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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Digital NV (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/23/2011 8:56:10 AM EDT
| I'd like to hear the thoughts on digital NV units out there? I have seen the Pulsar Digisight N550 riflescope videos, and they look decent for the money. Does anyone have any experience with the digital stuff? Actual NV is so far out of my budget that I can't even consider it at this point. Just wondering? I want something to kill piggies with it. |
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The Pulsar looks interesting, but it's basically Gen1 level equipment, so at the prices they are asking for them, you might as well save up for Gen2 or Gen3 so you'd have something decent. The N550 is basically active digital - ie, a digital camera with lots of extra IR to give you range. I'd say they are probably useful out to about 100m but I've heard that with a really good illuminator, this sometimes goes out a bit further. They need a lot of light to work acceptably. Beyond that, on a dark night, you won't see much. Digital is OK, but a lot of the claims made about them are pretty exaggerated. There are some reviews on this forum that will put it into perspective. If you're not expecting much more than Gen0/1 then they are OK. If they were a bit cheaper ( say around half their current price ), then I think they'd be a great entry-level scope. As it stands, they are a little overpriced IMO. YMMV. If you only want to shoot out to 100m, you could save money and go with a cheap Gen1. If you tried a Gen2 or Gen3, I think you'd have difficulty accepting a low-gain scope again. Regards David
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As most remember, we did an exhaustive SuperVision Digital review awhile back. Nothing much has changed especially in the area of frame rate hits when it's really dark out there.
I hope as the years progress we will see much more advancements, presently though digital it's just not there for true night vision. Vic |
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+1 - here's Vic's review - Still one of the best... |
A friend of mine bought the Pulsar 550 mono a few months back which I have used first hand. My first thought were wow for digital it does work pretty well and out to over 100 yards pitch black night. With good moon light you can see way out there no IR needed. The unit is light weight and built fairly well overall it seem slike it should hold up to some heavy field use. The bad is first you need IR in any condition that it is very dark, eats batteries fast,the Mag seems very high on this unit it looks great in open areas but up in the woods it seems like to much mag X. Overall for $500 it would be hard to beat but when we compare my SHP 2+ mono right next to the 550 it sort of made the 550 look not as impressive anymore.
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+1 - here's Vic's review - Still one of the best... Thanks for the kind words David. I remember thinking all those "investors" back then wanted me lynched! 
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Quoted: Quoted: +1 - here's Vic's review - Still one of the best... Thanks for the kind words David. I remember thinking all those "investors" back then wanted me lynched! That shot inside the house told the real story... The conditions for the rest of your test were rather kind to the Supervision IMO. Regards David |
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Vic, have you tested any of the Pulsar stuff? Not extensively but used both this and the older Elcan Digi-Hunter...Same thing plagues all Digi units; when it gets really dark out there, the performance hit is huge. 
I see not much reason to do yet another in-depth eval and come to the same conclusions. 
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October 22, 2011
Field Review of the Pulsar Digisight N-550 Digital NV Riflescope, http://www.pulsar-nv.com/product.aspx?prid=13&am=1&asm=49 . Setup: Rifle – FNH FNAR .308 Win (7.62x51mm) 20 inch heavy barrel Ammo – Handloads, 168gr Sierra GameKing Spitzer, 48 grains of IMR 4350, Winchester Brass, CCI large rifle primers, RCBS small full size die crimped with LEE FCD The weather was cooperative for the Pulsar’s first outing, Sunny with temps in low 80’s wind 8-10 mph. This was the first time shooting the reloads so BEFORE I mounted the Pulsar I shot a 5 round grouping with the Millet TRS-2 4-16.56mm optical scope to see what the best accuracy would be from the ammo and gun configuration. Not great it was 2 MOA at 100 yards but it would do the job on a pig at that range so the project continued. Grouping of handloads with Millet conventional optic scope. http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Guns/MilletReloadsFNAR.jpg The idea of shooting the gun with your ammunition BEFORE mounting the Pulsar is to establish a baseline standard of performance, the Pulsar is a fixed 4.5 digital scope which could pose challenges for new users and so it is best to know optimum capabilities before possibly blaming larger groups or inaccuracy on the scope. Here is a quick video overview of the scope, I make many incorrect references I am sure so go easy on me. Pulsar Digisight N550 Scope Overview Video Recording Equipment: The scope is continually outputting analog video from it’s composite (yellow connection RCA port) output. Users can capture the video using various methods. The essential elements for recording are storage (SD card or Harddrive) and Video processing circuitry, neither of which the Pulsar has built in so the only solution is to record to an external device. Worst option – A DVR full size recorder, I am sure it would work but not portable at all and typically cost is 150.00 or higher. Pictured below is a Sony DVD Recorder Model vrd-mc6 (unsure if it works just using as an example) http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/sonyrecorder.jpg Better option – A laptop (this has the video processing software and storage) and a video capture device (circuitry). THIS WAS THE METHOD USED FOR THIS REVIEW, note the resolution of the video is 352x240 which is not the best quality, this was a limitation of the Pinnacle USB 700 capture device. http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/asusnetbook.jpg http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/PinnalceUSB700.jpg The pros to this type of capture setup is that you can attain top quality resolution and depending on the specs of the laptop the video will be silky smooth (no jittering). The cons are you have to have a good laptop battery