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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Pvs14 (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 8/21/2011 1:15:18 AM EDT
| Would it be fine to mount a Pvs14 on top of a SCAR 17? |
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The 7.62×51mm round is way to powerful and could damage your tube. .223 is fine. +1 here. Also if the the tube is under warranty, it may void your warranty if on a weapon above 5,56. Vic You bring up a good point. What does the warranty say for the AN/PVS-14 contract overruns? I ask because that's what I bought from you, and I know the tube warranty is only for 2 years as opposed to 5 on the Night Enforcers, but I don't remember seeing anything about caliber restrictions. Do the military models specify anything? Not that I think the military would ever send anything out for warranty repair. |
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I know ITT says nothing above .223 regardless of milspec or not. Now, they sell a weapons grade tube they warranty for higher calibers. I believe TNVC will warranty up to 6.8 SPC. In all honesty ITT should also but they cover their butt like any other manufacturer. Plus, they want you to buy the WG tube that costs more. Why it costs more is beyond me. I guess they do it to cover the costs on the small percentage of tubes that fail.
Milspec and commercial tubes are the same. Milspec tubes just went through all the tests and passed. Commercial tubes may or may not pass but it is hard to know because they don't go through the same testing. They may run a batch test but usually not on every tube. Night Enforcer tubes are tested and come with a data card to prove specs but even those don't get the full battery of milspec tests. I think they run batch tests to select the group they want to further test for milspec. The others may pass also but they just slate them for commercial grade even though they may pass all the tests. Seen the process at NG but half of what I saw I didn't understand at the time. |
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I too have a SCAR 17S and wanting an NV as the OP. After reading THIS POST, I got all excited and started looking at the PVS-14 Litton Gen3 Autogated. It would have been the perfect set-up with my Aimpoint CompM4.
...But now, after running across this thread... 
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DO NOT PUT YOUR PVS-14 ON A .308 RIFLE NO MATTER WHAT SALESMEN TELLS YOU IT'S OK. THE BODY HOUSING OF A PVS-14 ITSELF IS NOT MADE FOR HIGH RECOIL AND DOES NOT ENCAPSULATE THE TUBE WELL AT ALL NO MATTER WHO MAKES THE TUBE! THERE IS A REASON THE PVS-22/PVS-27 FROM FLIR USE A PATENTED SHOCK MITIGATION UNIT IN THEIR SYSTEMS....AND YES THEY USE THE SAME TUBES IN A NON-MIL OR MILSPEC INTO THEIR SYSTEMS THAT GO IN A WHOLE BIG BUNCH OF PVS-14'S AS WELL. Vic |
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Quoted: DO NOT PUT YOUR PVS-14 ON A .308 RIFLE NO MATTER WHAT SALESMEN TELLS YOU IT'S OK. THE BODY HOUSING OF A PVS-14 ITSELF IS NOT MADE FOR HIGH RECOIL AND DOES NOT ENCAPSULATE THE TUBE WELL AT ALL NO MATTER WHO MAKES THE TUBE! THERE IS A REASON THE PVS-22/PVS-27 FROM FLIR USE A PATENTED SHOCK MITIGATION UNIT IN THEIR SYSTEMS....AND YES THEY USE THE SAME TUBES IN A NON-MIL OR MILSPEC INTO THEIR SYSTEMS THAT GO IN A WHOLE BIG BUNCH OF PVS-14'S AS WELL. Vic +1... The only Gen3 thin-film tube manufacturers are ITT and Litton and you have only three choices for recoil mitigation... Very large halo and non-autogating tube or weapons-grade tube or shock mitigation built into the housing such as the PVS-22/PVS-27 have. THE PVS-14 DOES NOT HAVE THIS BUILT IN. Regards David |
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DO NOT PUT YOUR PVS-14 ON A .308 RIFLE NO MATTER WHAT SALESMEN TELLS YOU IT'S OK. THE BODY HOUSING OF A PVS-14 ITSELF IS NOT MADE FOR HIGH RECOIL AND DOES NOT ENCAPSULATE THE TUBE WELL AT ALL NO MATTER WHO MAKES THE TUBE! THERE IS A REASON THE PVS-22/PVS-27 FROM FLIR USE A PATENTED SHOCK MITIGATION UNIT IN THEIR SYSTEMS....AND YES THEY USE THE SAME TUBES IN A NON-MIL OR MILSPEC INTO THEIR SYSTEMS THAT GO IN A WHOLE BIG BUNCH OF PVS-14'S AS WELL. Vic Another +1 . The 14 was always designed to be head mounted. Rifle mounting was a afterthought and they found it could handle .223 just fine. .308 ??? Have the funeral home on speed dial. 
