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Posted: 5/8/2002 3:06:54 PM EDT
There's an interesting article in June 2002 issue of SAR regarding the bullet performance of Personal Defense Weapons (PDW) by both HK and FN. The author claims that the itty-bitty bullets (.22 cal. @ 23 grains by FN and .18 (!) cal @ 24.7 grains HK) have insufficient stopping powers, even at very high velocity. The article goes on to compare the energies of these two vs. .45ACP and 9mm., and concludes that these rounds are likely to get police killed. Very interesting read. I can hardly wait for FN and HK's responses to this article.

But these PDWs might be good if you are surrounded by killer bunnies. RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 4:55:25 PM EDT
i kinda agree with the author of that article its kinda logical that a bigger bullet is better especialy at the range that the pdw's are going to be used at. granted 223 works great do to the tumbling
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 5:05:05 PM EDT
I have been flamed for saying the same thing in a much less technical way. If you have examples of the rounds next to a .223 or a .22LR, you realize how puny they are. If it is the same bullet weight and speed as a .22 mag at 100 yards, it is going to be like getting hit with a .22 at 100 yards. This is supposed to be used to defend yourself against highly motivated people that are trying to kill you. Using what amounts to a .22 magnum doues not give me fuzzy warm feelings. What good is a 40-50 round magazine with full auto when it takes two mags full to stop one guy. Hell .223 is still barely enough against a man sized target. They would be better off giving an AR pistol with a 5 inch barrel to the guy because then at least he can use the same mags as regular infantry. Plus it can be used as an indoor flamethrower.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 6:41:50 PM EDT
Science is the root of all evil!!!

Ban it.........For the Children

I always wanted to write one of those "for the children" posts.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 10:43:29 PM EDT
Did they do any animal or ballistic gelatin testing of the rounds or did they simply compare energy figures and say "Ooh, look how tiny this round is. It must not be very effective."?
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 9:41:25 AM EDT
No jello were harmed during the writing of that article. However, the author, Dr. Martin L. Fackler, is the president of the International Wound Ballistics Assoc., so he should know what he's talking about. I am sure FN and HK will defend their honor and produce some real test results as rebuttal, so we will have to wait and see.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 11:07:45 AM EDT
lest we become a nation of Jello shooting shooters i repaeat once agien gelatin is just that gelatin
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 11:26:56 AM EDT
I dunno, I kinda like Jello shooters. The orange ones are good, if they're made with lots of vodka.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 12:21:37 PM EDT
Well, the difference is a 9mm or .45 is a rotten stopper if the "stoppee" is wearing body armor and the round is stopped by the armor.

Any of these rounds will cause problems if you get "tapped" in the noogin.

The newer PDW's give the shooter the ability to penetrate "armored" targets. Yes there is a down side, the bullets won't cause as much damage as a coventional bullet hitting an unarmored person. But they will cause more damage than a conventional handgun round being stopped by armor.

A lot of the PDW's are also full auto capable, and supposedly very stable in full auto. Overpenetration is supposed to be less likely as well.

PDW's are usually replacements for pistols. So they may have a capability advantage over them, range, armor pentration, and full auto. They are not replacements for AW's or battle rifles.

There are pluses and minuses to new, or different technologies. You should know the strenghts and weaknesses of your "systems".
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 1:26:13 PM EDT


if any of you dudes out there think that getting tapped in the torso five times with a .22 magnum isnt going to drop you pretty fast you must be some pretty big dudes on some pretty sweeeet coke. the .22 magnum is no slouch. plus the fact that the cyclic rate on these things is probly near 800 rpm. ive read that you can put all 50 rounds from a p-90 into a standard mansize target at like 50 yards... in full auto. thats about 3 seconds. these type weapons are all about controllability. i agree that getting hit by a 25 grain projectile isnt going to totally vaporize you into a little pink mist like the [sarcasm on] god of all rounds, the .45, will [/sarcasm off]. but it still isnt ineffective.


-Spaceman

Link Posted: 5/9/2002 1:39:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SpacemanSpiff:
i agree that getting hit by a 25 grain projectile isnt going to totally vaporize you into a little pink mist like the [sarcasm on] god of all rounds, the .45, will [/sarcasm off].

-Spaceman



LOL!!! totally agree, peolple scoff at my puny 9mm, (hell you'll just piss someone off with that thing, sonny, here, you need a .454 casull with exploding bullets) that's funny, don't let old man cooper(jeff) hear ya talkin like that, he'll drop one of those 9,000,000 grain, 2.5fps super .45 bullets on your toe!!!
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