or external power supply and multiple pieces of equipment. Cost is 350.00 or higher depending on laptop purchased. You have to be computer savvy. Best option - A mini DVR (pocket DVR). Typically these devices record to an SD card and have the ability to operate off of battery power. The video processing circuitry is onboard the device so no computer is necessary during recording. The factory recommended option is the Yukon MPR (mobile personal recorder). http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/yukonmpr.jpg There are a million different types of recorders on the market (Chinese / Japanese / American) the most important specs when shopping for these devices is bitrate (recording speed), resolution (720 x 480 preferred) and max capacity for storage (SD card size). The better the equipment the higher the cost. Price is 250.00 plus Zeroing the scope: The concept of being able to move your reticle via digital interface takes some getting used to and if you don’t have the gun stabilized in a benchrest (viced into position) you are going to have some minor variance. This will be a frustrating process for people who have to have pinpoint accuracy because the image displayed will never be as sharp as a conventional optical scope. Here is a video of using the one shot zero function. Pulsar Digisight One Shot Zero Feature Video I tried like heck to zero the scope at a hundred yards but unfamiliarity all the way around proved overwhelming so I ended up zeroing the gun and scope at 25 yards. I used a ballistic chart to calculate what zero would be for 200 yards and taking the 25 yard measurement I zeroed for that (.8 inches high at 25 yards). It isn’t exact science BUT it gets your windage and elevation near zero so you can tweak from there. Shooting the scope in daylight / sunset / night (no moon) but with ambient light (feeder hog light). Here are some Videos of the Pulsar in action: Pulsar Digisight N550 footage an hour before sunset Broad daylight can pose significant challenges in shooting at paper targets, I am going to have to devise a black target to shoot at. You can see that anything white or light gets washed out pretty good. I would say a conventional optic for daytime hunting is better than the Pulsar by a large margin. Pulsar N550 footage a half hour before sunset and reticle inversion feature Sunset shooting doesn’t suffer from as much washout but now you have shadows to contend with, the nice thing about the Pulsar is that you can invert the reticle color from Black to White to overcome the shadow and/or target coloring. Pulsar N550 After Sunset video footage and Green Carbine Laser Demo Shooting at night you will have to have at least a quarter moonlight to see with the scope and by manipulating the screen brightness you can start to realize the full potential of the scope. Without moonlight your max range is going to be 50 yards. For this video there was no moon but I had an LED light fixed on the feeder so if you use hog lights you get the idea of what resolution is like. Future videos will show moonlight shooting without light assistance. Lots of raccoons and a fat skunk in the vid, also at about the 1 minute mark I activate the Kryptonite K15 green laser to demonstrate the image rendering of a laser. Final thoughts: A scope that can capture the hunt to video AND render a decent night image at a cost below 1600.00 total (including recording equipment) PRICELESS. I have a great bit more to learn in using this scope. Once I become familiar with how to get the best image using the contrast / brightness / assistive lighting I would expect my gains in harvesting hogs to increase dramatically. The scope did OK with the recoil of the 308, I would not recommend rapid fire as it will probably kill it dead, I did 4 shots in a row and the screen was blinking pretty hard in between shots. The factory says it is rated for 6000 joules of shock but I think that is a bit aggressive. Only time will tell… I believe the only thing missing from this package (hope your listening Pulsar reps) ; is lack of onboard range finding. Like the Burris Eliminator I would think that with all the digital architecture already on the Pulsar integration of range finding isn’t outside the realm of possibility…. It sure would be unbeatable as a hunting tool with that function. BB Varmit Removal from the deer feed pen - 85 yards with ambient lighting Oh and the first kill with the scope, yes I miss the first shot – remember I zeroed at 25 yards. After the miss I put a target out at 100 yards and under the cover of darkness I set zero and was poppin water bottles the next day. |
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<SNIP> Shooting at night you will have to have at least a quarter moonlight to see with the scope and by manipulating the screen brightness you can start to realize the full potential of the scope. Without moonlight you max range is going to be 50 yards. For this video there was no moon but I had an LED light fixed on the feeder so if you use hog lights you get the idea of what resolution is like. Future videos will show moonlight shooting without light assistance. Lots of raccoons and a fat skunk in the vid, also at about the 1 minute mark I activate the Kryptonite K15 green laser to demonstrate the image rendering of a laser. <SNIP> I saw that you posted this review at many other forums and cut and pasted here on the ARFCOM, so I will comment here. You made no mention of the frame rate hits this unit takes in low light and is virtually unusable at any range. As with all digital, supplemental IR is a must to have the unit work in most low light conditions. This unit was no better, nor worse than the Elcan Day/Night Digi and at least did not have the white out effect of the Supervision, but having supplemental IR and/or a bright conditions is a must. The unit we had for a month did not show us anything new to the digital realm of shooting in the dark. I wish it did. 
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I saw that you posted this review at many other forums and cut and pasted here on the ARFCOM, so I will comment here. You made no mention of the frame rate hits this unit takes in low light and is virtually unusable at any range. As with all digital, supplemental IR is a must to have the unit work in most low light conditions. This unit was no better, nor worse than the Elcan Day/Night Digi and at least did not have the white out effect of the Supervision, but having supplemental IR and/or a bright conditions is a must. The unit we had for a month did not show us anything new to the digital realm of shooting in the dark. I wish it did.
