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Posted: 7/26/2010 6:12:45 PM EDT
I believe the law states to make the form 4 available, to the ATF upon request not a LEO....I could be off on that, it's been a while.

So has anyone been stopped/questioned about your NFA item, and not had the form 4 on them? Is it that big of deal? Fines, tickets, or ??
Link Posted: 7/26/2010 6:53:50 PM EDT
You are correct in that ATF are the only ones you have to show the paperwork to. However that will not prevent your detention and seizure of said items by state or local law enforcement until ATF can be contacted and allowed time to sort out the matter. Your guess is as good as mine as to how long this might take. Most states have laws against NFA items if they are not registered. So carrying the paperwork and showing it if asked is an easy way to show that the item is legal. YMMV
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 3:57:06 AM EDT
NFA items are in almost all cases dual jurisdictional, in that they are regulated at both a Federal AND state level. Furthermore, proof of Federal registration is usually the language used at the state level to make NFA possession legal. There have been threads on this topic before, and as mentioned above you don't have to show LEOs your form, but when approached by a local LEO on what he thinks might be a state felony, I'm showing the form. YMMV
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 6:21:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2010 6:23:24 AM EDT by texjames]
I have only had my NFA stuff out in use at our local rifle range.Its privately owned with membership.It is the policy of the range marshall to check your
paperwork.If you don't you will be asked to leave. I know its not mandatory to have my stamp with me but i keep scanned copies in my range bag all
the time just to help me out if some LEO did question me just to defuse a situation, like pulled over for traffic stop etc. and he see's all my toys in case's in the bed of my truck.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 6:26:51 AM EDT
I make a habit of always having the forms with me when transporting. Whether or not I would show them to someone is a decision I'll make when the time comes, but it seems prudent to have that as an available option.

Link Posted: 7/27/2010 6:31:49 AM EDT
I take my paper work with me too. I took a cased pistol and silencer to a buddies house for "show and tell" and forgot my paper work. On the drive home I thought it would be my luck to get stopped. I didn't and everything was fine, I was just wondering if anyone has been stopped without it and received tickets or anything crazy, or just given 24-48 hours to produce it like a drivers license.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 6:32:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2010 6:39:22 AM EDT by hellbound]
in PA, all NFA items are illegal, but an approved tax stamp is defense against prosecution. if i don't show the paperwork to the officer i would go to jail, have my stuff confiscated, post bail, go to trial, show my paperwork to a judge who would dismiss the case, then start the process of getting everything expunged, and receive my property back. it's easier and quicker to just show the LEO my paperwork and be on my way.

i have copies of all my approved Form 1's, original stays in safe, i have a copy offsite in a firebox at my parents house, and a laminated copy stays in the gun case.
i also have scans of them on my HDD and an AES encrypted USB flash drive with scans of other important documents (ie: driver's license, passport, birth certificate, SS card, CCW permit, car titles)
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 8:06:41 AM EDT
I always carry a copy of it with me, but I have never been asked for it. Well, never been asked by LEO, lets put it that way. Nosey know it alls at the ranges have asked for it, and I've told them to fuck off.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 8:48:19 AM EDT
I keep a copy of all the paperwork in the vehicle with insurance and vehicle registration. That way, there's never a question of whether I have paperwork or not.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 9:11:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By damcv62:
I always carry a copy of it with me, but I have never been asked for it. Well, never been asked by LEO, lets put it that way. Nosey know it alls at the ranges have asked for it, and I've told them to fuck off.


i like your style.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 12:17:39 PM EDT
i minimized my form 1 and have it in my wallet
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 12:28:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chadwick76:
i minimized my form 1 and have it in my wallet


I like that idea...
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 12:38:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By texjames:
I have only had my NFA stuff out in use at our local rifle range.Its privately owned with membership.It is the policy of the range marshall to check your
paperwork.If you don't you will be asked to leave. I know its not mandatory to have my stamp with me but i keep scanned copies in my range bag all
the time just to help me out if some LEO did question me just to defuse a situation, like pulled over for traffic stop etc. and he see's all my toys in case's in the bed of my truck.



Regarding the ranges asking to see the papers... I've never understood that and won't got to a range that does. Do these ranges also run the serial numbers of all the other regular pistols and rifles brought there to make sure they arent stolen?
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 12:39:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By combat45acp:
Originally Posted By chadwick76:
i minimized my form 1 and have it in my wallet


I like that idea...