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How is Larue getting special tubes that will hold up to 308? Funny you should ask that. The answer to your question is they aren't. Why they say a PVS-14 will stand up to a .308 is beyond my knowledge. They should explain why it is special. I have bought the Larue PVS-14 Xmas special just last Xmas. First thing I do is take it apart to see what is under the hood. I find a AEO tube. Nothing wrong with that and lots of dealers use AEO tubes. AEO buys new modules , warranty returns and modules with defective power supply's from L3 (Litton). They strip them, repot them with new power supply's and sell them to dealers. Now, Larue does not make any night vision, their PVS-14's are made by Sight Mark. They are well known and in Larue's scopes they used AEO tubes in new PVS-14 housings. I stripped it apart to its bare bones and assure you that they have no magic dust inside to allow it to withstand a .308. Just a run of the mill average tube in a PVS-14 housing. I will post some pics. Have more if any questions arise. I should think this will end any speculation. The Larue PVS-14 or any other PVS-14 for that matter should not be used on a .308 . I beg to differ with anyone who says it is OK. 
As you can see these are normal tubes and they do not come with any data cards to prove specs. They are not weapons grade tubes. Just your normal AEO tube you see all the time. They also say in the post that "Our supplier tells me they are built using the same tubes used in the M2124 (PVS24)" . My understanding is the PVS-24 uses factory Litton Omega tubes and NOT AEO tubes. The PVS-24 is rated for .308 while a PVS-14 most certainly IS NOT. Tube aside I am not even sure the housing itself will stand up to repeated abuse from a .308 platform. Just my .02
Even if Larue changed suppliers and they are using some other tube in a PVS-14 it STILL is not rated for a .308 . If you put a Weapons grade ITT tube in a PVS-14, ITT will not warranty it. Bottom line is the housing is not made for that kind of abuse. I like Larue products and own many items but in this case they are wrong. |
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How is Larue getting special tubes that will hold up to 308? Funny you should ask that. The answer to your question is they aren't. Why they say a PVS-14 will stand up to a .308 is beyond my knowledge. They should explain why it is special. I have bought the Larue PVS-14 Xmas special just last Xmas. First thing I do is take it apart to see what is under the hood. I find a AEO tube. Nothing wrong with that and lots of dealers use AEO tubes. AEO buys new modules , warranty returns and modules with defective power supply's from L3 (Litton). They strip them, repot them with new power supply's and sell them to dealers. Now, Larue does not make any night vision, their PVS-14's are made by Sight Mark. They are well known and in Larue's scopes they used AEO tubes in new PVS-14 housings. I stripped it apart to its bare bones and assure you that they have no magic dust inside to allow it to withstand a .308. Just a run of the mill average tube in a PVS-14 housing. I will post some pics. Have more if any questions arise. I should think this will end any speculation. The Larue PVS-14 or any other PVS-14 for that matter should not be used on a .308 . I beg to differ with anyone who says it is OK.
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/244/gen3pinnacle011.jpg http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6748/gen3pinnacle010.jpg http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/927/gen3pinnacle009.jpg http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/2229/gen3pinnacle007.jpg http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3987/gen3pinnacle006.jpg http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5192/gen3pinnacle005.jpg As you can see these are normal tubes and they do not come with any data cards to prove specs. They are not weapons grade tubes. Just your normal AEO tube you see all the time. They also say in the post that "Our supplier tells me they are built using the same tubes used in the M2124 (PVS24)" . My understanding is the PVS-24 uses factory Litton Omega tubes and NOT AEO tubes. The PVS-24 is rated for .308 while a PVS-14 most certainly IS NOT. Tube aside I am not even sure the housing itself will stand up to repeated abuse from a .308 platform. Just my .02
Even if Larue changed suppliers and they are using some other tube in a PVS-14 it STILL is not rated for a .308 . If you put a Weapons grade ITT tube in a PVS-14, ITT will not warranty it. Bottom line is the housing is not made for that kind of abuse. I like Larue products and own many items but in this case they are wrong. Dino, as always, u are the man, glad u share your knowledge here!!! |
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Wish there were greater NV options for the .308 platform ($10,000 clip-on isn't an option). Aren't Raptors also "rated" for higher recoil systems? One could use an Omni IV tube for the balance of performance between image quality and recoil tolerance....the latest isn't always the greatest. 