TNVC - I appreciate your input, you are correct that I did not cover the frame rate (studdering) in low light situations in my initial review. Mainly because I did not operate or record footage in complete darkness. I have added this to my to do list for making videos. More to your point however in the initial review I state that the use of the scope without moonlight is max 50 yards. What I was hoping readers would infer is that the scope is not useful in no moon or zero IR light. While you might be able to focus on a target and take a shot it would NOT be an optimal shooting situation. I use the scope for hunting hogs in open fields and under deer feeders, an environment in which I can and do control the lighting availability, for me this scope has a few advantages that I have yet to realize in my LIMITED experience with tube intensifier NV. Regardless of the amount of IR light you throw down at a target zone the Pulsar is not going to "burn up" or lighten up such as my Gen 3 (non-autogated) monocular has done. I can record the hunt. The images in the videos above are the worst footage that I will ever capture and do not adequately show the level of detail this scope can render. I have something in the works as we exchange posts here for the next video shoot which will hopefully result in higher quality videos. BB UPDATE: I was on the phone with the US importer of the scopes today discussing what makes it tick. He was kind enough to release an expanded technical specifications sheet on the product and said I was free to share it so long as the disclaimer is, as follows: Don't open the scope in any way shape or form, doing so would invalidate the warranty.   
BB |
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Update # 2
11-2-2011 - I made an optic "doubler" for the Pulsar. I scooped up a 1.6x Canon teleconverter lens of craigslist for 35.00, epoxy (2100 psi strength) for 2.00, and about 3 hours of labor and 24 hours of curing. The design - A teleconversion lens will go in front of the active base lense and is a see-through optic magnifier. It will change your POA and POI. The Canon lens is 52mm (body size) at the rear, the actual lense itself is probably 30 - 37mm. The front of the teleconverter lense is over 60mm in diameter. The only way I could figure to mount the lense ahead of the Pulsar's was to modify the bell housing to accept the body of the Canon and glue it into place. I think I got dang lucky on the end result in terms of centering the optic (see photo with level) and spacing ahead of the Pulsar's lense - the closer the better without making contact between the two. Overall length with the teleconverter increased 2 inches.        
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11-2-2011
…Update continued The Results: The following photos are meant to give a general idea of the magnification achieved, don't concentrate on the quality of image between the two because some were originally captured during daytime vs nightime. I can assure you that from an onscreen image standpoint the increase in clarity (being able to focus on detail) with the doubler modification is unreal. Optically I cannot explain how a better image is able to be achieved but from behind the scope it is obvious.  4.5x
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The farthest object above is the quad windows (75 yards) the nearest is the house siding with trees in the foreground (37 yards). Next up on the review and field tests is IR Illumination BB |
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11-2-2011 …Update continued The Results: The following photos are meant to give a general idea of the magnification achieved, don't concentrate on the quality of image between the two because some were originally captured during daytime vs nightime.I can assure you that from an onscreen image standpoint the increase in clarity (being able to focus on detail) with the doubler modification is unreal. Optically I cannot explain how a better image is able to be achieved but from behind the scope it is obvious. http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20117-45PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot211-2-20117-50PM-1.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot311-2-20117-46PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot211-2-20117-48PM-1.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20118-18PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot311-2-20117-48PM.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot511-2-20117-47PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20117-49PM.png Doubled The farthest object above is the quad windows (75 yards) the nearest is the house siding with trees in the foreground (37 yards). Next up on the review and field tests is IR Illumination BB WTF? Night Vision is suppossed to work in the dark; day images don't count. 
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Quoted: Quoted: 11-2-2011 …Update continued The Results: The following photos are meant to give a general idea of the magnification achieved, don't concentrate on the quality of image between the two because some were originally captured during daytime vs nightime.I can assure you that from an onscreen image standpoint the increase in clarity (being able to focus on detail) with the doubler modification is unreal. Optically I cannot explain how a better image is able to be achieved but from behind the scope it is obvious. BB WTF? Night Vision is suppossed to work in the dark; day images don't count. LoL!  I think the intent was to show the magnification improvement, not compare day and night shots :) Just curious BB- without a firm base to lock into, any lens movement is likely to result in POI shift - what have your live shooting tests shown you about variation in point of impact with the modification in place? Regards David
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Vic, have you tested any of the Pulsar stuff? Not extensively but used both this and the older Elcan Digi-Hunter...Same thing plagues all Digi units; when it gets really dark out there, the performance hit is huge.