It works.... for a while.

Eventually that form turns into a stack of forms that no longer fit on your wallet.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 2:10:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2010 2:11:14 PM EDT by BSOG1]
LOL, isn't ALL NFA illegal without a Form 1 or 4 ?? for civies ?

Originally Posted By hellbound:
in PA, all NFA items are illegal, but an approved tax stamp is defense against prosecution.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 2:16:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hellbound:
Originally Posted By damcv62:
I always carry a copy of it with me, but I have never been asked for it. Well, never been asked by LEO, lets put it that way. Nosey know it alls at the ranges have asked for it, and I've told them to fuck off.


i like your style.


I'm sure you know who I'm talking about too. The old fudd at the state game lands wearing over alls and watching you like a hawk??? I had one go so far as to call the cops, who told him that if I wasn't pointing a gun at him, to mind his own business, they had better things to do. He was none to happy.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 4:21:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BSOG1:
LOL, isn't ALL NFA illegal without a Form 1 or 4 ?? for civies ?

Originally Posted By hellbound:
in PA, all NFA items are illegal, but an approved tax stamp is defense against prosecution.


Yes, but not having your Form 1/4 copy on your person isn't, unless your state requires it.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 7:08:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By damcv62:
Originally Posted By hellbound:
Originally Posted By damcv62:
I always carry a copy of it with me, but I have never been asked for it. Well, never been asked by LEO, lets put it that way. Nosey know it alls at the ranges have asked for it, and I've told them to fuck off.


i like your style.


I'm sure you know who I'm talking about too. The old fudd at the state game lands wearing over alls and watching you like a hawk??? I had one go so far as to call the cops, who told him that if I wasn't pointing a gun at him, to mind his own business, they had better things to do. He was none to happy.


when i first started shooting i had some young fudds, probably early 20s, shooting their dad's old sears 22lr and some awful handguns, pull the "omg is that illegal, we should do something" routine with my ban compliant inch pattern FAL. i explained to them that it wasn't and to calm the fuck down. i almost let them shoot it, until they began to tell me about how they like some other range because they can shoot "akimbo" style and run up on targets... i was like WTF OVER... and politely excused myself from the conversation...
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 7:11:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2010 7:12:04 PM EDT by hellbound]
Originally Posted By combat45acp:
Originally Posted By BSOG1:
LOL, isn't ALL NFA illegal without a Form 1 or 4 ?? for civies ?


Originally Posted By hellbound:
in PA, all NFA items are illegal, but an approved tax stamp is defense against prosecution.


Yes, but not having your Form 1/4 copy on your person isn't, unless your state requires it.


while that is true, please read the rest of my statement which i highlighted in red for your convenience. while it isn't "illegal" to not show my Form 1/4 to an LEO, RO, etc, it definitely makes life easier

Originally Posted By hellbound:
in PA, all NFA items are illegal, but an approved tax stamp is defense against prosecution. (this is where you stopped reading) if i don't show the paperwork to the officer i would go to jail, have my stuff confiscated, post bail, go to trial, show my paperwork to a judge who would dismiss the case, then start the process of getting everything expunged, and receive my property back. it's easier and quicker to just show the LEO my paperwork and be on my way.
Link Posted: 7/27/2010 7:54:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/27/2010 7:57:34 PM EDT by r-2-k-b-a]
Originally Posted By combat45acp:
I believe the law states to make the form 4 available, to the ATF upon request not a LEO....I could be off on that, it's been a while.

So has anyone been stopped/questioned about your NFA item, and not had the form 4 on them? Is it that big of deal? Fines, tickets, or ??




This subject has been BEAT TO DEATH On here.

ALL states have laws against mere possession of NFA items. Carry your forms. No form, your likely going to lose your 'device' until you produce it and any LEO is well within their legal right to do so and in any case, is obligated providing a call to NFA branch is not possible.

When I go out with my toys, I have my forms. So should you.

Link Posted: 7/27/2010 8:40:15 PM EDT
I have copies of my trust and all NFA forms in every vehicle, and other things such as gun cases, packs, chest rigs etc..