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Wish there were greater NV options for the .308 platform ($10,000 clip-on isn't an option). Aren't Raptors also "rated" for higher recoil systems?... Raptors are very nice. But now you're stuck with a dedicated 4x or 6x rifle scope. Evidently, there's nothing that allows .308 owners to co-witness NVDs with an RDS, like the .223 platforms can with PVS-14, etc.. |
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Wish there were greater NV options for the .308 platform ($10,000 clip-on isn't an option). Aren't Raptors also "rated" for higher recoil systems?... Raptors are very nice. But now you're stuck with a dedicated 4x or 6x rifle scope. Evidently, there's nothing that allows .308 owners to co-witness NVDs with an RDS, like the .223 platforms can with PVS-14, etc.. I don't know that "stuck" is an appropriate characterization. I run a D-740 on my carbine and a PVS-14 on my helmet, and couldn't be happier; if one wants/needs to CQB, that is what lasers are for. |
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Wish there were greater NV options for the .308 platform ($10,000 clip-on isn't an option). Aren't Raptors also "rated" for higher recoil systems?... Raptors are very nice. But now you're stuck with a dedicated 4x or 6x rifle scope. Evidently, there's nothing that allows .308 owners to co-witness NVDs with an RDS, like the .223 platforms can with PVS-14, etc.. I don't know that "stuck" is an appropriate characterization. I run a D-740 on my carbine and a PVS-14 on my helmet, and couldn't be happier; if one wants/needs to CQB, that is what lasers are for. +1 |
| I got a couple emails egging me on to post this in the Larue forum. I find it in bad taste to do this. Larue sells some fine products and I am a proud owner of many of them. This is not a war with Larue. I just think they are relying on bad information from their suppliers who have "sales" at the top of the list. I have no issue with Larue. I just want correct information to be available for those who want to use night vision. That is the goal of this forum. |
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Wish there were greater NV options for the .308 platform ($10,000 clip-on isn't an option). Aren't Raptors also "rated" for higher recoil systems?... Raptors are very nice. But now you're stuck with a dedicated 4x or 6x rifle scope. Evidently, there's nothing that allows .308 owners to co-witness NVDs with an RDS, like the .223 platforms can with PVS-14, etc.. I don't know that "stuck" is an appropriate characterization. I run a D-740 on my carbine and a PVS-14 on my helmet, and couldn't be happier; if one wants/needs to CQB, that is what lasers are for. What is max. distance for lasers? Say helmet mounted pvs-14 with my 12.5" 308 rifle hunting hogs? |
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Wish there were greater NV options for the .308 platform ($10,000 clip-on isn't an option). Aren't Raptors also "rated" for higher recoil systems?... Raptors are very nice. But now you're stuck with a dedicated 4x or 6x rifle scope. Evidently, there's nothing that allows .308 owners to co-witness NVDs with an RDS, like the .223 platforms can with PVS-14, etc.. I don't know that "stuck" is an appropriate characterization. I run a D-740 on my carbine and a PVS-14 on my helmet, and couldn't be happier; if one wants/needs to CQB, that is what lasers are for. What is max. distance for lasers? Say helmet mounted pvs-14 with my 12.5" 308 rifle hunting hogs? The four or five IR lasers I own or have owned are usable to 150m. After that, the dot starts growing pretty quick making precise shots unlikely. The PAQ-4c had the cleanest dot of all, and stayed small quite a bit further but was pretty dim. |
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What is max. distance for lasers? Say helmet mounted pvs-14 with my 12.5" 308 rifle hunting hogs? This thread has become relatively complex with the variety of interrelated considerations, and I am not the expert that some of the other posters are...simply a somewhat educated user. I can't particularly comment on the EFFECTIVE range of lasers as an aiming device in the context of hog hunting, as I have never really used one for that specific purpose, although they can be very handy for target designation when acting as a spotter in conjunction with an NV-equipped hunter. It seems as though some folks often employ a 3x magnifier when using the "somewhat common" combination of a weapon-mounted PVS-14 and RDS such as an EOThingy or AP on a 5.56 for hog hunting. This implies to me that 3-4x mag is actually beneficial for the typical engagement range of say 75-100m, and is consistent with my experience using a 740. During daylight, folks might surmise that magnification is not "needed" at such short range, but safely sending a projectile downrange in the dark in a non-mil application is fundamentally different from my perspective. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall hearing conversation that L3-tubed 740's might tolerate 7.62x51 level recoil on a gas gun? The more knowledgeable folks can confirm or deny. An alternative might be to find a more recoil tolerant OMNI IV tube with a reasonably high HALO, and to put it in a 740 housing, essentially a "poor man's" Raptor. Maybe, I am completely out in left field? |
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Wish there were greater NV options for the .308 platform ($10,000 clip-on isn't an option). Aren't Raptors also "rated" for higher recoil systems?... Raptors are very nice. But now you're stuck with a dedicated 4x or 6x rifle scope. Evidently, there's nothing that allows .308 owners to co-witness NVDs with an RDS, like the .223 platforms can with PVS-14, etc.. I don't know that "stuck" is an appropriate characterization. I run a D-740 on my carbine and a PVS-14 on my helmet, and couldn't be happier; if one wants/needs to CQB, that is what lasers are for. What is max. distance for lasers? Say helmet mounted pvs-14 with my 12.5" 308 rifle hunting hogs? This should be on a separate thread. The real question should be how far is the max distance one can positively ID a target with a 1.1x PVS-14? But to answer your questions simply...The max distance of a typical Class 1 IR is 250 yards, more than you can REALLY target ID effectively with a 1.1x PVS-14. (Typical human standing, approx, 100-150 yards in no moon, dark environment). Hope this helps.