I see not much reason to do yet another in-depth eval and come to the same conclusions. I'm not doing it and by the looks of the NV shots and that graininess, nothing has changed with Digi systems...Huge frame rate hits, terrible resolution in dark conditions and folks can just use a day scope in most arenas we see digi operating in. |
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11-2-2011 …Update continued The Results: The following photos are meant to give a general idea of the magnification achieved, don't concentrate on the quality of image between the two because some were originally captured during daytime vs nightime.I can assure you that from an onscreen image standpoint the increase in clarity (being able to focus on detail) with the doubler modification is unreal. Optically I cannot explain how a better image is able to be achieved but from behind the scope it is obvious. http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20117-45PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot211-2-20117-50PM-1.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot311-2-20117-46PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot211-2-20117-48PM-1.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20118-18PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot311-2-20117-48PM.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot511-2-20117-47PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20117-49PM.png Doubled The farthest object above is the quad windows (75 yards) the nearest is the house siding with trees in the foreground (37 yards). Next up on the review and field tests is IR Illumination BB WTF? Night Vision is suppossed to work in the dark; day images don't count. You owe me a keyboard...
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11-2-2011 …Update continued The Results: The following photos are meant to give a general idea of the magnification achieved, don't concentrate on the quality of image between the two because some were originally captured during daytime vs nightime.I can assure you that from an onscreen image standpoint the increase in clarity (being able to focus on detail) with the doubler modification is unreal. Optically I cannot explain how a better image is able to be achieved but from behind the scope it is obvious. http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20117-45PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot211-2-20117-50PM-1.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot311-2-20117-46PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot211-2-20117-48PM-1.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20118-18PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot311-2-20117-48PM.png Doubled http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot511-2-20117-47PM.png 4.5x http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu1/bennybone/Night%20Vision/Snapshot111-2-20117-49PM.png Doubled The farthest object above is the quad windows (75 yards) the nearest is the house siding with trees in the foreground (37 yards). Next up on the review and field tests is IR Illumination BB WTF? Night Vision is suppossed to work in the dark; day images don't count. You owe me a keyboard... My wife has a keyboard with illumated keys; it might be quite useful with digital NV.... oh wait, then one would need 10' long arms to be within the minimum focal distance. 
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Tough crowd here. Most are happy just to see at night with a reticle.
Turn on your tube night vision devices during the day and let me know what that image looks like 
The still images are screen captures from a video which takes a quailty hit, I was simply wanting to demonstrate the magnification difference. David - There will be a change in POI with the new teleconversion lense, I find out tomorrow how much change. As for not having a firm base, not quite sure what you mean? The scope is locked in on the top rail and the teleconverter is permanently affixed to the bell housing. I don't forsee recoil shifting the scope but as with all things optics it will bear close watching. TNVC - Yes we have covered the frame hits in low light, this scope will not be effective in 1/4 moon or less. No you don't have to do another review. What I aim to review in the coming weeks is this Pulsar scope coupled with the Bosch AEGIS UFLED IR illuminator, the 850nm 10 degree FOV version which is supposed to have 200 yards of light throw from its LED light array AND has the Black Diamond Technology which evenly distributes light for zero hotspots. The following is NOT MY VIDEO but I intend to utlize the same technology in the US while hunting quarry. I will reserve my final judgement of the digi system until after my field test with this setup but lets just say I am hopeful that it will be an impressive display of digital nightvision. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjF_QPcBXQg At 1:15 the Bosch is demonstrated. ...more to come BB |
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BB, you seem to be passionate about digital, and that is most admirable. Hopefully, one day it will be an economical alternative with acceptable performance. The linked vid illustrates graphically my experience with the technology; if there is one thing that digital NV is very good at, it is detecting active IR under pseudo-static conditions.
When you mention "will not be effective in 1/4 moon or less", do you mean from last quarter to first quarter? That would be 50% of the lunar cycle....then there are things like cloud cover and thick woods. You are also correct that this forum is full of equally enthusiastic folks; some of the others from a hardcore tech perspective, and some like me who just get kicks out of using the gear under the most challenging ambient conditions. |
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BB, When you mention "will not be effective in 1/4 moon or less", do you mean from last quarter to first quarter? That would be 50% of the lunar cycle....then there are things like cloud cover and thick woods. To clarify the scope will not be effective for 50 percent of the lunar cycle WITHOUT external IR illumination. Also it will not be effective during hurricanes, dust storms, and earthquakes. Every user of gear is different, in my case I plan my hunts and in all cases I attempt to create an advantage my way with regards to hunting the quarry which includes not planning a hunt in the deep woods or foggy nights, etc.... Someone who spends nearly 2k on a shooting package (scope/accessories/illuminators) should be smart enough to know when and where the best place to use it is. I look at things as a progression, you want night vision for 300.00 bucks go get a Gen 1 ATN and hunt 60 yards and closer, you want night vision for 1k get a Gen 2 and hunt the same distance but be able to see what you are shooting. You got 2k, well gets more interesting now doesn't it. You want to drop 4500 on a scope there is a PVS22 or higher or D760 out there for you to hunt out to 400 yards. In the spirit of good faith I am here to provide information that may enhance one specific level of gear not debate its standing or improve its position in the progression. BB Now before anyone jumps to any conclusions, I am not a vigilent defender of Pulsar or any type of equipment, I am a guy who enjoys hunting and even moreso when there are cool new technologies to employ in the field. I find this specific channel on AR15 to be most helpful and have a high level of respect for the community. I am not here to argue, I can take a joke and look forward to more and more feedback along the way. 
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BB, folks around here well know that I can be plenty smart ass at times, and you are able to maintain great composure.