So I might go out with 1,000,000 copies of NFA paperwork, but at least I got my forms with me
Link Posted: 7/28/2010 4:25:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2010 5:20:14 AM EDT by precision40]
The way I see it is this.....If anyone wants to see my papers I will proudly show them. The REALITY of it is that if you run across a LEO shooting at the range, he's probably going to be more concerned about wanting to shoot your cool shit than seeing your papers.....That's a fact. Several months ago, I took my 14" 1100 to the range, a group of 5-6 OHP Troopers were shooting in the next bay over, they came over and wanted to see my cool SG, NOT ONCE did the "Is that thing legal" issue ever come up.

To address the OP's question, the answer IMHO would be Yes, it would probably be a hassle if you were stopped and you couldn't prove the legality of your firearms. You "might" get arrested, fined and in some states like N.Y. a plunger shoved up your rear-end...YMMV
Link Posted: 7/28/2010 5:25:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2010 5:26:50 AM EDT by PSI]
I keep a reduced size copy of the Form 4 for each SBR and one for my silencer rolled up in the FUG on each. And a similar copy of the silencer's with each carbine. That way, no matter what I have out, I've got the possible applicable forms with.
Link Posted: 7/28/2010 6:35:48 AM EDT
I always keep copies of my paperwork in every bag or case that I could possibly use to transport my NFA items. I also keep copies of the paperwork rolled up and stored in the pistol grips of my rifles if the equipment allows it.
Link Posted: 7/28/2010 8:04:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By precision40:
The REALITY of it is that if you run across a LEO shooting at the range, he's probably going to be more concerned about wanting to shoot your cool shit than seeing your papers.....That's a fact.V


YUP!
Link Posted: 7/28/2010 12:16:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hellbound:
in PA, all NFA items are illegal, but an approved tax stamp is defense against prosecution. if i don't show the paperwork to the officer i would go to jail, have my stuff confiscated, post bail, go to trial, show my paperwork to a judge who would dismiss the case, then start the process of getting everything expunged, and receive my property back. it's easier and quicker to just show the LEO my paperwork and be on my way.

i have copies of all my approved Form 1's, original stays in safe, i have a copy offsite in a firebox at my parents house, and a laminated copy stays in the gun case.
i also have scans of them on my HDD and an AES encrypted USB flash drive with scans of other important documents (ie: driver's license, passport, birth certificate, SS card, CCW permit, car titles)


WTF, NFA is ALL legal in PA with the approved form.
Link Posted: 7/28/2010 12:59:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2010 1:02:14 PM EDT by drfcolt]
Originally Posted By forceinpa:
Originally Posted By hellbound:
in PA, all NFA items are illegal, but an approved tax stamp is defense against prosecution. if i don't show the paperwork to the officer i would go to jail, have my stuff confiscated, post bail, go to trial, show my paperwork to a judge who would dismiss the case, then start the process of getting everything expunged, and receive my property back. it's easier and quicker to just show the LEO my paperwork and be on my way.

i have copies of all my approved Form 1's, original stays in safe, i have a copy offsite in a firebox at my parents house, and a laminated copy stays in the gun case.
i also have scans of them on my HDD and an AES encrypted USB flash drive with scans of other important documents (ie: driver's license, passport, birth certificate, SS card, CCW permit, car titles)


WTF, NFA is ALL legal in PA with the approved form.



What hellbound says is correct.

Most items that are required to be registered under the National Firearms Act such as machine guns, suppressors, short barreled rifles and shotguns, are prohibited in Pennsylvania as “offensive weapons” unless they are registered under the NFA.

It is an affirmative defense for those found in possession of NFA weapons.

Link Posted: 7/28/2010 6:37:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Steelblitz:
Originally Posted By texjames:
I have only had my NFA stuff out in use at our local rifle range.Its privately owned with membership.It is the policy of the range marshall to check your
paperwork.If you don't you will be asked to leave. I know its not mandatory to have my stamp with me but i keep scanned copies in my range bag all
the time just to help me out if some LEO did question me just to defuse a situation, like pulled over for traffic stop etc. and he see's all my toys in case's in the bed of my truck.



Regarding the ranges asking to see the papers... I've never understood that and won't got to a range that does. Do these ranges also run the serial numbers of all the other regular pistols and rifles brought there to make sure they arent stolen?

