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Posted: 7/21/2002 7:52:58 PM EDT
The Associated Press


LONDON (July 21, 2002 7:55 a.m. EDT) - An official inquiry into the fault-prone assault rifle used by British troops in Afghanistan has blamed soldiers for not cleaning and maintaining the weapon correctly, a newspaper reported Sunday.

www.nandotimes.com/world/story/473044p-3781450c.html
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 8:06:41 PM EDT
Interesting..........wonder what would replace the modified SA-80 ??
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 8:18:04 PM EDT
My bet is the G-36. But they will never give up on the SA-80, it's a national pride thing. "World powers make their own rifles" thinking.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 8:18:10 PM EDT
Only the Limeys would send out their troops with a POS like that. Hell, I've run 2k thru my AR Bushmaster without touching it in the dirty & dusty Arizona desert without a hitch ! I have carried my Bushmaster thru snow & freezing rain for a week hunting and never had a problem . Has anyone had failures with their AR from not cleaning them like the Britts claim you have to clean their POS rifle ?
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 9:03:51 PM EDT
I have not heard one good thing about the SA-80, or L-85, or whatever they call it.

Robust? The receiver is stamped out of 1mm sheet metal. The barrel is sweated into the receiver (not pinned or screwed), and can actually detach from the receiver.

Supposedly, they're all being re-built by HK into something useable.



Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:49:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By blackmanta:

Supposedly, they're all being re-built by HK into something useable.







Already been and done.

I heard that before they did the update, HK told the limeys to buy G36's or M16's rather then update the SA-80.

Our friends over at Janes' think the Limeys will replace it with the G36.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:25:04 AM EDT
They spend 92 million £ on the refit and now blame the Royal Marines rather than admit tha it is a POS rifle.

They could have gotten the C-5s for £ 80 millions and use the extra£ 12 million to buy Elcans.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 5:07:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By blackmanta:

Supposedly, they're all being re-built by HK into something useable.







Already been and done.

I heard that before they did the update, HK told the limeys to buy G36's or M16's rather then update the SA-80.

Our friends over at Janes' think the Limeys will replace it with the G36.



Spade, thanks for the link. Didn't know these folks had a free web site. (At least some portion is free.)
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 3:40:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 4:59:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sniper1az:
Only the Limeys would send out their troops with a POS like that.



Excuse me Vietnam? M-16's?

There are long traditions of US troops going to war armed with crap.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 7:03:56 PM EDT
I'll never understand their love-affair with those stupid bullpups. Ignoring everything else thats wrong with the SA80, you still have a POS bullpup.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 7:28:05 PM EDT
Does this means we are going to set L85 parts soon? Or does this means that Toadie is going to build a post ban hatchet job on this rifle?
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 8:46:02 PM EDT
I actually wouldn't mind having a semi-only one if when the parts kits become avalible. They look neat, and for their reliablity problems they probally wouldn't be too bad a plinker or range gun. Plus it'd be more variety to a collection heavy in AR varients.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 10:48:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:

Originally Posted By sniper1az:
Only the Limeys would send out their troops with a POS like that.



Excuse me Vietnam? M-16's?

There are long traditions of US troops going to war armed with crap.



We came out of WWI with the 03.
We went into WWII with the 03 and came out with the Garand.
We went into Korea with the Garand and came out with the Garand.
We went into Vietnam with the Garand and came out with the M16.

I don't of many weapons systems that are over 35 years old and still cutting edge.

It's time to for a change.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:03:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By SS109:

Originally Posted By sniper1az:
Only the Limeys would send out their troops with a POS like that.



Excuse me Vietnam? M-16's?

There are long traditions of US troops going to war armed with crap.



We came out of WWI with the 03.
We went into WWII with the 03 and came out with the Garand.
We went into Korea with the Garand and came out with the Garand.
We went into Vietnam with the Garand and came out with the M16.

I don't of many weapons systems that are over 35 years old and still cutting edge.

It's time to for a change.


I think the M14 enters into the picture sometime during Viet Nam.

I think the Brits should just swallow their national pride and get a Austrian Steyr AUG or the French FAMAS if they are anarmored by the bullpup concept.
Link Posted: 7/22/2002 11:34:42 PM EDT
Interesting that it has reliability issues, given that it uses the AR180 gas piston design.