I agree that one should do their best to plan recreational night activities around the anticipated ambient conditions; in fact, we always schedule our range sessions for new moon or sometimes last quarter as those conditions tend to separate the rock stars from the groupies. Tagging 8" steels suppressed at 300y in the pitch black is a whole lot of fun, but is actually surprisingly easy with the proper equipment.... 2.67 MOA shot. I am not a land baron, but am very fortunate to occasionally be invited hog hunting. Considering such, one must be as best prepared as reasonably possible for any conditions presented including challenging ambient or geophysical conditions. As an example, one weekend I spent with a well respected member here we got skunked... first night was pea soup fog and the second was reasonably heavy rain. It was still great to get out and work the gear. Another opportunity was in a plenty thick river bottom with high humidity, and we were successful despite the challenges. Back on topic, I took the opportunity to spend probably 30-40+ hours of actual use over a period of 5 months with another brand of digital unit (am a glutten for punishment) and the performance was sub-optimal (my wife really likes that PC term for "really sucked"). Indication from another highly respected member of this specialized community is that the Pulsar does not offer significant performance differential versus the device that I spent that time with. Active IR works great with digital, but introduce any significant humidity (which is quite common in my locale) and that turns into a huge negative analogous to high beam headlights in fog. There are also other detrimental considerations. The vast majority of folks cannot afford a $20k hunting rig (weapon, suppressor, monocular, riflescope, basic thermal), so hopefully digital NV technology will evolve to an acceptable performance level at some point in the future. Again, I am not some high tech scientist, simply a user of equipment with a generally cynical outlook until proven otherwise. Take care, J |
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BB, folks around here well know that I can be plenty smart ass at times, and you are able to maintain great composure.
I agree that one should do their best to plan recreational night activities around the anticipated ambient conditions; in fact, we always schedule our range sessions for new moon or sometimes last quarter as those conditions tend to separate the rock stars from the groupies. Tagging 8" steels suppressed at 300y in the pitch black is a whole lot of fun, but is actually surprisingly easy with the proper equipment.... 2.67 MOA shot. I am not a land baron, but am very fortunate to occasionally be invited hog hunting. Considering such, one must be as best prepared as reasonably possible for any conditions presented including challenging ambient or geophysical conditions. As an example, one weekend I spent with a well respected member here we got skunked... first night was pea soup fog and the second was reasonably heavy rain. It was still great to get out and work the gear. Another opportunity was in a plenty thick river bottom with high humidity, and we were successful despite the challenges. Back on topic, I took the opportunity to spend probably 30-40+ hours of actual use over a period of 5 months with another brand of digital unit (am a glutten for punishment) and the performance was sub-optimal (my wife really likes that PC term for "really sucked"). Indication from another highly respected member of this specialized community is that the Pulsar does not offer significant performance differential versus the device that I spent that time with. Active IR works great with digital, but introduce any significant humidity (which is quite common in my locale) and that turns into a huge negative analogous to high beam headlights in fog. There are also other detrimental considerations. The vast majority of folks cannot afford a $20k hunting rig (weapon, suppressor, monocular, riflescope, basic thermal), so hopefully digital NV technology will evolve to an acceptable performance level at some point in the future. Again, I am not some high tech scientist, simply a user of equipment with a generally cynical outlook until proven otherwise. Take care, J 
You must live down there near that Texas gulf coast... Up here in North Central Texas we don't battle the weather conditions you mention as often, for most of the year, at night, the weather is pleasant and the terrain is flat open fields spotted with mesquite and cedars and cows. It is probably infinitely easier to shop for hogs and coyotes up this way. Users considering digital nightvision should consider the areas they will be using the scope with the variables you and I are discussing because as other members mention and as I will most certainly find out in the future is that, well... it matters. Thanks for the feedback J Ben |
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Two issues with my doubler modification -
The poi shifted by 2 feet, couldn't adjust reticle to new zero. Then on about shot 7 tHe Canon teleconverter gave up the ghost, recoil shook it apart. Back to the drawing board, nnext up will be a review of Dr. Bobs doubler adapter and sony teleconverter lense, a known working system. BB |
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Quoted: Two issues with my doubler modification - The poi shifted by 2 feet, couldn't adjust reticle to new zero. Then on about shot 7 tHe Canon teleconverter gave up the ghost, recoil shook it apart. Back to the drawing board, nnext up will be a review of Dr. Bobs doubler adapter and sony teleconverter lense, a known working system. BB Sorry to hear - I had fears for the design when I was looking at it - though i thought it really looked the part. As someone who plays with the parts as well, I have to give you full credit for the idea and for trying. If you do it again, I'd recommend you also take the speed of the lens into consideration as the teleconverter you chose would have quite a high performance hit lightwise. Don't give up - each failure will only give you more knowledge that you will need to be successful. And I would recommend taking Murderman up on his offer to see some high-end Gen3 in operation - knowing how all the technology works is useful too. Regards
David |
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BB, I own a digi unit just for shits and giggles. I bought it new because I got it at a steal of a price. It is a Newton Hornet 5x42 . It has all the normal issues with digital night vision. With added IR it works great out to maybe 100 meters. I would rather have the Hornet over any cheap Gen 1 . It is useful for non serious work like varmint control at short ranges. I think digital is the future but is just not yet ready for main stream practical use.
