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Posted: 6/9/2002 4:29:44 AM EDT
First of all I'm not trying to start a pissing contest or offend anyone, but has anyone noticed the new trend of people who say they want a SHTF rifle, bugout gun, or whatever and then tack every do-dad, trinket, or gadget they can find on it? I realize that I'm old school and started shooting in the early 1980's, and read articles in the old SWAT magazine by Chuck Taylor, Eric Strahl, and Jeff Cooper. I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. principal, especially when it comes to a combat rifle. Just my 2 cents worth.
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 4:32:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/9/2002 5:59:45 AM EDT
I think it has to do with how long you have been shooting and experience. I too grew up shooting since the early 80's. I read the same articles you did. The latect articles push the swiss army rifle concept. I think that watching too many John Woo movies also tends to make people want to add 15 pounds on a 6 pound rifle. John woo movies also tend to make people want to shoot 2 pistols while jumping over car hoods and things like that.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 8:55:56 AM EDT
AMEN, Scottfn308.

In the last rifle class is took, I was the only one with a plain CAR-15 with a plain silent sling.

One guy had every possible accessory he could get on his rifle. Needless to say he was complaining about the weight of his gun by lunch.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 8:58:16 AM EDT
Something about the Elegance of Simplicity.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:33:44 AM EDT
WHERE's the LAFF button ???

"... I realize that I'm old school and started shooting in the early 1980's..."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha [:D} "old school"

old school to me is early 1950's !!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 12:01:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 12:02:45 PM EDT by 1911greg]
more crap you put on your gun makes more stuff to go wrong like those red dots they maybe cool and fast but my old iron sites will never run out of batterys.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:04:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
more crap you put on your gun makes more stuff to go wrong like those red dots they maybe cool and fast but my old iron sites will never run out of batterys.



Bad example. First off, the newer Aimpoint batteries last for so long that you'll go for YEARS without replacing them.
Second, if you go to the range as often as you should, you'll know when the batteries need changing before you NEED them.
Third, the red dot sights are VERY VERY useful. There have been days when I have gone to the range and because of allergies or lack of sleep my eyes are so scratchy and watery that I wouldn't have been able to hit crap with iron sights and I can still nail the bullseye at 100 meters with the red dot without hardly trying.

I think too many people assume they are "old-school" or "practical" because they reject any add-ons out of hand. Personally, I think they are being pretentious and closed-minded.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:26:03 PM EDT
I tend to agree with RikWriter regarding the red-dot sights. I don't consider them to be gadgets, but practical sighting devices. While I still prefer old-fashioned iron sights, I can see the advantages of a red-dot in some circumstances.

In contrast, lasers may have a certain "coolness" factor, but they really are limited in practicality. That's why I consider them to be gadgets or toys.

I also think that flashlights mounted on pistols are a generally stupid idea. You've got two hands, use them. Why would you want to give a BG a perfect place to aim? Hold your light off to your side with your weak hand and shoot with your strong hand.

Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:31:28 PM EDT
OK I will do a short list of stupid stuff to mount on a AR-15 and see what happens.

Flashlights
Vertical Forward Grips
Lasers
Fixed Telescoping Style Stocks
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:34:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
I also think that flashlights mounted on pistols are a generally stupid idea. You've got two hands, use them. Why would you want to give a BG a perfect place to aim? Hold your light off to your side with your weak hand and shoot with your strong hand.


I don't know of any legitimate Low Light shooting instructors who promote this technique.

I've been taught the Harries technique, the Chapman technique, and the Rogers technique. But never the RETARD technique.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:37:35 PM EDT
The battlefield of the future will be littered with the bodies of dead batteries.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:45:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Supershooter:
OK I will do a short list of stupid stuff to mount on a AR-15 and see what happens.

Flashlights
Vertical Forward Grips
Lasers
Fixed Telescoping Style Stocks



For flashlights and foregrips (and to a lesser extent, lasers), I can see valid CQB uses for them. After firing an AUG, I can see the utility of a vertical foeegrip.

But a fixed telestock? No use whtoever, cept maybe if it were lighter than a full A2 stock...
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:58:53 PM EDT
IMHO lasers are possibly useful, but mostly in the configuration of an infrared laser combined with a night vision device. Even then, a red dot sight would be more useful at least in my opinion.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:07:32 PM EDT
Fixed telescopic stocks are a joke. They cheat you out of the storage of the regular stock and add no additional function. You can't even pound in someone's head with one nearly as well as the standard one. Maybe a weight advantage, dunno.