Yeah it kind of sucks but this range is all we have around here.I don't know anyone with land to shoot on.Texas is mostly all private lands with ranch and farming.
Ya can't just go out in the counrty and shoot like when i lived in Tucson Az. and New Mexico. Just have to deal with it.

Link Posted: 7/28/2010 6:58:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/28/2010 7:00:24 PM EDT by Deadpan]
Originally Posted By drfcolt:
Originally Posted By forceinpa:
Originally Posted By hellbound:
in PA, all NFA items are illegal, but an approved tax stamp is defense against prosecution. if i don't show the paperwork to the officer i would go to jail, have my stuff confiscated, post bail, go to trial, show my paperwork to a judge who would dismiss the case, then start the process of getting everything expunged, and receive my property back. it's easier and quicker to just show the LEO my paperwork and be on my way.

i have copies of all my approved Form 1's, original stays in safe, i have a copy offsite in a firebox at my parents house, and a laminated copy stays in the gun case.
i also have scans of them on my HDD and an AES encrypted USB flash drive with scans of other important documents (ie: driver's license, passport, birth certificate, SS card, CCW permit, car titles)


WTF, NFA is ALL legal in PA with the approved form.



What hellbound says is correct.

Most items that are required to be registered under the National Firearms Act such as machine guns, suppressors, short barreled rifles and shotguns, are prohibited in Pennsylvania as “offensive weapons” unless they are registered under the NFA.

It is an affirmative defense for those found in possession of NFA weapons.



Just a minor correction there, SBRs don't seem to be prohibited Offensive Weapons. See 18 Pa.C.S. § 908: Prohibited offensive weapons
Link Posted: 7/28/2010 9:59:38 PM EDT
you guys just beat the horse dead....LOL

who cares. if its legal, that's all i care about. there is a code and rule and another code, just for taking a shit these days.
lol
Link Posted: 7/29/2010 10:48:23 AM EDT
I got stopped with some supressors in my car. The deputy asked if I had any weapons in the car. I told him about some supressors. He asked if they where registered and I said yes and that was the end of it.

Dan
Link Posted: 7/29/2010 12:22:14 PM EDT
I don't have any problem showing my form to a LEO. I probably wouldn't show it to any Joe on the street or at the range just because its none of their business. If the RSO kicks me off the range because I won't show him my Form 1, I'll never go to that range again.

That being said, I bought a Magpul MOE grip and keep a color copy of my Form 1 rolled up inside the hollow grip. I also keep copies in my range bag, car and in with my truck paperwork just in case. Like others have said, I'd rather show my form to a LEO real quick, than risk the financial burden of being "detained" and "processed."
Link Posted: 7/31/2010 8:06:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ljh824:
I don't have any problem showing my form to a LEO. I probably wouldn't show it to any Joe on the street or at the range just because its none of their business. If the RSO kicks me off the range because I won't show him my Form 1, I'll never go to that range again.
d."




A shooting range has the right and obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's range. Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen machineguns? ( No, they don't always dress with their pants-on-the-ground ) I don't think they would either. You are a guest on THEIR Property. Don't set a bad example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range.



Link Posted: 7/31/2010 10:19:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By r-2-k-b-a:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
I don't have any problem showing my form to a LEO. I probably wouldn't show it to any Joe on the street or at the range just because its none of their business. If the RSO kicks me off the range because I won't show him my Form 1, I'll never go to that range again.
d."




A shooting range has the right and obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's range. Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen machineguns? ( No, they don't always dress with their pants-on-the-ground ) I don't think they would either. You are a guest on THEIR Property. Don't set a bad example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range.


Really? Does the range also check ownership papers on every weapon at the range, as part of this "obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's [sic] range" or does this obligation somehow extend only to NFA? Your question back at you: "Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen handguns/rifles/shotguns?" Kinda arbitrary with the NFA stuff, don't you think?

I thought the poster was very reasonable: "Your range, your rules, but I'm not showing my Form 1. I'll leave." Seems to me like he's setting a perfect "example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range."

Link Posted: 8/1/2010 8:18:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ScottS:
Originally Posted By r-2-k-b-a:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
I don't have any problem showing my form to a LEO. I probably wouldn't show it to any Joe on the street or at the range just because its none of their business. If the RSO kicks me off the range because I won't show him my Form 1, I'll never go to that range again.
d."




