black is good enough. Might want to get it hard chromed in two three years . Also: 15 rounds of funtime!!! SIG P220 aint bad... but, its not my fave...
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 7:59:02 PM EDT

You guys are making this hard. The SIGS are sweet. Plus, I worked a trade in progress w/ a guy from the Falfiles...6 refinished AR mags for 3 NIW preban P226 mags. Not to bad IMHO.

But, I want to wait for the P226SO to come out just to see if I like the looks of it w/ an accessory rail.

I really wanted to start w/ a 9mm and work up, but the HK is calling me...10+1 rounds of .45ACP!!!

I have heard that the HK is fairly mild compared to other .45s b/c of the recoil system. Can someone confirm this?

I may just end up going w/ the old Beretta though. After all, I have all these mags lying around. What is the Beretta's finish? Blueing or some high-tech finish? I hope it is more than just blueing. IMHO, blueing is a little weak for a combat pistol.


Keep it coming, and let's see some pics.\


Link Posted: 8/7/2002 8:10:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Doggonit:
...Too much recoil in any round.... nice gun though....



just a thought, but the USP recoil reducing systems make .45s have about the same recoil as a 9mm

GET THE SIG!!!!
Link Posted: 8/7/2002 9:21:52 PM EDT
This decision is *supposed* to be hard...there's not a bad choice in the bunch.

But...get the SIG! It's accurate and reliable, and since it will be your only handgun for a while IMO you should go for function over looks.

Like you pointed out, you'd find the Beretta boring as you're already familiar with it.

Link Posted: 8/8/2002 7:48:44 AM EDT
If you want the 226 SO with accessory rail then you should also be looking at the beretta with accessory rail. I was not happy with the grip of the 92fs nor the trigger of the USP45. I ended up going with the HK USP Tactical 45. I was expensive but I dont regret it. If I had to do it again Id get a Beretta Elite 1A wich has a Vertec frame with the rails and slim grip, Brigadier slide and ambi decock only function. The safety on the other Berettas sucks. On the HK USP I find I often accidentally turn on the safety so I am making it decock only. Id go Beretta first because the pistol is $300 less the mags are hlaf as much and so is the light. If you ever get a can for it the beretta system is cheaper also because it does not need a recoil enhancer. SO you should get in this order...

Beretta Elite 1A
HK USP Tactical
Sig P226 SO

I have the Tac and my next purchase will be a Beretta Elite 1A in the next month. When the new Sig comes out it will be my last handgun purchase for a long time...

You will also want to make the following additions to these pistols.

Beretta Elite 1A
Regular (not short) speed bump trigger from LTT
Meprolight tritium adjustable sights (available in 6-12 mon.)
Insight M3

HK USP Tactical
Trigger job from Teddy Jacobson (DA sucks so it needs it)
Adj meprolight night sights (available now)
Change to decock only varient
Ambi decock lever install
Insight UTL MkII

then wait for the 226 SO and get the adj mepros, short trigger and M3 and you are done!
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 6:07:28 PM EDT
i agree that the sig finish, particularly on the slide, licks.

lauer custom weaponry has a special for 40 bucks to refinish the slide in duracoat. i just had mine done, and i'm pleased as punch. perfect addition to a near perfect pistola.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 6:18:51 PM EDT
Get the Sig. I've got the P220, Glocks, etc. None eat ammo like the Sig. There was a real world test done on a Sig, 10,000 rounds in one day. Yes, 10,000 rounds. 8 people shooting & loading mags. 4 malfunctions total. If I recall all but 1 was ammo related. I tried the Glock 21 the H&K, the Kimber CDP, none pointed like the Sig. I've been on all the forums, the sigforum.com has the highest number of satisfied owners out of all the mentioned guns. Sig is the gun I stake my life on.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 6:29:18 PM EDT
get them all...one at a time
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 6:36:06 PM EDT
I'm probably going to get beat-up, but:

I own a Springfield .45 1911 and a 92FS and I love them both with all my heart - BUT - anyone who goes around telling you that a 9mm "doesn't have stopping power" or "is a .45 set on stun" is begging to get nailed by a few pops to the chest with a 9mm. I don't think they would keep saying it, because I guarantee you a 9mm is an effective stopping round, and it's going to hit where the shooter intended, namely HOME.