A red dot sight on a see-thru mount isn't a gadget, it's a life saver.

Gadgets are, in my book, something almost useless and/or not dependable. A laser has marginal use for me but others may like them. The only thing I want on mine is a red dot sight, an attachment for a good flashlight,,, but I'm only attaching that when I really need it.

I started shooting back in the 60s but don't necessarily consider that "old school". Maybe old fart.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:11:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By Yankee1911:
I also think that flashlights mounted on pistols are a generally stupid idea. You've got two hands, use them. Why would you want to give a BG a perfect place to aim? Hold your light off to your side with your weak hand and shoot with your strong hand.


I don't know of any legitimate Low Light shooting instructors who promote this technique.

I've been taught the Harries technique, the Chapman technique, and the Rogers technique. But never the RETARD technique.



Sorry. Bad description. I was thinking of the Harries Technique. I guess I missed my point. I wasn't inferring that you should stand with your arms stretched out like a "RETARD".

Now, if you'd be so kind as to describe the jackass technique...you seem to be an expert.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:20:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Supershooter:
OK I will do a short list of stupid stuff to mount on a AR-15 and see what happens.

Flashlights


Always handy when you wake up in the middle of the night and need to get to the fridge to get a quick snack. I mean hey, I get to practice my CQB-skills between my bedroom and kitchen (all of 10 ft)!
All kidding aside, I do own a SureFire flashlight that I bought back in '93 when I actually wore a uniform and had a use for such things, but as a civilian I have no need to mount one on any of my firearms. I live in an apartment, I know my way around with my eyes closed and if I thought I had uninvited company I might as well leave the light off until the dust settles.


Vertical Forward Grips

Un a full-auto, sure. On a semi? Well, maybe if you have three different red-dot sight, couple of lasers and a coffee machine attached to your forend...


Lasers

I prefer my Aimpoint.


Fixed Telescoping Style Stocks

Hey, let's put something that will snag on my clothes at the end of my rifle instead of a nice smooth no-snag surface.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:25:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
I don't know of any legitimate Low Light shooting instructors who promote this technique.

I've been taught the Harries technique, the Chapman technique, and the Rogers technique. But never the RETARD technique.

As I recall this was a standard technique used by many police departments way back when. So it's not completely unfounded. Usually this technique was used when there wasn't a need for support of the strong hand holding the sidearm.
But sure, techniques have improved since.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:30:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CactusJack:
WHERE's the LAFF button ???

"... I realize that I'm old school and started shooting in the early 1980's..."

Ha ha ha ha ha ha [:D} "old school"

old school to me is early 1950's !!!!!!!!



Hey!! 50's is not so old...
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:31:57 PM EDT
Yes, you can hang too much stuff on an AR.

However a simple tac light and a low power scope or dot sight will help most people acheive better hits, especially at night.

Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:37:05 PM EDT
I get the impression that the buyers of these "gadgets" fall under two categories:

1) Cool guys. How many threads here focus upon how "cool" something looks? Similar threads focus on "what is the best. . . ?" Lots of photos of crazy looking rifles that are unscratched, unmarrred, apparently unused. Reminds me of the cars I see on the road with the aftermarket air spoilers and underbody kits. Look cool, but help little (if not harm) the performance. I think that this approach is most obvious in the "What pistol will fit my hand the best?" type threads. People see a press photo of a GI and want to look like him. An article in "Sweet Tactical Weapons" leads to a variety of threads asking about some kewl looking rail or grip or whatever.

2) This second group is made up, I think, of shooters who lack fundamental shooting skills. I see the parallels in golf, another sport that requires skill, but is also filled with little trinkets and gadgets that are guaranteed to improve one's game. If one hasn't got the fundamentals, then no new kevlar club will compensate.

Look at the toothbrush market: every few months, there is the release of a new toothbrush that promises better brushing. Better grip, more flexibility in key areas, advanced bristle materials. . . I wonder if the guys who are so seduced by all of the new AR15 gear are the same ones that make this kind of marketing so profitable for Oral-B.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:39:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Supershooter:
OK I will do a short list of stupid stuff to mount on a AR-15 and see what happens.

