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3/20/2017 5:03:23 PM
Posted: 5/20/2002 1:38:38 PM EDT
Okay before I ask, lets get one thing clear, I am asking because I'm curious, not because I plan to or am converting any firearm into a illegally produced machine gun. So please keep all the dumb ass comments about having my spincter enlarged in jail to yourself, nor am I interested in any legal mumbo jumbo about tax stamps, Class 3, Class 2, or anything of the sort. Last time I checked this was still America and information was free.

Okay here goes. I understand a DIAS sort of tricks an AR into thinking it is machine gun, yet I have heard others saying you need to still put in M-16 parts, now do those parts consist of just a M-16 bolt/carrier, or does it also rely on the use of M-16 lower parts (i.e. trigger, hammer, etc).

Second, if the DIAS does not need the M16 lower parts (trigger, sear etc), does that mean that the average Joe Blow can assemble a M-16 by using a standard mil-spec lower and M-16 parts, plus a M-16 bolt/carrier and NO DIAS? Is it that easy??????

If so, how come I Tapco, DPMS, etc freely sell those parts without any seemingly restrictions? As I see them always in the ads they send me.

Is that why the mere possession of an AR and the M16 lower parts/bolt/carrier consitute in the ATF's eyes a felony possession of a machine gun?

Never understood the legal ramifications for such.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:44:07 PM EDT
Ya know this is a question better asked in the Legal Forum and the Full-Auto Forum....
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:46:43 PM EDT
You still need the M16 parts, both lower and upper. A RDIAS replaces the M16 autosear only.

As far as why it is illegal to own M16 parts, I can't really tell you. Without the sear they operate exactly the same as an AR15.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:50:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2002 1:54:23 PM EDT by 50Freak]
What part is the autosear?

Is that the same part as the selector? Anyone have a pic?

And those side plate things that allow you to drill a hole into an Ar15 and convert it into a M16 is that hole for the AutoSear?


Thanks for the replies, my interests have been on FALs and 50's for the last couple of years, am trying to learn about AR's. Been doing a lot of reading on them so far.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 1:53:16 PM EDT
The autosear is the part that uses the extra hole in the M16 lower. I believe Tapco sells it, but I have never seen it as part of the trigger kit. Sold seperately.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 2:11:22 PM EDT
Yes, the drill jigs are designed to drill the hole for the autosear.

However simply drilling an AR receiver would not be enough. It would have to be milled out as well because an AR receiver is narrower where the autosear sits.
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 2:23:49 PM EDT
Interesting....

So is this what you guys mean when you say that Colt is not mil-spec (the sides for the auto sear are too narrow) versus the more mil-spec receiver makers such as BushMaster and DPMS?

What does the auto sear actually do? Does it slow down the hammer a fraction of a sec for the bolt to close and then drop the hammer? such as the system on a FAL. On Fals even though on most kits, you can turn the selector into the Auto position, it will not work, as the sear slows the drop of a hammer just for a half a second, to allow the hammer to get more momentum behind it to finally transfer full momentum over the firing pin and then the primer.

Link Posted: 5/20/2002 4:55:27 PM EDT
The factory auto-sear and the DIAS do basically the same job. When the rifle fires with the selector in the semi position, the disconnector catches the disconnect hook on the underside of the hammer if the trigger is held down. When the trigger is released, that CLICK you hear is the hammer dropping forward to be caught by the trigger nose, which is the normal firing position.

(before anyone jumps in, I'm simplifying this explanation, I know the trigger, selector and disconnector are different.)

In the "auto" position, the first shot is discharged by the trigger moving out of engagement with the sear notch in the hammer. If the trigger is held back, the hammer (which has a hook on its aft surface) will catch on the lower part of the autosear or DIAS. As the bolt closes, the extended lower surface of the bolt carrier catches the upper edge of the autosear, pivoting it out of engagement with the hammer and allowing the hammer to fall. This will repeat until the trigger is released.

The autosear provides a measure of safety in that the hammer does not contact the firing pin until the bolt is closed and locked. That's why it's dangerous to replace AR parts with 16 parts without using the autosear...there is a remote chance the weapon could fire out of battery if the selector is in the "auto" position, since the hammer will simply follow the bolt carrier as it closes.

There's more to it than this, but you get the idea.

QS
Link Posted: 5/20/2002 5:20:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 2:36:12 PM EDT
WOW! a civilized discussion about how full auto works, and not one web cop chiming in to accuse everyone of Trolling.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 4:36:45 PM EDT
I know!!!!!