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What is max. distance for lasers? Say helmet mounted pvs-14 with my 12.5" 308 rifle hunting hogs? This thread has become relatively complex with the variety of interrelated considerations, and I am not the expert that some of the other posters are...simply a somewhat educated user. I can't particularly comment on the EFFECTIVE range of lasers as an aiming device in the context of hog hunting, as I have never really used one for that specific purpose, although they can be very handy for target designation when acting as a spotter in conjunction with an NV-equipped hunter. It seems as though some folks often employ a 3x magnifier when using the "somewhat common" combination of a weapon-mounted PVS-14 and RDS such as an EOThingy or AP on a 5.56 for hog hunting. This implies to me that 3-4x mag is actually beneficial for the typical engagement range of say 75-100m, and is consistent with my experience using a 740. During daylight, folks might surmise that magnification is not "needed" at such short range, but safely sending a projectile downrange in the dark in a non-mil application is fundamentally different from my perspective. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall hearing conversation that L3-tubed 740's might tolerate 7.62x51 level recoil on a gas gun? The more knowledgeable folks can confirm or deny. An alternative might be to find a more recoil tolerant OMNI IV tube with a reasonably high HALO, and to put it in a 740 housing, essentially a "poor man's" Raptor. Maybe, I am completely out in left field? So HALO numbers somehow relate to how well a tube can withstand recoil? What does a higher HALO number imply, other than larger blooming around bright light sources? |
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Halo numbers are a direct correlation to how close the MCP is to the photo-cathode. The closer it is the lower the halo and better the image. Getting it to close comes with risks. The MCP can flex and strike the PC causing permanent damage. So it is a trade off of sorts. Everybody wants the best image but to get that it makes the tube more fragile and recoil sensitive. Weapons grade tubes have a halo value of around 1.25 . Most peoples PVS-14 have halo values well below that.
My personal unit is like .49 or something close to that. I would never put it on a rifle. I use a laser or go with a dedicated rifle scope. |
| Okay, I actually do remember reading about that a while ago, makes sense. Now is there any other variable that affects HALO numbers, or is it purely related to the spacing between the MCP an PC? I have a tube with a moderate HALO of .95 in a PVS14 and am still thinking I will refrain from mounting it on a DI 5.56 and stick with helmet mounted. Is this paranoia, and will ITT warranty a tube damaged on 5.56? |
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Okay, I actually do remember reading about that a while ago, makes sense. Now is there any other variable that affects HALO numbers, or is it purely related to the spacing between the MCP an PC? I have a tube with a moderate HALO of .95 in a PVS14 and am still thinking I will refrain from mounting it on a DI 5.56 and stick with helmet mounted. Is this paranoia, and will ITT warranty a tube damaged on 5.56? .95 is fairly safe to be honest with you. ITT will warranty 5.56 . The only thing in a tube that affects halo is the spacing as far as I am aware. CJ7Hawk had some nice illustrations showing how it happens. Pretty simple really and maybe he can re-post the drawings and info. |
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Originally Phttp://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?a=quote&b=6&f=18&t=350051&r=3182527&page=2osted By IFBBjuicemonkey:
Okay, I actually do remember reading about that a while ago, makes sense. Now is there any other variable that affects HALO numbers, or is it purely related to the spacing between the MCP an PC? I have a tube with a moderate HALO of .95 in a PVS14 and am still thinking I will refrain from mounting it on a DI 5.56 and stick with helmet mounted. Is this paranoia, and will ITT warranty a tube damaged on 5.56? .95 is fairly safe to be honest with you. ITT will warranty 5.56 . The only thing in a tube that affects halo is the spacing as far as I am aware. CJ7Hawk had some nice illustrations showing how it happens. Pretty simple really and maybe he can re-post the drawings and info. I guess I'm just hesitant to mount this specific PVS14 as it is my only NVD currently, and while ITT may warranty and replace the tube, I have a feeling I would not be so lucky as I was the first time around and end up with a tube that has inferior specs to my current tube which has PCS: 2354, @830: 269, EBI: 0.92, Res: 64 and a S/N of 30.4 I feel like I really lucked out in getting this tube and I will probably be a little overprotective of it as it took me well over a year to save for it. So i would assume that a higher HALO would also make the tube slightly more durable in general? I would be interested to see the illustrations, I will try a search for them. |
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Originally Phttp://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?a=quote&b=6&f=18&t=350051&r=3182527&page=2osted By IFBBjuicemonkey:
Okay, I actually do remember reading about that a while ago, makes sense. Now is there any other variable that affects HALO numbers, or is it purely related to the spacing between the MCP an PC? I have a tube with a moderate HALO of .95 in a PVS14 and am still thinking I will refrain from mounting it on a DI 5.56 and stick with helmet mounted. Is this paranoia, and will ITT warranty a tube damaged on 5.56? .95 is fairly safe to be honest with you. ITT will warranty 5.56 . The only thing in a tube that affects halo is the spacing as far as I am aware. CJ7Hawk had some nice illustrations showing how it happens. Pretty simple really and maybe he can re-post the drawings and info. I guess I'm just hesitant to mount this specific PVS14 as it is my only NVD currently, and while ITT may warranty and replace the tube, I have a feeling I would not be so lucky as I was the first time around and end up with a tube that has inferior specs to my current tube which has PCS: 2354, @830: 269, EBI: 0.92, Res: 64 and a S/N of 30.4 I feel like I really lucked out in getting this tube and I will probably be a little overprotective of it as it took me well over a year to save for it. So i would assume that a higher HALO would also make the tube slightly more durable in general? I would be interested to see the illustrations, I will try a search for them. Yes higher halo is usually more durable but ANY tube can fail and nobody I know can predict which ones will. But they usually are lower halo value tubes. Very nice tube you have. Take good care of it !