Flashlights



Short answer: Target identification.

Long Answer: Weapon mounted lights allow you to locate your target, positively identify the target, impare your targets night vision, and achieve good hits. It is generally not a good idea to kill your partners or family memebrs, so target identification is very important. Of course if your AR is limited to gun games and other general range use disregaurd my comments.

Add ons that I think are stupid:
Lead buttstock weights.
Lead Handguard Weights.
"Match" Triggers.
"NM" sights.
Leather slings.
Muzzle Brakes.
Heavy Brls.
Redi-mag.
Brass catchers.
Any optic above 4X.
Anthing that makes the rifle weigh more but doesnt significantly add to the users ability to kill bad guys.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:41:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IMHO:
I get the impression that the buyers of these "gadgets" fall under two categories:

1) Cool guys. How many threads here focus upon how "cool" something looks? Similar threads focus on "what is the best. . . ?" Lots of photos of crazy looking rifles that are unscratched, unmarrred, apparently unused. Reminds me of the cars I see on the road with the aftermarket air spoilers and underbody kits. Look cool, but help little (if not harm) the performance. I think that this approach is most obvious in the "What pistol will fit my hand the best?" type threads. People see a press photo of a GI and want to look like him. An article in "Sweet Tactical Weapons" leads to a variety of threads asking about some kewl looking rail or grip or whatever.

2) This second group is made up, I think, of shooters who lack fundamental shooting skills. I see the parallels in golf, another sport that requires skill, but is also filled with little trinkets and gadgets that are guaranteed to improve one's game. If one hasn't got the fundamentals, then no new kevlar club will compensate.



Oops, you left off
3)Those that disagree with you about the utility of certain devices but lack neither skill nor perspective.

But I know it's hard to be objective. Much easier to just categorize anyone with whom you disagree in a dismissive or pejorative pigeon-hole.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:43:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IMHO:
I get the impression that the buyers of these "gadgets" fall under two categories:



You also forgot about the significant number of active duty and reserve military folks here, plus the equal numbers of full time and reserve peace officers who carry an AR type rifle at work every day.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:44:49 PM EDT
Also, I think that the number of people who look at their AR as a battle rifle is extremely limited.

Look at the vast majority of photos of the rifles that appear on these pages. No scratches, no marring, no signs of use. Yes, I understand that the price of the gun means that few will deliberately abuse the appearance of the gun, but how often do we see questions about ways to remove the brass from the deflector?

Support for this idea comes from the number of people who train their rifles to hit the bullseye at 100 yards. Yes, I understand that this is a standard distance at the local range, but it appears that very few are aware of the rationale behind the A2 sights. By zeroing at 100 yards, the functionality of the sight is ignored. A look at ammo manufacturer ballistics tables doesn't support the 100 yard zero either, and I have reason to doubt that many take the time to calculate the bullet path and rise above/fall below the muzzle at any other distance. Highpower shooters excepted, of course.

I think that people want a cool looking rifle to show to their buddies, to polish, and to take to the range; not a battle rifle, all "SHTF" discussion aside. . .
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:46:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By IMHO:
I get the impression that the buyers of these "gadgets" fall under two categories:



You also forgot about the significant number of active duty and reserve military folks here, plus the equal numbers of full time and reserve peace officers who carry an AR type rifle at work every day.



You're right, I did. Wasn't thinking about them.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:48:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By IMHO:
I get the impression that the buyers of these "gadgets" fall under two categories:

1) Cool guys. How many threads here focus upon how "cool" something looks? Similar threads focus on "what is the best. . . ?" Lots of photos of crazy looking rifles that are unscratched, unmarrred, apparently unused. Reminds me of the cars I see on the road with the aftermarket air spoilers and underbody kits. Look cool, but help little (if not harm) the performance. I think that this approach is most obvious in the "What pistol will fit my hand the best?" type threads. People see a press photo of a GI and want to look like him. An article in "Sweet Tactical Weapons" leads to a variety of threads asking about some kewl looking rail or grip or whatever.

2) This second group is made up, I think, of shooters who lack fundamental shooting skills. I see the parallels in golf, another sport that requires skill, but is also filled with little trinkets and gadgets that are guaranteed to improve one's game. If one hasn't got the fundamentals, then no new kevlar club will compensate.