I'm actually pretty impressed with all the responses, and no flames yet. Loved the diagram.

I think the gun community has gotten a lot "chicken" about posting information on the web. Providing information is not grounds for going to jail if the person you provided the information to goes out and commits a crime. Providing that information with the full knowledge that that person you are providing said information will then go and commit a crime. Now that is when you may be liable, otherwise information is just information.

But what do I know...after all I only work in one of the most largest and prestigious law firms in the US.
Link Posted: 5/21/2002 5:15:15 PM EDT
You can buy M16 manuals at any gun show or from any number of mailorder suppliers. If you get an older manual, for the M16A1, and study the cutaway drawings, you'll see exactly how the drop in works. Just replace, in your minds eye, the auto sear shown in the cutaways, with the DAS which is "on" in either the semi or full auto position, but only controls fire in the full auto position.

And no, if you don't have something in there to hold the hammer back until the bolt is fully locked you won't get full auto fire. What you will get is an occasional double and the rest of the time you'll get the hammer riding the bolt down to a misfire.

Oh by the way, that ad that keeps advertising drop in sears in the Shotgun News----the general concensus around here is that it's a BATF plant, tho none of us knows for sure because we don't believe in breaking the law And please, no crap about "I'd never do it myself, I just want some information" (or "I'm just asking for a friend"; the other favorite BS). I for one don't care why you're asking.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 8:15:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2002 8:19:29 AM EDT by 50Freak]
Well I am just curious, and really don't want a "toy" I could never take to a range (as I live in a pretty antigun state. That would be a complete waste of my money, time and resources. But I do enjoy learning all I can about my hobbies.

And I have no intention of buying one of those (as you AR15ners call it) ShotGunNews DIAS. It does makes me wonder why some people sell their DIASs in the thousands and this one company sells it for $150 something. Don't have to be a rocket scientist to now there is something wrong there.

But I am curious though, to the question: Does anyone know of, or heard of anyone who has bought those SGN DIASs and been jailed? My thinking on this is:

One, obviously people are buying these things because....no company (even a guy working out of his garage) would run those ads for years if no one has any interests in buying his product.

Two, if it is a ATF trap, any reasonably good atty can show entrapment...and in that case, even the ATF would realize this is not working and pull the ad.

Three, if scenario two is true, how come I've never heard of any convictions...or friends of the convicted posting on any of the tens of boards I frequent?

Link Posted: 5/22/2002 12:42:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 3:42:23 PM EDT
So again, no one has heard of any conviction whatso ever regarding these "SGN" DIAS?

Sounds like a nice little racket this guy has. $150 bucks for a piece of metal that cost maybe $5 bucks in material and machining.....

Wish my stocks had such a good return.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:06:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 50Freak:
So again, no one has heard of any conviction whatso ever regarding these "SGN" DIAS?

Sounds like a nice little racket this guy has. $150 bucks for a piece of metal that cost maybe $5 bucks in material and machining.....

Wish my stocks had such a good return.





Assuming it is the ATF -


Why tell the rest of the bears that the honey tastes like shit?
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:10:54 PM EDT
Keep the discussion about what not how.

Arock
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:23:15 PM EDT
There’s more than $5 worth of machining involved. It takes me about 30-45 min to make one from layout to finished product. Average hour for a machinist is 45-65 an hour. John, Dane mfg.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 5:47:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2002 6:17:43 PM EDT by Arock]

Originally Posted By Oliver:
There’s more than $5 worth of machining involved. It takes me about 30-45 min to make one from layout to finished product. Average hour for a machinist is 45-65 an hour. John, Dane mfg.



That's soliciting for an illegal product. This thread is locked and your account is in jeopardy.

**Edited to say the party in question has indicated he is a licensed Class 2 manufacturer. I am researching the issue and will post my finding.

Arock
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 8:17:10 PM EDT
Here's the response from our Legal Forum:

"Yes, a Class 2 can still manufacture a legal, registered DIAS. But... it is a post-sample, and you can't own it - only government agencies, other C2/C3 dealers/mfg with an LE demo letter, or for export with state department approval.

The supply of RDIAS that joe sixgun can own is fixed as of 5/19/86 (transferrable RDIAS)."

I want it understood not just just anyone can legally manufacture a new DIAS. And all the accompanying issues that go with "constructive possession" still apply.

What a DIAS is and how it works are valid areas
for discussion. Because of potential legal problems discussion of how to manufacture or install them are not.

I want to apologise to Oliver because what he said is correct. I want to encourage him and others in the future to more completely explain who they are, what they do and who their customers are when they post about issues that have legal implications.