The G36 would be a good alternative. I'd get one now if I could. But, alas - I'm just a peon.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 1:29:35 AM EDT
I miss my SA80.

I have nothing to prop that fussy window in the back of the house up with anymore.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 2:39:56 AM EDT
Did anyone read that article in Jane's?

This is funny-

"...bits fell off when least expected, including the magazine during firing."


That would suck to be in the shit, and have bits of your gun fall apart.

It's sad, but I'm glad to see that we're not the only country who's politicians think they can run war better than soldiers...
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 4:58:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By SS109:

Originally Posted By sniper1az:
Only the Limeys would send out their troops with a POS like that.



Excuse me Vietnam? M-16's?

There are long traditions of US troops going to war armed with crap.



We came out of WWI with the 03.
We went into WWII with the 03 and came out with the Garand.
We went into Korea with the Garand and came out with the Garand.
We went into Vietnam with the Garand and came out with the M16.

I don't of many weapons systems that are over 35 years old and still cutting edge.

It's time to for a change.


I think the M14 enters into the picture sometime during Viet Nam.

I think the Brits should just swallow their national pride and get a Austrian Steyr AUG or the French FAMAS if they are anarmored by the bullpup concept.



You're right about the M-14. It was used for a fairly short time and I couldn't think of where to place it.

The Brits may swallow their national pride but they'll never buy a Frog weapon ! (Even if they should.)
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 6:19:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:

The Brits haven't designed a decent gun since the Enfield bolt rifles. And they used to be a leader in the field. Very sad.

-Troy



Unfortunately, the brits didn't design the Lee - Enfield. An American by the name of (I think) James Paris Lee took his design to Britain after he failed to market the design to the U.S. (I think we chose the Krag instead, but I could be off by a couple years). The Enfield portion of the name came after they switched rifling styles from the Lee - Metford (Metford style rifling) to the Enfield style rifling with the adoption of smokeless powder.

Kent

P.S. Double check your history book before quoting this as gospel. Its pretty close though.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 9:53:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Armed_Scientist:
My bet is the G-36. But they will never give up on the SA-80, it's a national pride thing. "World powers make their own rifles" thinking.



This is the first British designed weapon they've used in like 150 years.

The Martini-Henry was Norwegian and Dutch IIRC.

The Lee-Enfield was an American design.

The L1A1 was Belgian.

The Bren and all of its premutations were Czech.



The British haven't produced an entirely British weapon that was worth a damn since the demise of frontloaders.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 10:10:13 AM EDT
I'd love to have an SA-80 in my collection.

But I'd hate to have to depend on it as my only rifle.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 10:11:45 AM EDT
Redmanfms: "This is the first British designed weapon they've used in like 150 years.

The Martini-Henry was Norwegian and Dutch IIRC.
The Lee-Enfield was an American design.
The L1A1 was Belgian.
The Bren and all of its premutations were Czech.

The British haven't produced an entirely British weapon that was worth a damn since the demise of frontloaders. "

You forgot the Lewis gun (American)
Where does the Sterling smg fall? Webley revolvers?

Link Posted: 7/23/2002 10:53:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tatjana:
I miss my SA80.

I have nothing to prop that fussy window in the back of the house up with anymore.



Buy an airsoft replica SA80. It is cheap.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 11:27:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2002 11:28:42 AM EDT by --BATMAN--]
From www.hkpro.com and vicariously, the London Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;$sessionid$JCP0U0IAAKSVVQFIQMGCFFWAVCBQ­UIV0?xml=/news/2002/07/22/nrifl22.xml&_requestid=436441


My favorite part:
-----------------------------------------------
A demonstration by a company of Marines returning from a mission showed a third of the companies' rifles, between 30 and 40, not working properly.

The Marines were told to treat their return to Bagram by Chinook helicopter as a landing in a hostile environment. The whole exercise was filmed.

As the helicopters landed at Bagram, throwing up a huge dust cloud, the Marines poured out of the helicopters and ran to the firing range to fire their weapons.

Problems they encountered ranged from stoppages caused by dust in the rifle's working parts to magazines falling off. Even those who managed to fire their rifles had to work hard to get the safety catches off.

There was a stand-up row at a meeting in the MoD last week when a senior Army officer accused the Marines of causing the stoppages by not keeping their weapons clean.