I've had my .45 jam on occasion, but my Beretta feeds, shoots, and functions flawlessly - it's a really nice sidearm, erm, I mean, pistol.

P.S. I do not actually want ANYONE on this board to get shot with a 9mm. Piece. I mean, Peace.
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 6:44:11 PM EDT
Sig P220 .45
Link Posted: 8/8/2002 7:18:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2002 7:33:49 PM EDT by Corey]
Here's my experience and thoughts on these guns.

I own a SIG P226. Have had it a number of years and have generally abused it through lots of all around use. Eats anything I put in it whether it's wet, dry, dirty, etc. It's the one gun that I feel comfortable with sticking in a hidden pistol safe and not checking for a few months at a time. Never had a hint of a problem with it. I pull the trigger and it goes bang. Very accurate and mild recoil. Mine was also a police trade in with a few miles on it. The blued slide is looking worn in places but it has never shown a hint of rust (I have the older carbon steel stamped slide). Absolutely incredible handgun. Of the choices you listed, the SIG P226 would be my hands down first choice.

My father bought a NIB Beretta 92FS. Very nice pistol, but it isn't as comfortable to shoot or carry as the SIG. Doesn't feel as good in my medium sized hands. And it's bulkier. Seems like this is way too big of a gun to be 9mm. That being said, the gun is the work of true masters. The slide, lockup and trigger are extremely smooth. I'm not a fan of the slide mounted safety, but have another brand of pistol with that safety on my hip as I write this (so I've learned to adapt to it). My Dad's Beretta has suffered a few FTF's when it's been run without enough lubrication. Seems a bit more finicky that my SIG (which nothing seems to stop). The recoil isn't necessarily lighter than the SIG, but it's slower. You can feel the slide as it travels back, hits the limit and travels forward. Very distinct. But again, the SIG is just as mild -- the Beretta juts recoils slower IMHO.

My shooting bud has a full size HK USP .45 and it is another pistol that would stand up to extreme abuse. It is BIG, however, so be prepared for a looong DA trigger pull and a big lump on your side if you opt for IWB carry. The trigger pull of a polymer will never match a steel gun, so it seems "squishy" like Glocks. The Beretta and SIG has better trigger pulls, IMHO. It is extremely accurate and built like a tank. I've heard that the double stack mags can be hard on mag springs -- in fact, IIRC most all .45 double stacks have had this type of problem. So, put new springs in it every year. Unless you're a big guy (my shooting buddy is) this is probably more appropriate for a duty gun or dedicated home defense gun with attached light. If I were a troop in combat and could carry the pistol of choice in a drop holster, it would most likely be the HK USP .45 carried condition three. But for me it's too big for much else -- keep in mind that I'm a 1911 guy and my 1911 packs very nice IWB due to its thin steel design. [EDITTED to add one more thing. This pistol had a really distinctive recoil similar to the Beretta. It recoiled very slowly and not as sharply as a 1911. Very easy to keep on target. Would be a great LEO or Military duty gun.]

Between the SIG and the Beretta it's SIG all the way. The SEAL's ditched the Beretta and went with the SIG P226. From all that I've read they love them, except when they're dealing with marine environments in which case some choose a S&W 686 stainless steel revolver in .357 magnum.

The HK .45 is really in a different class -- and is certainly a very high quality, reliable pistol. If you're bent on a .45, go for it. But the better all around (i.e., you're a civilian who might need to CCW) gun is IMHO the SIG P226.

The light rail wouldn't be that big of an issue for me as I've already committed to learning techniques with a hand held light. Get the all around pistol first, then get the dedicated SHTF/bedside gun second.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide.

EDITED to add that if you'd like a DA/SA .45, consider the P220. It's the BMW of DA .45's IMO. I've shot a friends and it shoots remarkably similar to a good 1911, albeit with a DA first shot. I'd think that it would carry similar to a 1911 as well, though it's slightly thicker. And I've heard that they are very reliable (well, they're SIG's after all ) though I don't have any first hand experience in that.