I am a fan of it and hope with new technology and price drops for said tech that it opens up the world of night vision to everyone. Cost scares many away from quality gear. In time I think digital will drive the cost down and replace the image intensifier. How long ? I suspect many years before the cutting edge tech we see in digital today is at a price that is cost effective. As it stands at the moment I see it as a interesting toy. Fine for limited use but nothing I would bet my life on. |
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BB thank you for the review of the Pulsar. That was the specific scope I have been looking at, and I have a line on a great deal for one. I simply do not make the money to afford Gen3 NV gear, which would be nice. Instead, I need to find an alternative, and so far the Pulsar has shown to be what I want.
I find it hard to listen to people who have no hands on experience with a particular unit, but want to say it is junk. I respect the knowledge of people who have done this for some time, but I want to hear from folks who are out in the field actually using it. I know of a group of people using no less than 4 of these right now, and they have access to thermal and good Gen3 units. But my questions were answered, and thank those who gave input. I know conventional NV is nice, especially the Gen 3 and up stuff. I can't afford it, and won't be able to anytime soon. |
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Quoted:
BB thank you for the review of the Pulsar. Your welcome. Update # 3 11-8-11 I put together a homemade IR illuminator, here is a video showing the Pulsar's base image rendering followed by the Sum Light feature built into the scope followed by the homemade ir setup. Homemade IR illuminator - Pulsar Digisight N550 Remember that while the Pulsar can "see" out to 400 + yards it is quite another things to shoot out that far at 4.5x maginfication. Nonetheless spotters and stalkers might appreciate the scope's dual purpose when using alot of IR illumination over an open field. BB |
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Quoted: I said it early on with with the Supervision review...I hope Digital can come to age, it has much potential, but presently the cons out weigh the need to REALLY see in the dark. Well, the current best digital beat the MX10160C so I'd say they have "come of age" - It's just not available to us civs yet. :( David
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Quoted:
I said it early on with with the Supervision review...I hope Digital can come to age, it has much potential, but presently the cons out weigh the need to REALLY see in the dark. TNVC - Pulsar's digital is not a technical equal to other high end night scopes. I will go look at your Supervision review to better educate myself on your experience with digital. I am ignorant of much with regards to night vision BUT I can tell you that I can REALLY see with the Pulsar UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. Exploration of the features of the scope in the field along with application of enhancements which increase the functionality of the tool can and will result in a higher level of performance from the standard digital baseline. I tell people the Pulsar is like buying a Corvette with only 6 spark plugs, with the correct "in the field and at home honing" enhancements (a doubler / a significant IR illuminator / development of a bullet compensating reticle) you can bring the form and function in line with the concept of the product - i.e. Make the Corvette run as though it has 8 spark plugs with cold air induction and a supercharger. 
Regardless, even after mods, I won't be trailblazing about the country side hunting for animals with it because honestly the digital technology isn't able to lend me a significant advantage but from my perch overlooking this field with a buddy manning the illuminator I can shoot and kill all night at various distances. Last time I will say this, Digital vs Image Intensifier Technology is NOT a failr comparison. Digital loses everytime and it isn't even close. I am not here to claim that the King is de-throned nor how others should spend their moola $$$. (TNVC) Thanks for all you do here on the forums for without your guidance and significant time taken to share your experience with the community we would surely not be as capable as we are in the field (civilian commandoes). BB |
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Thanks for writing back and the kind words.
So you know, I could also see well with the Supervision under "under the right circumstances." Their viewfinder is still the best of the best I've ever seen.
I understand some folks cannot get into a Gen 3. They're are other options such as the M845 Gen 2 SHP with a L3 tube that is probably the best dollar per resolution at 2K. Understood it has a bit less magnification but can be used in all night time circumstances with no frame rate hits which is a huge limitation for most if not all digi devices. I've always liked the idea of digital and I REALLY like the video out functions, which can be such a powerful tool for LE type duties. The Elcan Digi Day/Night Hunter has been out for awhile now and I used this on many occasions. Just not sure how this new entry is above the Elcan unit except we're seeing a bit more advertising from the Pulsar folks. We saw the same thing from the Supervision, but those folks were on a whole other level of creative marketing to say the least. I think the Pulsar folks learned a bit from Supervisions creative style of marketing, and do not seem to making the same mistakes.
Vic |
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Quoted:
Thanks for writing back and the kind words.
So you know, I could also see well with the Supervision under "under the right circumstances." Their viewfinder is still the best of the best I've ever seen.
I understand some folks cannot get into a Gen 3. They're are other options such as the M845 Gen 2 SHP with a L3 tube that is probably the best dollar per resolution at 2K. Understood it has a bit less magnification but can be used in all night time circumstances with no frame rate hits which is a huge limitation for most if not all digi devices. I've always liked the idea of digital and I REALLY like the video out functions, which can be such a powerful tool for LE type duties. The Elcan Digi Day/Night Hunter has been out for awhile now and I used this on many occasions. Just not sure how this new entry is above the Elcan unit except we're seeing a bit more advertising from the Pulsar folks. We saw the same thing from the Supervision, but those folks were on a whole other level of creative marketing to say the least. I think the Pulsar folks learned a bit from Supervisions creative style of marketing, and do not seem to making the same mistakes.