Royal Marines officers dismissed the claim, saying that the modified weapon was too high-maintenance and they had been forced to clean it as often as five times a day.

One said: "If you're jumping out of a Chinook into that kind of heat and dust, it wouldn't matter how clean the rifle was beforehand. The minute you got off, it would be covered in shit."
------------------------------------------------
Whats up with the safety catches? Could they really be THAT poorly designed even after a rework by HK? WTF over?
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 12:51:05 PM EDT
They would be much better off with G36 rifles or C7's.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:22:15 PM EDT
The Regiment ( 22 SAS ) is already getting this ones to replace the M16 a1s and 203s they had for donkey's years



TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS

SFW without sight, bipod and sling, with empty magazine
3.6 kg (7.94 lbs)

- C79 Optical Sight
0.7 kg (1.5 lb)

- Magazine 30 rd.
0.1 kg (.26 lbs)

- Magazine 100 rd. (optional)
0.9 (2 lbs)

SFW Complete w/ optical sight and 30 rd. magazine
4.4 kg (9.7 lbs)

Overall Length (stock fully retracted)
80 cm (31.5 in.)

Overall Length (stock fully extended)
88 cm (34.6 in.)

Muzzle Velocity
(approx.) 890 m/s (2920 fps)

Range

- Maximum
2800 M (3280 yd)

- Maximum Effective (Iron Sights)
500 M (547 yd)

- Maximum Effective (Optical Sights)
800 M (875 yd)

Firing Modes Standard
Safe/Semi/Automatic/Full-Automatic

Calibre
5.56 X 45 mm NATO (0.223 in.)

Barrel Length (with flash suppressor)
43 cm (16.9 in.)

Barrel Length
41 cm (16.1 in.)

Manufacturing Process
Hammer Forged rifling with integral forged chamber

Number of Grooves
6

Pitch of Rifling
1 turn in 17.8 cm (7 in.)

Direction of Twist
Right Hand

Ammunition
5.56 X 45 mm NATO (0.223 in.)

Magazine Capacity (standard)
30 rounds

Interchangeability:

Weapons magazines accepted
L85A1/L86A1 (NATO - UK) AR70/90 (NATO - Italy) CETME L (NATO - Spain) M16 (NATO - USA)

Funny how they went for a 16.1 inch heavy barrel.


I think that since BAE has interests in HK they might be planning a change over to the G 36 as many UK SWAT teams have, but the MOD has no plans to replace the SA80A2.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:28:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SS109:

Originally Posted By sniper1az:
Only the Limeys would send out their troops with a POS like that.



Excuse me Vietnam? M-16's?

There are long traditions of US troops going to war armed with crap.



It appears this tradition is continuing today with the M4's 14.5" barrel coupled with the SS109.

Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:39:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Troy:
The Brits haven't designed a decent gun since the Enfield bolt rifles. And they used to be a leader in the field. Very sad.

Can you spell Accuracy International? Beat the shit out of the issued sniper rifles over here.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:47:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ariel:
The Regiment ( 22 SAS ) is already getting this ones to replace the M16 a1s and 203s they had for donkey's years...

I met some SAS in Bosnia and they carried the L85 without the SUSAT. The only reason they carried the L85's was so that they would look like "ordinary" British troops.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 3:56:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By skullworks:
I met some SAS in Bosnia and they carried the L85 without the SUSAT. The only reason they carried the L85's was so that they would look like "ordinary" British troops.



You can bet that they were ditching them for HK 53s at the first sign of any drama.
Link Posted: 7/23/2002 4:52:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ariel:

Originally Posted By skullworks:
I met some SAS in Bosnia and they carried the L85 without the SUSAT. The only reason they carried the L85's was so that they would look like "ordinary" British troops.



You can bet that they were ditching them for HK 53s at the first sign of any drama.

Well, actually no (yes, if they had a choice, but in this case no.) They rolled their Land Rover a few miles from our camp, and we went out to tow them back to us. There were only the five guys and their L85's and Bergens.

Of course this was during the U.S. "invasion", so the risk of being shot at was significantly lower than just a few weeks earlier. Just a few weeks earlier these guys would not have travelled the way they did when they rolled.

Real nice blokes though, that's always great when you run into these kind of professionals - there's absolutely no attitude whatsoever. But then again we were respectful enough not to act as fan boys, we just said hi and did the usual chatter, but there was no talk of shop.
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