A shooting range has the right and obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's range. Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen machineguns? ( No, they don't always dress with their pants-on-the-ground ) I don't think they would either. You are a guest on THEIR Property. Don't set a bad example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range.


Really? Does the range also check ownership papers on every weapon at the range, as part of this "obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's [sic] range" or does this obligation somehow extend only to NFA? Your question back at you: "Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen handguns/rifles/shotguns?" Kinda arbitrary with the NFA stuff, don't you think?

I thought the poster was very reasonable: "Your range, your rules, but I'm not showing my Form 1. I'll leave." Seems to me like he's setting a perfect "example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range."



You do whatever you think you need to do to keep your tin hat on straight. However, sooner or later someone is going to ask and your range options are going to diminish significantly with this attitude. MANY ranges will not permit SBRs or cans, period, forms or not. I'll gladly show my Forms to any landowner, or person who has legal control over a shooting range with a smile and even let them shoot it if they want to.

Since handguns and rifles are not illegal by CRIMINAL statute there is no reason to inquire.
Link Posted: 8/1/2010 9:04:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By r-2-k-b-a:
Originally Posted By ScottS:
Originally Posted By r-2-k-b-a:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
I don't have any problem showing my form to a LEO. I probably wouldn't show it to any Joe on the street or at the range just because its none of their business. If the RSO kicks me off the range because I won't show him my Form 1, I'll never go to that range again.
d."




A shooting range has the right and obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's range. Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen machineguns? ( No, they don't always dress with their pants-on-the-ground ) I don't think they would either. You are a guest on THEIR Property. Don't set a bad example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range.


Really? Does the range also check ownership papers on every weapon at the range, as part of this "obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's [sic] range" or does this obligation somehow extend only to NFA? Your question back at you: "Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen handguns/rifles/shotguns?" Kinda arbitrary with the NFA stuff, don't you think?

I thought the poster was very reasonable: "Your range, your rules, but I'm not showing my Form 1. I'll leave." Seems to me like he's setting a perfect "example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range."



You do whatever you think you need to do to keep your tin hat on straight. However, sooner or later someone is going to ask and your range options are going to diminish significantly with this attitude. MANY ranges will not permit SBRs or cans, period, forms or not. I'll gladly show my Forms to any landowner, or person who has legal control over a shooting range with a smile and even let them shoot it if they want to.

Since handguns and rifles are not illegal by CRIMINAL statute there is no reason to inquire.


Tinfoil hat?? You're the one who conjures up gang-bangers with illegal machineguns, and the refusing to show papers to any an all requestors is somehow a bad example to set. I merely pointed out the poster is not only within his rights to refuse to show his Form 1/4, but also handled it in a mature fashion. "No, you may not see the Form. I'll leave."

I guess this is one of those cases where we have to agree to agree you're wrong.
Link Posted: 8/1/2010 10:56:56 AM EDT
I used to carry a copy of my paperwork in my wallet... Then one day I realized that sometime durring the day I had lost my wallet... ( i have only done this once before in my life, but these things do happen).

The first realization that came to me was that if some knob found my wallet and recognized that form, I had opened myself up to all kinds of negative possibilities... seeing as they also had my address as well... Yupper it is in a safe, but I dont need the hell that is involved when someone rousts yur house...

So now I keep a copy of my paperwork under the foam in the case, and not in my wallet

I did find my wallet later on with no drama, but it was an eye opening experience for me...
Link Posted: 8/1/2010 11:04:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By r-2-k-b-a:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
I don't have any problem showing my form to a LEO. I probably wouldn't show it to any Joe on the street or at the range just because its none of their business. If the RSO kicks me off the range because I won't show him my Form 1, I'll never go to that range again.
d."




A shooting range has the right and obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's range. Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen machineguns? ( No, they don't always dress with their pants-on-the-ground ) I don't think they would either. You are a guest on THEIR Property. Don't set a bad example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range.