Vic Vic, Not surprisingly, you make some very good points about both the pros and cons of digi. My recollection of the big negatives when using the Supervision (which is not the subject device of this thread, but has similar characteristics) were: 1) Required active IR to be useful in most ambient conditions. 2) Slow refresh rate, even under favorable ambient conditions. 3) "Flared" bigtime if any comparatively bright sources were present in the FoV. 4) Sucked down the proprietary batteries 2-3x faster than one could recharge spares. 5) Minimum focal distance of 10-15'. The positives were: 1) Digital magnification seemed to work OK. 2) Vid out capability is beneficial. All, (Vic, BB, David, Dino) does this sound about right from your experience? Now that I have been using thermal devices more and more, which are also digital of course, albeit with different lenses and sensors, appreciation for the concept is very real. Aspects such as integrated range finding, atmospheric measurement, gyroscopic measurement, GPS positioning, and associated ballistic correction come to mind.....the stuff that the real deal Tier 1 guys have available. Just as thermal cannot produce equivalent resolution to conventional I^2 at consumer level price point, digital NV seems to be in the same boat just now, but that should evolve. Think about how "smart" smartphones have become. You are also dead nuts on about the M845-2SHP being an extremely good value these days for the economically-constrained shopper. I was quite skeptical (and most of y'all well know that I am about the biggest cynic that exists) when presented with the opportunity to T&E one earlier this year (which was sourced from other than TNVC, by the way), and was equally pleasantly surprised with the quality of performance. It is definitely not a high end Gen3 device, but it is leaps and bounds better than anything else available at the price point, including digi.... effective at 100y w/o active IR under very dark ambient, and even better with active IR and/or decent lunar phase. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It is definitely not a high end Gen3 device, (1) Is a PVS-14 considered high end? I'm being serious. (2) Digital sounds like the future. Terminator and Predator abilities in one. A PVS-14 with good specs would be considered high end to most folks, although this discussion more relates to dedicated riflescopes, of which the PVS-14 is not in form factor. I have absolutely no idea what you mean by Terminator and Predator? |
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Quoted:
The movies. Where Ahnold or the Predator have source recognition, range, movement, heat signature and associated on a visual display. Digital will move toward that. In "the movies", suppressors don't make any sound at all; in real life, supersonic projectiles actually do. |
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Quoted:
Vic, Not surprisingly, you make some very good points about both the pros and cons of digi. My recollection of the big negatives when using the Supervision (which is not the subject device of this thread, but has similar characteristics) were: 1) Required active IR to be useful in most ambient conditions. When the moon is not out the Pulsar is not useable without IR, I would say that a quarter moon or more with the "Sum Light" function activated and a steady rest and NO IR is useable out to 75 yards. 2) Slow refresh rate, even under favorable ambient conditions. With the Pulsar the refresh rate is 30 FPS, when you do have adequate IR and turn the Sum Light feature OFF the screen and motion is very smooth. You have to work the screen brightness control a whole lot more with no Sum Light or when adequate IR is present but again very smooth screen image. 3) "Flared" bigtime if any comparatively bright sources were present in the FoV. I have had to bottom out the screen brightness to offset flare a couple of times, usually when IR reflects back on objects closer than 25 yards. I haven't come across a light source that makes the scope unuseable, thankfully the animals aren't carrying maglites. 4) Sucked down the proprietary batteries 2-3x faster than one could recharge spares. I cannot verify this yet but I believe I have already killed a set of rechargeables (bad cell) and the backup alkalines I had lasted about 3 hours. so power is an issue. Supposedly Pulsar has just released last month a battery pack, Li-Pol battery pack , which states to increase battery life 20 hours... No pricing that I can find as of yet. I would be interested to see someone build up one of these using readily available camera parts... 5) Minimum focal distance of 10-15'. Same with the Pulsar, I have a carbine laser on the gun for up close work < 30 yards The positives were: 1) Digital magnification seemed to work OK. No such animal on the Pulsar, hence the doubler idea that I am chasing 2) Vid out capability is beneficial. So cool - I dabble in home audio and video and computers on the side and this is a sweet blend of that and hunting. All, (Vic, BB, David, Dino) does this sound about right from your experience? see above responses I am hopeful that Pulsar is "listening" to the user community for future digital applications, YES BDC and rangefinding would be ultra functional in hunting applications. |
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Quoted:
The movies. Where Ahnold or the Predator have source recognition, range, movement, heat signature and associated on a visual display. Digital will move toward that. I got the Sci-Fi reference TenOC, the quarry will not stand a fair chance when that time comes and I was talking with my hunting buddy over the weekend who is "old school" and telling him it wouldn't surprise me that 40 years from now the young hunters ask "What is a optic scope". |
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Typical CCD has bad response past 1000nm. Coupled with right optics (proper material and coating), it's satisfactory at best without additional image processing or HUGE objective or other additional modifications (boosting post-amp for example). CCDs were made for visible band, which has MUCH higher signal than noise during the daytime, but when night falls, the CCD is signal starved. Granted, there are things you can do to combat that, but probably not practical.