But man, that little P226 of mine is a friggin outstanding little handgun. I sometimes seriously question why I'm carrying 1911's when I have that little gem. And 9mm v. .45 doesn't matter if the shooter does his/her job (COM, repeat as necessary).

Finally, a SIG is a very safe handgun, much more so than a Glock but I don't want to open that can of worms. Heck, I'd guess that most people carry their Beretta off safe anyway.

Sorry to get so long winded on my edit. Can you tell I like the P226?
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 5:31:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2002 5:36:24 AM EDT by Muad_Dib]
Wow. Lots of good comments here.

I went through this a few years ago and decided on the USP.45 Fullsize. I really like the SIGs but went with the HK for the following reasons.

Active Safety + Decocker This is what made me choose the USP over the SIG.

Easy variant changeoverIncluding an ambidextrous safety group.

Drop in trigger upgrades >> This is actually most peoples complaint about the USP. The factory trigger in the older pistols can be pretty bad at first. After lots of use, it gets better. If you hate it that much you can buy a factory match trigger set that makes the trigger pull about equal to the best SIG.

10 Rounds Klinton Mags and 12 round Standard Mags Standard mags are available no matter what you hear at HKpro.com. There is considerable question regarding the MK23 mags however. If you find 12 round factory mags that don't have any LEO/MIL markings they are perfectly legal to own and considered pre-ban. It's written directly into the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994.

Size is not an issue A lot of guys will tell you that the USP is friggin huge or whatever. The truth is that it's not much bigger than a 1911. Compare the factory specs and you'll see. It's black and square which causes it to look bigger than it actually is.

Accesory rail If you have the money to spend on accesories, or plan to in the future, this might come in handy.

You can get the USP in .40, 9mm, .357, and .45.

The "jagged" grip is supposed to be that way. I thought it might cause problems at first, but I'm actually glad it's as agressive as it is. When your fingers are frozen from cold, or wet, greasy, etc... you aren't going to want a pistol that slides around in your hand. I don't like the hogue grips. They move around.

If you have small hands or short fingers, the USP probably won't fit you unless you go with a Compact model.

BTW, the SEALs never were issued the USP. They were issued the MK23 which is MUCH MUCH bigger than the USP series. The MK23 is considered a primary offensive weapon in very specific situations.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 5:45:52 AM EDT
All three are extremely good guns and you can't really go wrong with any of them. The Sig and Beretta serve essentially the same purpose...that is, a 9mm caliber, high capacity service pistol built to military specs. Beretta is tougher under extreme conditions, Sig seems easier for most to shoot well and is tough enough except for the crappy metal finishes they use. (Some very good deals around on used 226's nowadays) You might also consider the 228, which is fairly concealable and will take your 226 mags just fine.

The H&K is a larger gun, but shoots a better personal defense cartridge. The 10rd. mags are available at reasonable prices and give up only 2rd. to the pre-ban / LEO mags...no prob...get another 10rd. mag and don't sweat it. Recoil is a non-issue with any full size service pistol in any caliber...9mm / .40 / or .45acp.

My choice...and I own all three...would be the USP first...but I am partial to the bigger bullet. You can also carry "cocked and locked" with the Version 1 which is the most common model. Doing this reduces the trigger reach to less than that of either of the 9mm's.

HK all the way.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 7:12:18 AM EDT
I might be seeing an HK USP .45 today. I'll have to compare it to my 1911 and see if my thoughts regarding it's size are accurate. I'll post my findings. I might even put a micrometer to it if the owner allows.

Keep in mind that I think the HK USP is an incredible handgun.

On a related note, Larry Vickers (anyone know who he is and what he does for a living?) did a sand test involving the HK USP .45, a custom 1911, a milspec 1911 and a G21. The HK was the top choice, followed by the 1911's. Mr. Vickers found the G21 to be very unreliable.

ikor:

Is this comment directed toward the finishes only, or are you aware of reliability problems with the P226? Just curious.


Originally posted by ikor:

Beretta is tougher under extreme conditions, Sig seems easier for most to shoot well and is tough enough except for the crappy metal finishes they use.