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Quoted: Sorry for all the off topic questions. I have a lot of them and I don't want to start a new thread, as I figured this was frowned on. As far as the laser questions go I've never seen one in person or a night optic so I have nothing to go on. If no one ever started a new thread, this thread would be kinda long by now Yes, Halo is entirely to do with spacing between the PC and MCP however autogating also affects recoil capability... Modern autogated tubes are more likely to be damaged than older, DC PSU based tubes. Regards David
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What is max. distance for lasers? Say helmet mounted pvs-14 with my 12.5" 308 rifle hunting hogs? I was getting easy hits at 300 meters with a PEQ2 on an M4A1 and helmet mounted PVS 18. That was on a steel target, and the sparks when the round hit were really cool. |
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They are kept pinned at the top of the forum: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/340822_What_you_will_find_inside_an_image_tube__article_for_those_who_are_truly_bored_or_interested_.html Quoted: Quoted: Originally Phttp://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?a=quote&b=6&f=18&t=350051&r=3182527&page=2osted By IFBBjuicemonkey: Okay, I actually do remember reading about that a while ago, makes sense. Now is there any other variable that affects HALO numbers, or is it purely related to the spacing between the MCP an PC? I have a tube with a moderate HALO of .95 in a PVS14 and am still thinking I will refrain from mounting it on a DI 5.56 and stick with helmet mounted. Is this paranoia, and will ITT warranty a tube damaged on 5.56? .95 is fairly safe to be honest with you. ITT will warranty 5.56 . The only thing in a tube that affects halo is the spacing as far as I am aware. CJ7Hawk had some nice illustrations showing how it happens. Pretty simple really and maybe he can re-post the drawings and info. I guess I'm just hesitant to mount this specific PVS14 as it is my only NVD currently, and while ITT may warranty and replace the tube, I have a feeling I would not be so lucky as I was the first time around and end up with a tube that has inferior specs to my current tube which has PCS: 2354, @830: 269, EBI: 0.92, Res: 64 and a S/N of 30.4 I feel like I really lucked out in getting this tube and I will probably be a little overprotective of it as it took me well over a year to save for it. So i would assume that a higher HALO would also make the tube slightly more durable in general? I would be interested to see the illustrations, I will try a search for them. |
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To the OP, we have some further info after talking with L3 yesterday. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_18/352794_PVS_14_s_on__308_s_or_Higher_.html
We already knew about ITT's PVS-14's for awhile, and just yesterday we had a great conversation with L3. Hope this helps.
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On yet another related subject 
What is this Christmas Special of which you speak?? I am going to get a night enforcer...should I wait until Christmas or even SHOT show?? Thanks guys! Actually it varies from year to year. What we try to do each and every year is severely discount a chosen unit for a short time. We've never had a NE unit up for Christmas sale, just L3 Gen 3's and Gen 2 SHP's. Hope this helps. Vic |
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DO NOT PUT YOUR PVS-14 ON A .308 RIFLE NO MATTER WHAT SALESMEN TELLS YOU IT'S OK. THE BODY HOUSING OF A PVS-14 ITSELF IS NOT MADE FOR HIGH RECOIL AND DOES NOT ENCAPSULATE THE TUBE WELL AT ALL NO MATTER WHO MAKES THE TUBE! THERE IS A REASON THE PVS-22/PVS-27 FROM FLIR USE A PATENTED SHOCK MITIGATION UNIT IN THEIR SYSTEMS....AND YES THEY USE THE SAME TUBES IN A NON-MIL OR MILSPEC INTO THEIR SYSTEMS THAT GO IN A WHOLE BIG BUNCH OF PVS-14'S AS WELL. Vic Vic, Since it's decidedly pile on ol' LaRue tonight in ARF's starlight room ... " In this thread " , not so long ago, it sure looked like you might have sold the man a PVS-14 after saying "MANY" folks were having good success slapping them on .308s, yeah, I can read the "not recommended" part, but still, to the untrained eye, you didn't have a problem with it at all (see the word MANY you put in caps) 
I can read well enough with enough lights on, and certainly well enough to read between the lines. And holy cow, now I see that someone might *GASP* put their eye out or sumpin'. Cats and dogs living together - - - mass hysteria. 