Oops, you left off
3)Those that disagree with you about the utility of certain devices but lack neither skill nor perspective.

But I know it's hard to be objective. Much easier to just categorize anyone with whom you disagree in a dismissive or pejorative pigeon-hole.



Easy there buddy. . . just an impression, just an impression. . .
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:51:18 PM EDT
Same reason men hotrod cars, we like to build things and pretend we can make them better than another man's toy. And sometimes we succeed...

I am VERY guilty of making Christmas trees out of my guns, but if it came down to it, I would have no problem ditching the doodads.

As far as particular gadgets,
Lasers: not my thing, had a Surefire, but it was an overpriced toy I used to piss off the dog, so I got rid of it.
NVDs and IR lasers: Toys for the wealthy, good for stalking the cat around the house at night, but I don't have any (nor do I have a cat) so I can't speak from experience.
Fixed collaspible stocks: don't have a preban, but I assume these are just for looks.
Real coll. stocks: great for heavy clothing, body armor, or for folks with short arms. Also stores a little easier.
KAC rails and foregrips: very useful to attach more gizmos, and the foregrip feels 'natural' to MY particular shooting style.
Flashlights: very important if you even wake up in the dark to a loud noise.
Reddots: I prefer irons, but with a good backup rear sight, they can only help, especially in lowlight.

Anyway, in closing, people should use what they feel comfortable with. It's only a better setup vs the next guy if you are proficient with it. The most important 'gadget' is practice! Practice with what you got, and practice without it, in case it breaks...
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:54:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HKocher:
Anyway, in closing, people should use what they feel comfortable with. It's only a better setup vs the next guy if you are proficient with it. The most important 'gadget' is practice! Practice with what you got, and practice without it, in case it breaks...



A good point. How often I see a post like, "I put this new so-and-so gadget on my rifle. It's awesome! It's so sweet! It looks so tactical! It works great! Haven't shot it yet. . . "
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 2:58:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By Supershooter:
OK I will do a short list of stupid stuff to mount on a AR-15 and see what happens.

Flashlights



Short answer: Target identification.

Long Answer: Weapon mounted lights allow you to locate your target, positively identify the target, impare your targets night vision, and achieve good hits. It is generally not a good idea to kill your partners or family memebrs, so target identification is very important. Of course if your AR is limited to gun games and other general range use disregaurd my comments.

Add ons that I think are stupid:
Lead buttstock weights.
Lead Handguard Weights.
"Match" Triggers.
"NM" sights.
Leather slings.
Muzzle Brakes.
Heavy Brls.
Redi-mag.
Brass catchers.
Any optic above 4X.
Anthing that makes the rifle weigh more but doesnt significantly add to the users ability to kill bad guys.



Except for the Brass Catcher all the items on your list is targeted at competition shooters and they have their place there.
The stuff on my list was intended at the Arm Chair Commandos.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 3:16:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Supershooter:
OK I will do a short list of stupid stuff to mount on a AR-15 and see what happens. . .

Fixed Telescoping Style Stocks



The most obvious example of "gear" that serves no purpose. Must have some appeal, though, because the AR15.com LEGP #1 was fitted with one.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 3:20:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IMHO:

Originally Posted By Supershooter:
OK I will do a short list of stupid stuff to mount on a AR-15 and see what happens. . .

Fixed Telescoping Style Stocks



The most obvious example of "gear" that serves no purpose.



Weighs nearly a pound less than an A2 stock. Usefull if you desire the lightest weight possible. Personally i find them uncomfortable, so i'll settle for the extra weight of the M16 or M16A1 stock, but never the M16A2 stock which is too long for most shooters in any position except the prone.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 7:36:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/23/2002 7:44:25 PM EDT by HKocher]

Originally Posted By Supershooter:

The stuff on my list was intended at the Arm Chair Commandos.




I don't take offense from your opinion but why do you consider someone an 'Arm Chair Commando' for wanting a flashlight for target identification in low light situations? I assume you aren't calling LEs armchair commandos, but how about someone who would use an AR for home defense or someone who might live in a rural environment with little light or backup in sight? Surely you see the benefit of a light on a weapon, as opposed to fumbling for a second object and wasting your supporting hand to hold that flashlight.