Not too sure I can agree with you there. NFA forms have personal information on them such as your address, I really don't want some random person knowing what I've got and where I live.
Link Posted: 8/2/2010 7:48:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2010 7:54:37 AM EDT by r-2-k-b-a]
Originally Posted By Colt_sporter:
Originally Posted By r-2-k-b-a:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
I don't have any problem showing my form to a LEO. I probably wouldn't show it to any Joe on the street or at the range just because its none of their business. If the RSO kicks me off the range because I won't show him my Form 1, I'll never go to that range again.
d."




A shooting range has the right and obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's range. Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen machineguns? ( No, they don't always dress with their pants-on-the-ground ) I don't think they would either. You are a guest on THEIR Property. Don't set a bad example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range.





Not too sure I can agree with you there. NFA forms have personal information on them such as your address, I really don't want some random person knowing what I've got and where I live.



Owners or representatives of a business are not random. Use a marker and black out your address on the form copies if this bothers you. Your address is just as obtainable with an internet search.
Link Posted: 8/2/2010 7:53:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ScottS:
Originally Posted By r-2-k-b-a:
Originally Posted By ScottS:
Originally Posted By r-2-k-b-a:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
I don't have any problem showing my form to a LEO. I probably wouldn't show it to any Joe on the street or at the range just because its none of their business. If the RSO kicks me off the range because I won't show him my Form 1, I'll never go to that range again.
d."




A shooting range has the right and obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's range. Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen machineguns? ( No, they don't always dress with their pants-on-the-ground ) I don't think they would either. You are a guest on THEIR Property. Don't set a bad example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range.


Really? Does the range also check ownership papers on every weapon at the range, as part of this "obligation to keep illegal firearms from being used on it's [sic] range" or does this obligation somehow extend only to NFA? Your question back at you: "Would you appreciate the local local gang members using your range to practice shooting their stolen handguns/rifles/shotguns?" Kinda arbitrary with the NFA stuff, don't you think?

I thought the poster was very reasonable: "Your range, your rules, but I'm not showing my Form 1. I'll leave." Seems to me like he's setting a perfect "example for other NFA owners while at a public shooting range."



You do whatever you think you need to do to keep your tin hat on straight. However, sooner or later someone is going to ask and your range options are going to diminish significantly with this attitude. MANY ranges will not permit SBRs or cans, period, forms or not. I'll gladly show my Forms to any landowner, or person who has legal control over a shooting range with a smile and even let them shoot it if they want to.

Since handguns and rifles are not illegal by CRIMINAL statute there is no reason to inquire.


Tinfoil hat?? You're the one who conjures up gang-bangers with illegal machineguns, and the refusing to show papers to any an all requestors is somehow a bad example to set. I merely pointed out the poster is not only within his rights to refuse to show his Form 1/4, but also handled it in a mature fashion. "No, you may not see the Form. I'll leave."

I guess this is one of those cases where we have to agree to agree you're wrong.


No, I didn't say " anyone ". I said those with legal control of private property. Go back and read it. As I said before you do whatever you want to do that makes you feel better.


Link Posted: 8/8/2010 3:02:23 AM EDT
is a black and white copy of the paper work ok or does it need to be color?
....speaking of color
does the color of a tax stamp signify anything?
john
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 4:17:12 AM EDT
Black and White should be fine, color copies weren't around years ago, at least not everywhere.

All my stamps are green, if I remember correctly 1st stamp is like 14 years old so I think they are all the same...but I'm not an expert.
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 4:30:36 AM EDT
Aren't the old $1 NFA Stamps Red? I have only seen a couple, but I thought that was what I recalled....but it has been a long time...
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 5:20:42 AM EDT
I have a copy of my forms when ever I have my NFA toys with me. I've never been stopped so vie never been asked about them.