ML #1235229 - 07/12/09 08:19 AM Re: What can you do with a PVS-14? [Re: jeepone] Victor-TNVC Sergeant Registered: 08/04/07 Posts: 299 Loc: USA Thought I would chime in, sorry it took awhile I just spotted the post. While we do not recommend a PVS-14 on anything larger than a 6.8, MANY folk still use it on a .308 (MAX) with good results. <snip> Blah, blah, blah. |
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I don't personally care what any dealer says. Not really important here. What is important is ITT and L3 (who are the manufacturers and designers of the PVS-14) both say NOT to put this scope on anything above a 5.56. These guys made the darn thing and have sold hundreds of thousands. If you put it on a higher caliber you do so at your own risk. Neither ITT or L3 will stand behind it.
Is that important to me ? Sure is ! I always will revert back to the guy who designed the scope. Just like if I was buying a mount Larue made (which I have many of) I would trust what you say the capabilities are of the product. Pretty cut and dry for me. I think it is unsafe and risky to use this product in a way it was not designed for. Will it hold up ? Don't know but until L3 or ITT says it is good to go on a .308 I will stick to 5.56 or better yet just head mount it and use a IR laser. Not picking a fight. I am just stating the facts as supplied by the engineers and manufacturers who made the PVS-14. If special testing has been done to assure people the scope will hold up to a .308 platform I feel it should be posted for guys to see. Some bet their life on these scopes. Just my .02 |
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I don't personally care what any dealer says. Not really important here. What is important is ITT and L3 (who are the manufacturers and designers of the PVS-14) both say NOT to put this scope on anything above a 5.56. These guys made the darn thing and have sold hundreds of thousands. If you put it on a higher caliber you do so at your own risk. Neither ITT or L3 will stand behind it. Is that important to me ? Sure is ! I always will revert back to the guy who designed the scope. Just like if I was buying a mount Larue made (which I have many of) I would trust what you say the capabilities are of the product. Pretty cut and dry for me. I think it is unsafe and risky to use this product in a way it was not designed for. Will it hold up ? Don't know but until L3 or ITT says it is good to go on a .308 I will stick to 5.56 or better yet just head mount it and use a IR laser. Not picking a fight. I am just stating the facts as supplied by the engineers and manufacturers who made the PVS-14. If special testing has been done to assure people the scope will hold up to a .308 platform I feel it should be posted for guys to see. Some bet their life on these scopes. Just my .02 Well, Vic, a dealer (OMG !), plainly said in his post not that long ago that "MANY folks" have had smashing (pun intended) success with it. They either have or they haven't. Just reporting what I'm reading here.
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DO NOT PUT YOUR PVS-14 ON A .308 RIFLE NO MATTER WHAT SALESMEN TELLS YOU IT'S OK. THE BODY HOUSING OF A PVS-14 ITSELF IS NOT MADE FOR HIGH RECOIL AND DOES NOT ENCAPSULATE THE TUBE WELL AT ALL NO MATTER WHO MAKES THE TUBE! THERE IS A REASON THE PVS-22/PVS-27 FROM FLIR USE A PATENTED SHOCK MITIGATION UNIT IN THEIR SYSTEMS....AND YES THEY USE THE SAME TUBES IN A NON-MIL OR MILSPEC INTO THEIR SYSTEMS THAT GO IN A WHOLE BIG BUNCH OF PVS-14'S AS WELL. Vic Vic, Since it's decidedly pile on ol' LaRue tonight in ARF's starlight room ... " In this thread " , not so long ago, it sure looked like you might have sold the man a PVS-14 after saying "MANY" folks were having good success slapping them on .308s, yeah, I can read the "not recommended" part, but still, to the untrained eye, you didn't have a problem with it at all (see the word MANY you put in caps)
I can read well enough with enough lights on, and certainly well enough to read between the lines. And holy cow, now I see that someone might *GASP* put their eye out or sumpin'. Cats and dogs living together - - - mass hysteria.
ML #1235229 - 07/12/09 08:19 AM Re: What can you do with a PVS-14? [Re: jeepone] Victor-TNVC Sergeant Registered: 08/04/07 Posts: 299 Loc: USA Thought I would chime in, sorry it took awhile I just spotted the post. While we do not recommend a PVS-14 on anything larger than a 6.8, MANY folk still use it on a .308 (MAX) with good results. <snip> Blah, blah, blah. Funny Mark, we all live and learn and that is what we all do here at TNVC. We evolved and after several failures of PVS-14's on .308's,from 2009. We lived and learned from ITT as well as L3, the manufacturer. After all this is what we do.
No mysteries here, just the manufacturer telling us what to expect and any mount maker should know taking one look at a mounting point of any PVS-14 system it's not made for sustained hi recoil. We and a few found out the hard way so we hope our lessons learned will assist you with some NV education as we've kinda been doing this for awhile. Vic Edited: As for the "pile on" Mark, you might want hang here on the NV forum a bit more. Never really seen you here or talk much technical about NV...Nobody piling on anyone, a great many of learn around here as they've been at this NV stuff for a long time.
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<snip> Funny Mark, we all live and learn and that is what we all do here at TNVC. We evolved and after several failures of PVS-14's on .308's,from 2009. We lived and learned from ITT as well as L3, the manufacturer. After all this is what we do.