Link Posted: 8/9/2002 8:03:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By orange:
I'm probably going to get beat-up, but:

I own a Springfield .45 1911 and a 92FS and I love them both with all my heart - BUT - anyone who goes around telling you that a 9mm "doesn't have stopping power" or "is a .45 set on stun" is begging to get nailed by a few pops to the chest with a 9mm. I don't think they would keep saying it, because I guarantee you a 9mm is an effective stopping round, and it's going to hit where the shooter intended, namely HOME.

I've had my .45 jam on occasion, but my Beretta feeds, shoots, and functions flawlessly - it's a really nice sidearm, erm, I mean, pistol.

P.S. I do not actually want ANYONE on this board to get shot with a 9mm. Piece. I mean, Peace.



I REALLY DISAGREE WITH THIS. I don't want to get shot with anything... but... i worked EMS for several years. MANY times i had guys hit in the chest or back with 9mm walk up to the ambulance. In most cases they did not even fall down when hit. I never saw this with a .45 or a largre caliber handgun. They were always on the ground when we arrived.

Thoses experiences told me right there 9mm is NOT a good self defence round. Shot placement might be faster but i don't want to ave to pull the trigger 10 times and hope they fall down. A .45 may not get you a kill either but at least they WILL know they have been hit.

mike
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 8:15:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 9:35:56 AM EDT
Corey;

Yes, this comment was directed only at the Sig finishes. Sigs are extremely tough guns and extremely reliable as well...I have seen three with slide rails cracked...one with well over 50% of both rails flapping in the breeze...and none ever missed a beat, although as the rail cracks got worse, the point of impact did change and groups got much worse.

I shoot the Sig better than the Beretta and preferred to carry the 226 or 228 for hi-cap 9's, but in a go to destruct test, I would bet the Beretta would win over the Sig. Not a big fan of the 9mm, but they are reliable and can do the job with correct placement and good ammo.

Standard blued Sigs tend to rust if you look at them hard, and the blue wears off very quickly. Sig will refinish your slide in their K-Kote for about $60...may be more now...but it wears fast, too. The steel in their guns is as hard as "woodpecker lips" though, and they will shoot well and forever

No such thing as the "perfect" gun.

Link Posted: 8/9/2002 11:15:13 AM EDT
Okay, so I handled an HK USP .45 today over lunch hour. Turns out the trigger was better than I recalled. It is only marginally bigger than a 1911, but it's marginally bigger all over. No way I'd be able to conceal it. My shooting buddy wouldn't have any problem with it, though.



MALL NINJA SIGHTING AT THE RANGE TODAY! I saw someone flip out and cut a head off! It was totally cool -- the guitars were wailing!!!!
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 12:16:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2002 12:16:42 PM EDT by Muad_Dib]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
[(altho aren't HK's a little finicky about ammo selection?)



I've never heard this from anyone who actually owns a USP. I have heard stories of sombody's sister's, cousin's, girlfriend's, grampa's USP not feeding anything at all. The USP I own and shoot will feed anything you put in the mag. Let me repeat, ANYTHING from hardball to the widest ashtray you can find. I've bought some real garbage ammo that probably shouldn't have been shot and it fed just fine. 99.99% of the time I shoot Federal American Eagle.45 with zero problems.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 12:19:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corey:
My shooting buddy wouldn't have any problem with it, though.



He must be built like a giant. Is he a high speed/low drag kinda guy?




MALL NINJA SIGHTING AT THE RANGE TODAY! I saw someone flip out and cut a head off! It was totally cool -- the guitars were wailing!!!!


That sounds interesting. How did you manage to get out alive?
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 2:14:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Muad_Dib:

Originally Posted By Corey:
My shooting buddy wouldn't have any problem with it, though.



He must be built like a giant. Is he a high speed/low drag kinda guy?



He looks something kind'a like this:






MALL NINJA SIGHTING AT THE RANGE TODAY! I saw someone flip out and cut a head off! It was totally cool -- the guitars were wailing!!!!


That sounds interesting. How did you manage to get out alive?



I helped him pick up brass. Then I gave him a baby wipe to clean up with. Yeah, I was pretty lucky today!
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 2:49:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corey:
I helped him pick up brass. Then I gave him a baby wipe to clean up with. Yeah, I was pretty lucky today!



