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Posted: 12/24/2007 5:33:52 AM EDT
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Hi Guys, Wondered if anyone can help ? I remember seeing a while back a website/set of pictures taken through various NV devices. Pictures were all taken from the same location, 3-4th floor of appartment building looking over a grassed area at another appartment block. I seem to remember the following devices were used: Gen1 Gen2 Gen3 OmniV iirc Gen4 ? Ive had a fairly extensive look but cant seem to find them again, think they originated from a German website. Thanks in advance, Dave. |
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Excellent! Thanks for that L_L those are the pics ive seen before...... I dont suppose you have the link for the website they originally were on also ? :D Hi Sniper, http://sensor.northgrum.com/es/eos/PDF_Data_Sheets/mx10160B.pdf Northrop Grumman seem to think so :) Although the general concensus seems to be that the filmless tubes have reliability issues and that the performance increase is negligable also. Think thats the main reason the US Mil has rejected Gen4 for the foreseeable future until Gen4's issues can be sorted out ? Regards, Dave. |
Well... they did exist in testing only and I don't believe any ever made it outside if ITT or the Crane. That pesky 1000 hour life span and all. I read somewhere Litton is still perusing the idea but no new break through has been announced and you know they would be all over with news of that. Gen 4 is at the moment, a pipe dream IMHO. So for all intents and purposes or at least ours, I agree NO such beast. IPSC_GUY SIERRA II ALPHA |
Ohhh no Gen 4 is simply gen 3 minus the Ion Barrier. Pinnacle tubes achieved the needed level of performance with and Ion Barrier in place (albeit a very thin one but it is there) and a gated power supply. Nice benefit's are better resolution whi=en the bright light protection kicks in and lower Halo. IPSC_GUY SIERRA II ALPHA |
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What would make Gen IV? Something better than Gallium Arsenide for the ion barrier and a higher quality than 72 lp. However, when the military did some testing, they found that the human eye cannot discern the difference between 68 and 72 lp. They took ANVIS housings and put different configurations of 68 nd 72lp tubes in them and then asked the test subjects to judge what they had. The subjects gave results equivelent to guessing, so the military refuses to pay for higher than 72 lp. Right now, the money is being pumped into the NV/thermal combined technology. As IPSC Guy said, the thin film technology also has the effect of reducing the life of the tubes from 10,000 hours to 8,000 or less. While you see brighter images, your tubes start loosing a lot of life rather quickly. This info come directly from the PM doing goggle aquisition for the Army, that is why ANVIS V3 is the last generation that we will see for some time. |
Test examples have already reached over 100 lp/mm, resolution is not a problem. But human capabilities for detection based on monochromatic green or black/white (DEP ONYX) image are limited. Color images are inevitable in the future. Future development will be aimed at reduction of weight and measures of the devices rather than on increasing their raw performance which is more than sufficient even today. Smaller 16mm tubes ITT is currently working on are a good example of that (check ITT F2525 Mini-B aviators goggles). Future developments will render a classic tube design obsolete, in 50 years I can imagine some voltage-charged viscoelastic image-enhancing layer pressed between two layers of perspex glass of your Bolle goggles completely obliterating a need for a specialized NV device. |
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I'm pretty curious about the Gen IV tubes myself. I asked Northrop Grumman about the MX-10160B and they gave me a price quote for the tube, as well as a specification sheet which claims a 10,000 hr life with options the user can request a tube with a 36:1 SNR and halo of .40 here's a link for the MX-10160B sensor.northgrum.com/es/eos/PDF_Data_Sheets/mx10160B.pdf I wondered about the lifetime so did some searching and found the following concerning Litton's manufacturing process: www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-19771356_ITM From above link:
I found some info from Litton in a Jane's Defence article from 2002 about the filmless technology that claims they (Litton) have a special proprietary high performance glass they use for the MCP that reduces the emission of poison (hydrogen, water, and CO2) They scrub the MCP during manufacture using a few different methods and by baking off the poison species. It also mentions that they coat the photocathode with cesium fluorine oxide, which they claim is more resistant to poisoning the photocathode than the standard 3rd gen. filmed cesium oxide coating, as well as photocathode gating to further reduce emissions. The SNR is near 30:1 minimum tube life is 7,500 hours But Northrop Grumman has demonstrated figures of 36:1 and greater than 10,000 hours respectively back in 2002. If anyone has the origional Jane's article to post or any info about these unfilmed tubes, I'd be interested in seeing it. Also, the origional post for the night vision comparison pictures was on this website: www.armees.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24771&pid=348814&mode=threaded&start=#entry348814 |
| Color won't come through current NV technology as it is impossible to convert photon to electron, back to photon in color, so if you are looking for color images, then you will probably have to get into low light TV technology. For color to work, you would need three tubes that filter the three primay colors, convert, amplify, re-constitute and then re-combine the three images onto a color capable screen. You are now talking weight issues for a human borne device. |
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A few things to remember...There is no Gen 4 "Officially" named or released from either ITT and/or Northrop Litton. I read an article awhile back that a military branch was actually the one who started the Gen 4 nomenclature in a proposal. The last thing to remember about these "filmless" tubes; they are NOT weapon rated for any caliber. You do not ever want to mount these on a recoil platform. Vic |
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Wow alot of good info most over my head......Whats an lp? What about does 68lp and 72lp mean? Now when they measure resolution is it done the same as with Binoculars and other day optics? With the white and black stiped board at different ranges to determine how crisp the image is....... Or for Night Vision is there a different way of measuring resolution? |
Resolution is measured in Line Pairs Peer Millimeter on a USAF 1951 chart. The 1951 chart is, I think what you are calling the white and black stripped board. It has sets of "line pairs" in smaller and smaller sizes. 64 LPM is the current standard with 72 LPM being better. As mentioned above, most people can't tell the difference between 64 or 72. 64 is pretty damn sharp really. IPSC_GUY SIERRA II ALPHA |
Yes that is the B/W line stripped board I understand thank you IPSC 
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