IIRC a buddy was stopped going to a shoot with a truck load of NFA & ammo. The LEO kept him on the side of the road for something like 6 hrs while he made phone calls to make sure everything was legit. Don't know if he had his forms on him or not.
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 6:40:13 AM EDT
I run off multiple two sided color scans of my approved/stamped form 1's and 4's. If I get stopped I have enough for the officer, his supervisor and all they back up they may call in. Plenty of reading material on the front end will avoid a hassel later. Frankly, I am more concerned abot LE freaking out over my Draco than the NFA items that I have paperwork for.
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 6:57:31 AM EDT
Recently (Father's Day) I went to a local outdoor range with my son with an AKM and an AR15 SBR. When I broke out my Spike's SBR the range broom jockey RAN over and demanded my paperwork. I decided to play along and not give him attidtude because my kid was there and I wanted to enjoy my day. I asked him nicely why and he said it was in the range RULES, which he showed me. I handed him my two sided color copy of my approved form 4. Then he spent 5 minutes trying to decide if he was going to let me shoot because the Spike's lower has a fake full auto selector with color fill. OMG!!!! Run!!!! I invited him to look at the FCG or even fire the rifle to prove it was not full auto. I suggested he could google the issue if he wanted to verify what I was telling him. I fought the temptation to suggest that he should probably be up on these issues given his important position of authority.... After I got clearance from his boss- they guy with the bigger broom and the megaphone- I blasted away. The first guy watched me the entire time I was there, as if I was going to do something terrible at any second. My kid was so annoyed by the twerp and his antics that he didn't even want to shoot. I am not going back there...
Link Posted: 8/8/2010 8:43:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dferg10:
Recently (Father's Day) I went to a local outdoor range with my son with an AKM and an AR15 SBR. When I broke out my Spike's SBR the range broom jockey RAN over and demanded my paperwork. I decided to play along and not give him attidtude because my kid was there and I wanted to enjoy my day. I asked him nicely why and he said it was in the range RULES, which he showed me. I handed him my two sided color copy of my approved form 4. Then he spent 5 minutes trying to decide if he was going to let me shoot because the Spike's lower has a fake full auto selector with color fill. OMG!!!! Run!!!! I invited him to look at the FCG or even fire the rifle to prove it was not full auto. I suggested he could google the issue if he wanted to verify what I was telling him. I fought the temptation to suggest that he should probably be up on these issues given his important position of authority.... After I got clearance from his boss- they guy with the bigger broom and the megaphone- I blasted away. The first guy watched me the entire time I was there, as if I was going to do something terrible at any second. My kid was so annoyed by the twerp and his antics that he didn't even want to shoot. I am not going back there...


Ignorance is bliss these days and many times, these " range officers " make themselves feel better by screwing with people. It only hurts their wallets, not yours.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 2:50:29 PM EDT
I took my silenced SBR to a range I frequent very often and have never had a problem.

Today the new official mall ninja range officer asked if I had papers and being the nice guy since I was there with my son and his friend let him see my copies.

Well according to the expert, copies are not good enough and that you need to bring the originals to the range according to the BATF.

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 3:37:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Glock9:
I took my silenced SBR to a range I frequent very often and have never had a problem.

Today the new official mall ninja range officer asked if I had papers and being the nice guy since I was there with my son and his friend let him see my copies.

Well according to the expert, copies are not good enough and that you need to bring the originals to the range according to the BATF.

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT.


Well he is the range expert and all.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:20:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Glock9:
I took my silenced SBR to a range I frequent very often and have never had a problem.

Today the new official mall ninja range officer asked if I had papers and being the nice guy since I was there with my son and his friend let him see my copies.

Well according to the expert, copies are not good enough and that you need to bring the originals to the range according to the BATF.

WHAT A LOAD OF BULLSHIT.


If you loose the original or if it gets lost in the mail the atf will just send a copy with a stamp instead of a stamp on it.

My sbr's bag has in a plastic bag in it a notarized true copy of my form 1 and a notarized true copy of my trust. When the form 4 for its suppressor comes in it will get a notarized copy of that as well. Don't see why a copy wouldn't do but a notarized one should be better.

My local private outdoor range has a policy to check the paperwork. They also only allow full auto on Saturday as they at the end of a neighborhood and they agreed to that to please those around them. They guys generally just ask if it is the same gun I've been brining and don't care past that. I want to say my local indoor range checks paperwork as well but last time I had my sbr in their they just asked if it was registered. Past that they didn't seem to care.

Most of the people that have seen my sbr at the range just wanted to play/look at it as they haven't seen one before.
Link Posted: 9/5/2010 7:34:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By damcv62:
I always carry a copy of it with me, but I have never been asked for it. Well, never been asked by LEO, lets put it that way. Nosey know it alls at the ranges have asked for it, and I've told them to fuck off.


I love it when the retired range safety officer nazi waddles up and asks "You got a license for that?"

"Nope, and I don't need a license. Have a nice day."
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