Arock
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 8:23:11 PM EDT

So again, no one has heard of any conviction whatso ever regarding these "SGN" DIAS?

Because you don't read about it on the front page of the newspaper or hear it on the news doesn't mean people aren't getting burned for trying an endrun around the law. I was speaking to a well-known C2 manufacturer yesterday. There was some dingbat busted locally for making Sten guns from tube/template assemblies and Tapco parts kits as well as having a post-ban AR15 assembled into a pre-ban configuration (don't ever hear about anyone getting busted for that, either). The C2 found out about it when the BATF questioned him about a Form 4 he was processing for the would-be Sten guru (for a transferable weapon). Make no mistake, the BATF takes it seriously. They don't necessarily feel the need to hold press conferences and issue releases for all of their activities.

I think the fear that some people exhibit is understandable. They don't want to know and they don't want to be put in a compromising position.
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 8:49:55 PM EDT
Jim, this was in Oklahoma? What part?
Link Posted: 5/22/2002 10:02:45 PM EDT
OKC
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 12:11:50 AM EDT
i think the reason u dont hear about it is becouse most of the people plead out.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 12:44:03 AM EDT

i think the reason u dont hear about it is becouse most of the people plead out.

That doesn't have anything to do with how and which cases the Feds choose to publicize. The individual in question here hasn't been formally charged with anything yet. On the other hand, there was a truckstop proprietor who was raided in western Oklahoma for firearms violations about a month ago. His arrest was detailed all over the local television news almost as soon as it occurred. It has more to do with the agencies and attorneys involved than any plea agreement. I know this for a fact.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 3:23:48 PM EDT

Back to the discussion about the legalities of the SGN DIAS, I personally don't think its a ATF sting (doesn't mean I would buy one, as I have way too much to lose if I'm wrong). But the fact of the matter is, AR15.com has how many members, not counting Falfiles, Biggerhammer, Subguns, GlockTalk, AssualtWeb, AK47.net and etc. I pretty much frequent all these boards, throughout the day (I get kinda slow at work) and never in the four to five years I have been doing so, have heard of anyone asking for help, advice or anything regarding these SGN DIAS. Makes me think that the guy selling them is legit. And man, if it is, this guy is making a killing on this $150 paperweight. Even if it did cost $50 bucks to create, thats a 200% profit!!!!!!!

AGAIN, THIS IS IN NO WAY ADVOCATING ANYONE HERE GO OUT AND TEST THIS HYPOTHESIS. THIS IS JUST A DISCUSSION AND NOT ANY RECOMMENDATION OR JUSTIFICATION ON THE LEGALITIES OF THE "SGN" DIAS's.

Sorry, just the lawyer in me......
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 3:33:25 PM EDT
Did you say ' l.. la.. law.. lawyer ?? RUN !!
Yep its a real touchy subject around here .
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 3:37:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Arock:

Originally Posted By Oliver:
There’s more than $5 worth of machining involved. It takes me about 30-45 min to make one from layout to finished product. Average hour for a machinist is 45-65 an hour. John, Dane mfg.



That's soliciting for an illegal product. This thread is locked and your account is in jeopardy.

**Edited to say the party in question has indicated he is a licensed Class 2 manufacturer. I am researching the issue and will post my finding.

Arock



Why are the moderators so quick to jump to the conclusion that someone is talking about doing something illegal? Before I even read the moderator's response, I could have guessed that the guy was a legal manufacturer.
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 3:45:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/23/2002 3:46:34 PM EDT by 50Freak]
Oh come on, Lawyers aren't so bad.....OUCH!!!damn sunlight....

But seriously, you wouldn't believe the number of lawyers I work with that are big gun freaks. Just not very PC to advertise in the firm that you are into firearms. Your automatically labeled a "freak". But that could just be that because I mostly work with "cityfolks"


And when it comes down to it, you'll need a lawyer to protect you from lawyers/politicians
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:09:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sf46:

Originally Posted By Arock:

Originally Posted By Oliver:
There’s more than $5 worth of machining involved. It takes me about 30-45 min to make one from layout to finished product. Average hour for a machinist is 45-65 an hour. John, Dane mfg.



That's soliciting for an illegal product. This thread is locked and your account is in jeopardy.

**Edited to say the party in question has indicated he is a licensed Class 2 manufacturer. I am researching the issue and will post my finding.

Arock



Why are the moderators so quick to jump to the conclusion that someone is talking about doing something illegal? Before I even read the moderator's response, I could have guessed that the guy was a legal manufacturer.