As far as vert. grips, again I feel comfortable with that setup, so that is my preference since I see no downside to it.

I still don't understand why folks would look down on another man's rifle setup. As long as it works for him, so be it. Just because YOU don't see it as a aid, does not make it unnecessary, nor does it make the user some sort of wannabe warrior.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 7:41:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HKocher:

Originally Posted By Supershooter:

The stuff on my list was intended at the Arm Chair Commandos.




I don't take offense from your opinion but why do you consider someone an 'Arm Chair Commando' for wanting something for target identification in low light situations? I assume you aren't calling LEs armchair commandos, but how about someone who would use an AR for home defense or someone who might live in a rural environment with little light or backup in sight?

As far as vert. grips, again I feel comfortable with that setup, so that is my preference since I see no downside to it.

I still don't understand why folks would look down on another man's rifle setup. As long as it works for him, so be it. Just because YOU don't see it as a aid, does not make it unnecessary, nor does it make the user some sort of wannabe warrior.



Guess what the light on the rifle makes you the target!
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 7:46:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Supershooter:

Guess what the light on the rifle makes you the target!



Not if you are using it appropriately, that's what a momentary switch is for.

The biggest factor though, as I said, is target identification. It's better to light up your target and know you have a good clean shot, instead of shooting an inappropriate target.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 7:48:18 PM EDT
i have a Nokia attached to my handguards. so the wife can call me when its dinner time. sweeeet!
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 8:20:57 PM EDT
I'm waiting for a GPS in the stock.
Would be the ultimate upgrade from the Red Rider BB Gun.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:08:37 PM EDT
At least lasers, flashlights, and optic sights have SOME sort of use.

But a non-telescoping collapsable stock?

Yeesh!

Link Posted: 6/23/2002 9:41:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Supershooter:
I'm waiting for a GPS in the stock.
Would be the ultimate upgrade from the Red Rider BB Gun.



In Tom Clancy's book MARINE, it says that one of the Commandants of the Corps, wanted every grunt to have one in the butt of his '16.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 5:31:32 AM EDT
I caught the "gadget" fever when I first started building my M4 clone. But decided I could never afford all that "neat" stuff, and the wife kept saying "but your not Special Ops, do you really need that!". Just purchased a A3 carry handle and sold the Red dot and #38 Arms rail I had mounted. I figure a SHTF rifle should be simple with the least amount of things to go wrong. I was some how put at ease inside after zeroing that A3 handle, I knew those sights would not let me down. Also ditched the tac sling and returned to the basic silent sling. My rifle is now in the configuration Uncle Sammy trained me with, and I feel the most comfortable with. But to each his own!
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 1:57:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 1:59:05 PM EDT by MurderSHO45]
I'm waiting for a PC in my buttstock, so when I have some down time in the field, I can sharpin my skills playing video games, it's so tactical bra.

Edit to add, LONG LIVE THE Fake M4 stock.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 5:00:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 5:03:25 PM EDT by GungHo]
I bought a Trijicon II Reflex red-dot for my AR carbine because it seemed cool at the time. I've gradually discovered that within the ranges a .223 carbine is useful for me, a red-dot is just fine. Besides, I'd already bought the sight and haven't had a decent offer for it and the ARMS #40.

I bought a Kobra red-dot for my AK because the irons suck.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 6:37:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/24/2002 6:39:21 PM EDT by gus]
If I only had one rifle, it would be the definition of simplicity. I have a bone stock 20" Bushmaster (except tritium front sight) just for a grab and go gun. I have more than one AR, however. And I'm getting ready to build one for NRA high power, which will have weights and NM trigger and sights, and other "doodads".
The only one I have that is gadgeted up is my LEGP, which is kind of a toy/show-off gun anyway. It has a RAS and foregrip, along with an Aimpoint. I DID swap out the fake tele stock for an A1 stock though....And even though it has a few accessories, it is still plenty functional. In certain conditions, I would say it is optimal.
If you like it and can afford it, who cares what others think? It's your money. BUT, it's still a good idea to have one for serious use, and that one should be simple.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:00:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gus:
If you like it and can afford it, who cares what others think? It's your money. BUT, it's still a good idea to have one for serious use, and that one should be simple.



very true.. i wish i could afford all those toys, if money isnt an issue, why not?? i want a tank sitting in my backyard if thats possible..
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 7:15:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HKocher:

Originally Posted By Supershooter:

Guess what the light on the rifle makes you the target!