Hmm... My wife says that pic looks like me as a kid.

So he cleaned up with a baby wipe huh? He must be a real badass.

I wonder how long I can keep this up.

This does bring up another point. If you shoot a USP you'll look like a total badass on the range. The chicks come running, the badguys shit themselves and fall down, and the money falls from the sky. All seems right in the world when a USP is in your hand.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 2:53:41 PM EDT
I just realized that I put four icons in my last post. I think that might be a personal record.
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 5:56:40 PM EDT
Here's the 10,000 round Sig P220 test.


http://www.galleryofguns.com/ShootingTimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=1230
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 6:35:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By orange:
I'm probably going to get beat-up, but:

I own a Springfield .45 1911 and a 92FS and I love them both with all my heart - BUT - anyone who goes around telling you that a 9mm "doesn't have stopping power" or "is a .45 set on stun" is begging to get nailed by a few pops to the chest with a 9mm. I don't think they would keep saying it, because I guarantee you a 9mm is an effective stopping round, and it's going to hit where the shooter intended, namely HOME.

I've had my .45 jam on occasion, but my Beretta feeds, shoots, and functions flawlessly - it's a really nice sidearm, erm, I mean, pistol.

P.S. I do not actually want ANYONE on this board to get shot with a 9mm. Piece. I mean, Peace.



I REALLY DISAGREE WITH THIS. I don't want to get shot with anything... but... i worked EMS for several years. MANY times i had guys hit in the chest or back with 9mm walk up to the ambulance. In most cases they did not even fall down when hit. I never saw this with a .45 or a largre caliber handgun. They were always on the ground when we arrived.

Thoses experiences told me right there 9mm is NOT a good self defence round. Shot placement might be faster but i don't want to ave to pull the trigger 10 times and hope they fall down. A .45 may not get you a kill either but at least they WILL know they have been hit.

mike



Well, you say you've seen it, and I haven't, so I can't dismiss what you're saying - and I agree that it would take a big big man to stand through any .45 on target - but I still maintain that 9mm is effective when used properly and by someone with enough practice.

Also, when maxinmum knockdown/disablement is the goal, 9mm hollows will help turn that penetration energy into impact energy and damn I don't think I would keep standing
Link Posted: 8/9/2002 7:41:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2002 7:48:52 PM EDT by Corey]
I love my 1911.

But sometimes I wonder "Why the heck aren't I shooting a SIG?"

Heck, with the 1911 I have, I could sell it, buy a P220 with full Alessi rig, and then pop for a Colt milspec.

I dunno.... The factory finally has my 1911 dialed in (after a few problems).

After shooting a P220 a few months ago, I really have to say that I was extremely impressed. The only difference between this and the high end 1911 I own was the first DA shot (which was very smooth) and higher bore axis (which, as is typical for SIG's, had no effect on perceived recoil).

So, here's what you should do:

1. Handle both a P220 (some come with a light rail) and an HK USP .45. Buy whichever one fits your hand best as your first gun.

2. For your second gun, either buy the compact .45 model of the handgun chosen in #1 or one of the 9mm siblings. If you're bent on a P226 at some point, get a P220 in number one. Otherwise, if you're not and the .45 USP feels better, get it and then the 9mm USP. Don't worry so much about the mags. The 10 rounders are great practice mags and can do in a pinch. I'd worry more about common training between you're different guns.

Beretta just doesn't allow you to expand your line of firearms like HK and SIG do. I'd stick with one type of firearm, even if the mags don't interchange. That way, when you pick up your USP .45 and USP 9mm, there's no difference in operating systems. Remember how important muscle memory is?

Get a set of HK's or a set of SIG's and don't look back.

Good luck, and show us the pic's when you get something!

EDITED to add that I always think of something after posting. Particularly like the fact that SIG's might be more friendly to your use of mags in other SIG guns. For instance, the SIG P220 mags will fit and fire in the P245. The SIG P226 mags will work in the P228/P229. I don't think that the HK's allow this as their compacts, IIRC, have a slimmer grip and taken entirely different mags.

HTH
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