Because of the nature of the internet any time an issue regarding such things as DIAS come up I assume I'm talking to a government agency.

The SGN DIAS have been hashed over several times in the past year and the ultimate outcome is it has the smell of a sting. You'd be a pure fool to acquire on of those things. Or trolling for something else.

While a discussion of what a DIAS IS and HOW IT FUNCTIONS are valid items for discussion HOW TO MAKE and/or INSTALL one is NOT.

The poster in question indicated he made new DIAS without telling how, why or for whom. For the less sophisticated this is tantamount to offering to provide something. I appreciate the acuity of your hindsight. A new member could reasonably contact the poster for his services and if either is not who he says he is both they and this Forum could have serious legal repercussions.

We are monitored on a regular basis. We have a good reputation. I for one will preserve it.

Although this IS the GENERAL Firearms Discussion this type of topic may be best served by posting in the M16-Full Auto or Legal sections.

If this continues to be an issue I can make a policy of locking or deleting and thread concerning DIAS. I would like to entertain a resonable discussion within the bounds of good old common sense.

Arock
Link Posted: 5/23/2002 7:37:59 PM EDT
I hate to say this guys, but Arock has already exercised a great deal of discretion in keeping this thread alive at all. This thread has been a good discussion, but anytime that you're discussing topics like this you're already on thin ice.

Part of a mods job is to make sure that this is a credible, respectable, law abiding sight. He said he was sorry for jumping the gun (I've offered him that same apology once before, so I've BTDT) and was willing to let the thread live. He has clearly stated the boundaries. Quite frankly, I think he has been generous considering the initial question asked. I was actually kind of surprised to see it continue. The fact that the initial question was quickly qualified might have had something to do with it. But still, this is a discussion for the FA forum. Though it has been very educational, it's Arock's job to keep it from causing harm to this site.

I'm with Arock on this one.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 8:21:27 AM EDT
Ditto on agreeing with Arock, makes sense.

I'm actually very pleased this thread has gone on so long as it has, and that I at no time I've had to put on my flame-retardant undies.
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 9:38:21 AM EDT
You guys have an open invitation to continue the best parts of this thread.

Arock
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 10:20:45 AM EDT
Cool,

Does anyone know how to convert my postban Glock 27 to fire 223 with just a DIAS????????

Just Kidding.

The topic of DIASs interest me mostly on the fact that up to maybe 10 years ago, they were pretty much cash and carry, other than the fact the ATF in thier infinite wisdom (again just joking) determined that it was to easy to convert a AR15 into a select fire weapon, was there an actually incident that brought about this verdict???

And how does a lightening link work in comparison to that of a DIAS?
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 11:22:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 50Freak:
Cool,

Does anyone know how to convert my postban Glock 27 to fire 223 with just a DIAS????????

Just Kidding.

And how does a lightening link work in comparison to that of a DIAS?



You're a man who obviously enjoys living dangerously.

Arock
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 11:50:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 50Freak:
The topic of DIASs interest me mostly on the fact that up to maybe 10 years ago, they were pretty much cash and carry, other than the fact the ATF in thier infinite wisdom (again just joking) determined that it was to easy to convert a AR15 into a select fire weapon, was there an actually incident that brought about this verdict???



Atually, it was a bit more than 10 years - more like 20. And it wasn't a verdict, it was a revenue ruling, the validity of which, if you read US v. Cash in the 5th Circuit, has really been called into question by Frank Easterbrook. There was no incident I know of, except that BATF finally realized people were using unregistered DIAS's to skirt the NFA's tax and registration requirement, and that the the statutory definition of a "machinegun" in the NFA was broad enough to support such a reading. However, nothing in the NFA or any other delegation of authority to the BATF empowered them to "grandfather" certain machineguns under the NFA and not others as they would have done under revenue ruling 81-4 (I think thats the official number, but correct me if I'm wrong).
Link Posted: 5/24/2002 12:24:54 PM EDT

And how does a lightening link work in comparison to that of a DIAS?

A lightning link holds down the disconnector allowing full auto fire. Generally, a lightning link does NOT allow select fire as on a normal M16-type rifle, just full auto. However, I have heard of modifications (with a LL) that will allow select fire operation. No M16 parts are required for use of a LL.

A RDIAS functions just like the sear trip lever on an M16, but does not require permanent alterations to the receiver, such as drilling a hole for installation (like on a RR conversion). M16 fire control parts and an M16 bolt carrier are necessary for proper operation.
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