Not if you are using it appropriately, that's what a momentary switch is for.

The biggest factor though, as I said, is target identification. It's better to light up your target and know you have a good clean shot, instead of shooting an inappropriate target.

Agreed 100%. Plus, with the power of the various lights designed for use on a weapon, if you light 'em up face-on you'll blind him for a few minutes at least. This will turn things in your favor in a hurry.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 8:04:23 PM EDT
I like things simple also. I found out first hand on how worthless a red dot scope is during a cold Winter day. Dead batteries galore.
Link Posted: 6/24/2002 11:22:41 PM EDT
Yeah, and what about those people that live in the city with the 4x4's? and all those people with sports cars? You can't go faster than the posted speed limit right?

What are you guys kidding me?

While agree it's stupid to make a 6 pound rifle 20 pounds with all the stuff hanging off of it, some of these gadgets do serve a purpose. If you just go to the range, sit at a bench, nice and comfy with the umbrella there to block the sun and squeeze off a round every 10 seconds or so and after 3 rounds go look through your spotting scope to see if the holes touch, then maybe I can see your point. You just have no clue. You're probably the same group of people who worry about brass marks on the deflector and/or have a preban sitting in your gun safe that you've never shot and never plan to shoot. Just like the rifle itself is a tool, there are tools that you call "gadgets" that help it perform better. You saying that there is no need for them is equivalent to the Anti's saying there is no need for "Assault Weapons."

Personally I think my carbine is simple, a Bushy M4, flattop, with an Aimpoint on a KAC offset mount, backed up by a KAC 600m flip up sight. She has Colt M4 handguards with the double shield and she weighs less than my AK shorty A2. Eventually I'll get a RAS, a Vert Grip and some sort of light in front because that's what I use when I train.
Link Posted: 6/25/2002 7:27:26 AM EDT
IMHO, if you are going to designate one of your weapons as your SHTF gun, then it seems to me that the best approach is to use the KISS rule (keep it simple, stupid), and learn to use it proficiently in that configuration. The more gadgets you load your SHTF weapon down with, the more cumbersome it becomes and the more you have on there to go wrong. It also makes sense to me that your SHTF weapon should be one that you can get lots of cheap ammo for, and that you can find parts for redily, so that you can keep some on hand for emergencies. All those gadgets might look good in the movies, but remember, once the scene is shot, the weapon goes back to the armourer.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 2:21:18 PM EDT
To some folk out there, a rifle is more than a practical tool: it's a hobby or part of a Walter Mitty fantasy. Sure, there are several guys out there that dress up and camo rifles, and never plan to ever drag them through the brush. I can tolerate that.

I used to laugh at the guys who dress up like Rambo or like mafia thugs with uzi's at gunshows, but if it keeps them from doing something stupid in the real world, who cares?
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 3:02:04 PM EDT
I thought that owning guns and stuff was suppose to be fun! If this is going to start making sense I'm out of here!

I own more guns than I need but not as many as I want. Looking at the ammount of ammo I own is starting to scare me!

I went to the range last night to get ready for a deer/ hog hunt that I am going on in Sept. One of the guys going sighted in four rifles, 7mm mag, 300 RUM, 7mm waters and a 308. He said he was bringing all four rifles, a handgun and his bow. Its only a three day hunt! What the fuck is he going to do with all that junk! I said nothing to him. It's his stuff, his hunt and he wants to bring it. I figure enjoy. He bought all the shit he might as well use it or at least drag it all over the east coast.

Every time I go on a Skeet shoot with one friend he brings a Browning Over and under, a Winchester Over and under and a old piece of shit Remington 1100. Thats right! He only uses the 1100 every time! When I asked why he brings the other guns that he never uses he said they were like kids, you have to take them for a ride in the country once in a while. MIKE.
Link Posted: 6/27/2002 3:25:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Supershooter:
Flashlights
Vertical Forward Grips
Lasers
Fixed Telescoping Style Stocks



I agree with you on the stock and visible laser. I tend to think the flashlight, and the forward grip to an added advantage.

A tactical is a must for CQB night shooting, and the grip makes shooting the gun full auto much more controllerable, and it is a great handle for manipulating the weapon in CQB.
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