SWIR is probably the next logical step as it works day and night, cheaper cost. |
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Quoted:
Typical CCD has bad response past 1000nm. Coupled with right optics (proper material and coating), it's satisfactory at best without additional image processing or HUGE objective or other additional modifications (boosting post-amp for example). CCDs were made for visible band, which has MUCH higher signal than noise during the daytime, but when night falls, the CCD is signal starved. Granted, there are things you can do to combat that, but probably not practical. SWIR is probably the next logical step as it works day and night, cheaper cost. Good post here. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Thanks for writing back and the kind words.
So you know, I could also see well with the Supervision under "under the right circumstances." Their viewfinder is still the best of the best I've ever seen.
I understand some folks cannot get into a Gen 3. They're are other options such as the M845 Gen 2 SHP with a L3 tube that is probably the best dollar per resolution at 2K. Understood it has a bit less magnification but can be used in all night time circumstances with no frame rate hits which is a huge limitation for most if not all digi devices. I've always liked the idea of digital and I REALLY like the video out functions, which can be such a powerful tool for LE type duties. The Elcan Digi Day/Night Hunter has been out for awhile now and I used this on many occasions. Just not sure how this new entry is above the Elcan unit except we're seeing a bit more advertising from the Pulsar folks. We saw the same thing from the Supervision, but those folks were on a whole other level of creative marketing to say the least. I think the Pulsar folks learned a bit from Supervisions creative style of marketing, and do not seem to making the same mistakes.
Vic Vic, Not surprisingly, you make some very good points about both the pros and cons of digi. My recollection of the big negatives when using the Supervision (which is not the subject device of this thread, but has similar characteristics) were: 1) Required active IR to be useful in most ambient conditions. 2) Slow refresh rate, even under favorable ambient conditions. 3) "Flared" bigtime if any comparatively bright sources were present in the FoV. 4) Sucked down the proprietary batteries 2-3x faster than one could recharge spares. 5) Minimum focal distance of 10-15'. The positives were: 1) Digital magnification seemed to work OK. 2) Vid out capability is beneficial. All, (Vic, BB, David, Dino) does this sound about right from your experience? Now that I have been using thermal devices more and more, which are also digital of course, albeit with different lenses and sensors, appreciation for the concept is very real. Aspects such as integrated range finding, atmospheric measurement, gyroscopic measurement, GPS positioning, and associated ballistic correction come to mind.....the stuff that the real deal Tier 1 guys have available. Just as thermal cannot produce equivalent resolution to conventional I^2 at consumer level price point, digital NV seems to be in the same boat just now, but that should evolve. Think about how "smart" smartphones have become. You are also dead nuts on about the M845-2SHP being an extremely good value these days for the economically-constrained shopper. I was quite skeptical (and most of y'all well know that I am about the biggest cynic that exists) when presented with the opportunity to T&E one earlier this year (which was sourced from other than TNVC, by the way), and was equally pleasantly surprised with the quality of performance. It is definitely not a high end Gen3 device, but it is leaps and bounds better than anything else available at the price point, including digi.... effective at 100y w/o active IR under very dark ambient, and even better with active IR and/or decent lunar phase. J, you are correct with your memory of the SV unit. I did not mention your items 3-5 in my response in this thread. (My head still kinda hurts when I go back to memory on that review). 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The movies. Where Ahnold or the Predator have source recognition, range, movement, heat signature and associated on a visual display. Digital will move toward that. In "the movies", suppressors don't make any sound at all; in real life, supersonic projectiles actually do. But projectiles aren't suppressors. And in the movies it's called a silencer. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Typical CCD has bad response past 1000nm. Coupled with right optics (proper material and coating), it's satisfactory at best without additional image processing or HUGE objective or other additional modifications (boosting post-amp for example). CCDs were made for visible band, which has MUCH higher signal than noise during the daytime, but when night falls, the CCD is signal starved. Granted, there are things you can do to combat that, but probably not practical. SWIR is probably the next logical step as it works day and night, cheaper cost. Good post here. It has the potential to be a GREAT post if either he (XCQTR) or you have the time to explain in greater detail what he is specifically talking about. My hours of research and use make me think I know what he means but being shown always has greater impact.... I take what he says to mean the following:
Whether I interpreted what he said correctly is minute comparative to further explanation along the lines of improving the system. What IR illuminator is best and what IR coated lense could be used as a replacement to the Sony. Granted the latter above would void a warranty but after 3 years and out of warranty the decision to make those changes would be easier, also someone with technical knowledge on how the Pulsar is constructed would be able to tell us if the lense is even removable. I anxiously await further enlightenment....
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| I believe what he is saying is that swir cameras will be the ticket so to speak. They can see in day and night time environments and the data can be transferred very easily on video not like i^2. Iirc night glow also helps swir cameras out a great deal reflecting light on objects to give them a very great image. It's been awhile since I've read up on the technology so I may be incorrect. |
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Quoted:
J, you are correct with your memory of the SV unit. I did not mention your items 3-5 in my response in this thread. (My head still kinda hurts when I go back to memory on that review). I almost forgot one....the need to constantly adjust the focus manually. It was indeed a tough device to work with when one is used to I^2.
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Digital NV (Page 1 of 2)
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