No mysteries here, just the manufacturer telling us what to expect and any mount maker should know taking one look at a mounting point of any PVS-14 system it's not made for sustained hi recoil. We and a few found out the hard way so we hope our lessons learned will assist you with some NV education as we've kinda been doing this for awhile. Vic Roger that Vic, so how many have you had a 308 break, keeping in mind that you know and have stated that "MANY" have had great success with it ? ETA - for a snip
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<snip> Funny Mark, we all live and learn and that is what we all do here at TNVC. We evolved and after several failures of PVS-14's on .308's,from 2009. We lived and learned from ITT as well as L3, the manufacturer. After all this is what we do.
No mysteries here, just the manufacturer telling us what to expect and any mount maker should know taking one look at a mounting point of any PVS-14 system it's not made for sustained hi recoil. We and a few found out the hard way so we hope our lessons learned will assist you with some NV education as we've kinda been doing this for awhile. Vic Roger that Vic, so how many have you had a 308 break, keeping in mind that you know and have stated that "MANY" have had great success with it ? ETA - for a snip Over a dozen tubes, and 2 body housings that cracked at the mount points. The whole point is Mark BOTH manufacturers ITT/L3 do not recommend putting a PVS-14 on a .308. We listen to the manufacturers for good reason, not suppliers. |
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<snip> Funny Mark, we all live and learn and that is what we all do here at TNVC. We evolved and after several failures of PVS-14's on .308's,from 2009. We lived and learned from ITT as well as L3, the manufacturer. After all this is what we do.
No mysteries here, just the manufacturer telling us what to expect and any mount maker should know taking one look at a mounting point of any PVS-14 system it's not made for sustained hi recoil. We and a few found out the hard way so we hope our lessons learned will assist you with some NV education as we've kinda been doing this for awhile. Vic Roger that Vic, so how many have you had a 308 break, keeping in mind that you know and have stated that "MANY" have had great success with it ? ETA - for a snip Over a dozen tubes, and 2 body housings that cracked at the mount points. The whole point is Mark BOTH manufacturers ITT/L3 do not recommend putting a PVS-14 on a .308. We listen to the manufacturers for good reason, not suppliers. Given that you've stated you're fine with the 6.8's recoil (a 270), what proof have you that the 308 had anything to do with the few there's been issues with ? As for the manufacturers, I get why they don't recommend you do much more than keep them packed in cotton.
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<snip> Funny Mark, we all live and learn and that is what we all do here at TNVC. We evolved and after several failures of PVS-14's on .308's,from 2009. We lived and learned from ITT as well as L3, the manufacturer. After all this is what we do.
No mysteries here, just the manufacturer telling us what to expect and any mount maker should know taking one look at a mounting point of any PVS-14 system it's not made for sustained hi recoil. We and a few found out the hard way so we hope our lessons learned will assist you with some NV education as we've kinda been doing this for awhile. Vic Roger that Vic, so how many have you had a 308 break, keeping in mind that you know and have stated that "MANY" have had great success with it ? ETA - for a snip Over a dozen tubes, and 2 body housings that cracked at the mount points. The whole point is Mark BOTH manufacturers ITT/L3 do not recommend putting a PVS-14 on a .308. We listen to the manufacturers for good reason, not suppliers. Given that you've stated you're fine with the 6.8's recoil (a 270), what proof have you that the 308 had anything to do with the few there's been issues with ? As for the manufacturers, I get why they don't recommend you do much more than keep them packed in cotton.
Mark, this is a bad idea. You have tons of night vision experts in this forum. Not your line of expertise ! I don't want to do this but if it persists I am going to show the facts from the people who designed and manufactured the scope. Both Larue and TNVC are highly respected company's here on the ARF. I like your products but I truly believe your supplier is feeding you a load of crap. I have bought your scope and taken it apart to its bare bones. I know the tube it contains as well as every aspect of the housing. I know who makes the tube and even the supplier. Call it done and let us move on ! This will get ugly and I don't think you will win , Not in the night vision forum. You are going to go up against guys who live for night vision every day. Mounts ? You are the best ! I love your products ! Night vision ? not your game. I don't want to see two IP's go at this. Not my intention or wish to beat anyone down. Call it a draw and let us move on.
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<snip> Funny Mark, we all live and learn and that is what we all do here at TNVC. We evolved and after several failures of PVS-14's on .308's,from 2009. We lived and learned from ITT as well as L3, the manufacturer. After all this is what we do.
No mysteries here, just the manufacturer telling us what to expect and any mount maker should know taking one look at a mounting point of any PVS-14 system it's not made for sustained hi recoil. We and a few found out the hard way so we hope our lessons learned will assist you with some NV education as we've kinda been doing this for awhile. Vic Roger that Vic, so how many have you had a 308 break, keeping in mind that you know and have stated that "MANY" have had great success with it ? ETA - for a snip Over a dozen tubes, and 2 body housings that cracked at the mount points. The whole point is Mark BOTH manufacturers ITT/L3 do not recommend putting a PVS-14 on a .308. We listen to the manufacturers for good reason, not suppliers. Given that you've stated you're fine with the 6.8's recoil (a 270), what proof have you that the 308 had anything to do with the few there's been issues with ? As for the manufacturers, I get why they don't recommend you do much more than keep them packed in cotton.
We sent all the units to the manufacturer where the warranty was voided for exceeding G-Loads. We've had several PVS-14's this year with voided warranties with recoil damage but no story book on what caliber for the units. The customers were a bit silent. But when those fancy machines the manufactures use that cost a ka-zillion dollars that test what G-loads caused tube damage, it was pretty clear cut.
Gotta agree with your filled with cotton comment...PVS-14's have nothing but air slamming those tubes into their own body housings.  Those gizmo's you put your mounts on called the clip-on's from OSTI (FLIR) pack a bit more than cotton in them and these are the ones all should be putting on those high cal boom sticks.
Edited, you do put a bit more mounts on clip-on's out there (did not want to leave that out), but all the rest seem to be filled with cotton except those OSTI units. The President from ITT showed up several years back to see for himself how good those OSTI units performed with BIG shootn' sticks. He left pretty amazed from what we're told. 
That real cotton must be good OSTI uses, because we've yet to have any units ever returned for recoil issues. Well we have had one return out of just a few leave the door over the years...Some big Marine stripped the power knob past the detent on a 27. To this day OSTI and us have never seen this feat ever topped!
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Hi Mark, You don't know me, but I'm a fan. I make stuff to attach NV to rifles and other things too, except I'm just some guy in his backyard, playing with his lathe and mill and covering his floor with swarf and cutting himself regularly on milling blades. I'm not an expert on such machining matters and I look up to the ideas that I see in your products for inspiration. ( Don't worry, I don't copy them ) However I do have a fair bit of experience in the matter of tubes failing under recoil. To date, I have conducted a lot of my research into this publicly. And as an engineer from other areas, I could get into a long and hopefully mutually enjoyable discussion with you about what I discovered. We could chat about the vibration harmonics of thin pieces of glass full of holes vibrating at resonant frequencies and how this makes it really difficult to predict when and what tubes will fail. If you'd like to join in there, I would welcome your experience. But as someone who has designed "instrinsically safe" technology to carry live voltage in open fuel tanks and similar projects, perhaps the only real thoughts I can offer you are related to liability. I don't care if someone cops a PVS-14 in the eye. I don't really care much if some hunter is inconvenienced by the fact his mount-point failed and his LaRue PVS-14 fell off his rifle and into the mud, because you'll warranty that right? But unless I miss my estimate and that's not something I do a lot, I see a high-risk scenario that you're facing with your product. Imagine a police officer who is, following a shooting incident of any type, investigated and it is found that their PVS-14 suffered recoil damage. Perhaps the wrong person was hit or perhaps the bullet didn't fly true - it doesn't matter - but post investigation, there is one constant. A PVS-14 failed and has image damage. This is a critical piece of equipment and I'd be surprised if the coroner doesn't notice and record this information. Now imagine that the grieving deceased's family discover this and learn that the device WAS NOT RATED for 7.62 use. In fact, BOTH MANUFACTURERS only rate this tube to 5.56mm. So they go to my tables ( yes, I publish tables on this ) and discover there's a HUGE difference in the recoil due to the increased diameter of the projectile. Now, they have a valid legal case to pursue against you, because you said your unit was RATED to 7.62. And what could you respond to such? That you tested it without failure? That your assembler said he'd cover warranty? Such a case would potentially wipe my favorite innovator out, because it's entirely foreseeable. As a suggestion, perhaps rather than claiming something in contradiction of the major manufacturers, you could just make clear you offer better warranty conditions - eg, "We will warranty recoil claims up to and including use on 7.62 caliber firearms, however we cannot guarantee continued and rated performance at this level". Of course, I am not a lawyer. I do have a long history of taking on large corporations and winning. Heck, I even beat Paypal and Ebay by myelf and convinced (legally) Ebay to compensate me for one of their customers overcharging me... But even then, I am still not a lawyer. But I would definitely check your claims with a lawyer, because I would not make them. Especially so because I understand the technology you're reselling. I honestly applaud you for selling systems with an improved warranty. I really do. But I would seriously caution you too, because I believe the claims may leave you very open to challenge and litigation and every comment you make on AR15 become evidence against you that remains forever. More so, you are an engineer, so it would not be possible to claim you could not have reasonably known of such dangers, because you have even had them pointed out to you. I could be wrong... Sometimes I am. But my thoughts are worth considering. :) Don't forget, even the big manufacturers get it wrong sometimes. Gen4 was an incredible technology. But it too suffered this fatal flaw and I bet Litton never considered what might happen if they suffered recoil damage like they did. Regards David p.s. There are other considerations to keep in mind. The engineering specs of the tubes don't extend to 7.62 with modern autogating tubes. I'd equally hate for a soldier to lose their NV capability during a firefight. And I'm sure you would too. |
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