Class 3 Bound Book Questions > General NFA Questions

Posted: 7/4/2008 12:36:38 PM EDT

I work at a gun shop and we are just now getting into Class 3. We have our SOT and have already placed an order for a customer.

So we have ~~a few~~ several questions:

We ordered a suppressor from YHM for a customer. YHM says it will take 3-5 weeks to get a Form 3 approved and the can sent to us. Our customer can't start his paperwork until we get the can, because he needs the serial number, etc. Is it legal/acceptable to get this info from YHM and give it to the customer so he can fill out his Form 4 and get it sent in? This would allow the customer to submit his paperwork now rather than waiting the 3-5 weeks.

When we get the can how is it entered in our bound book? Do we list "suppressor" under the block that asks for type of firearm? We do plan to keep a seperate NFA bound book.

When we log out the can, we put the persons name address etc, but do you also put down the tax stamp number, or other such info?

Once the customer receives approval does he bring us the papers and stamp showing us he is approved or will the ATF contact us?

I know there is no 4473 or NICS check on a NFA purchase but do we keep a copy of the approved form 4? Or is there some other paper/form we keep?

I see where some Class 3 dealers advertise they will do all the paperwork, the customer just has to provide the LEO signature, photos, and fingerprints. Pros or cons to this? We are thinking that we will supply all the neccesary forms, and help answer any questions, but the actual filling out and submitting of paperwork will be done by the customer.

What thoughts do you have on ordering NFA for customers? Do you charge 100% up front, or a down payment of X%? If they are denied by the ATF do you generally return the down payment?

Have I asked enough questions?

Thanks for any help, we plan on talking to the local ATF field office, but I just wanted to get some info now.

Posted: 7/4/2008 1:24:59 PM EDT

[#1]

Wait for the form 3 approval before allowing the customer to send off his form 4. I don't see any problems in giving the SN out to the customer so he can have the paperwork filled out and ready to go, but if he submits the form 4 into the system and the form 3 hasn't cleared yet, it means he's filed paperwork for a suppressor that technically you are suppose to have in your possession. I don't think it's worth the headache since he's trying to "jump the line" with his form 4 when there's really no way of guessing what the ATF backlog is. What you could do is have all the paperwork ready to go except for the SN. The moment the suppressor comes in, let the customer know what the SN is and fire off the paperwork. People really don't understand how much waiting is involved with NFA. The norm just a few years ago was around a year.

Last form 4 I did, the dealer handled all the paperwork even though I told him that I'm familiar with the process. From a buyer standpoint, that just seems more professional. Also, you get a chance to double-check all the info and make sure all the necessary documentation is in place. All I received was a pre-addressed USPS envelope with all the forms with those sticky note tags highlighting all the places I needed to sign and date. The dealer had already taken all my corporate info, copied them, and bundled them up in the envelope. I just had to sign, date, and get it stamped at the post office.

ETA: I guess in cases of individual transfers, you could have two stages of the paperwork. Prep all the forms (form 4, fingerprint, citizenship cert) with the individual's info. Give the first packet to them and they can get the CLEO sign-off, photos, and fingerprints. Then you get the packet and verify that everything is correct. Finally, you return the full packet for them to send off. The idea here is to get everything right the first time.

Posted: 7/4/2008 1:29:46 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
I work at a gun shop and we are just now getting into Class 3. We have our SOT and have already placed an order for a customer.

So we have ~~a few~~ several questions:

We ordered a suppressor from YHM for a customer. YHM says it will take 3-5 weeks to get a Form 3 approved and the can sent to us. Our customer can't start his paperwork until we get the can, because he needs the serial number, etc. Is it legal/acceptable to get this info from YHM and give it to the customer so he can fill out his Form 4 and get it sent in? This would allow the customer to submit his paperwork now rather than waiting the 3-5 weeks.

This is not advisable, you would be attempting to transfer a NFA item that you do not have yet..NO, let him wait..

When we get the can how is it entered in our bound book? Do we list "suppressor" under the block that asks for type of firearm? We do plan to keep a seperate NFA bound book.

SILENCER

When we log out the can, we put the persons name address etc, but do you also put down the tax stamp number, or other such info?

Once the customer receives approval does he bring us the papers and stamp showing us he is approved or will the ATF contact us?

The approved, or di-approved Form 4 will come to you, the TRANSFORER.

I know there is no 4473 or NICS check on a NFA purchase but do we keep a copy of the approved form 4? Or is there some other paper/form we keep?

The customer DOES have to fill out a 4473.

I see where some Class 3 dealers advertise they will do all the paperwork, the customer just has to provide the LEO signature, photos, and fingerprints. Pros or cons to this? We are thinking that we will supply all the neccesary forms, and help answer any questions, but the actual filling out and submitting of paperwork will be done by the customer.

Guess is doe'nt matter who mail it in, but it will still be mailed to your shop.

What thoughts do you have on ordering NFA for customers? Do you charge 100% up front, or a down payment of X%? If they are denied by the ATF do you generally return the down payment?

Piss on ordering in items for customers. Unless you buy cans in bulk, you won't really save much for a mark up. Instead, offer some info on comapanys he can order one from, and do the transfer. Charge between $50-$100 for the transfer. Much better way to profit IMO. I would stock a few can, something for folks to see, but IMO you'll make more profit from doing transfers.

Have I asked enough questions?

Thanks for any help, we plan on talking to the local ATF field office, but I just wanted to get some info now.

Posted: 7/4/2008 9:21:50 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

This is not advisable, you would be attempting to transfer a NFA item that you do not have yet..NO, let him wait..

Your not attempting it until you actually mail it off. I would be pissed if the dealer would not let me get the forms filled out and signed. As long as you don't send them in, there is no problem. I always get the numbers and get them signed. I'm mil and gone a lot (like right now) and I have 4 sets of forms signed/ready to be sent it. If I tried to work around a dealer and the ATF, some of my transfers would take over a year to 1.5 yr. There is nothing wrong with it as long as you can trust the person who has the forms, if they are stupid and try to mail them in, you could get fucked.

I see where some Class 3 dealers advertise they will do all the paperwork, the customer just has to provide the LEO signature, photos, and fingerprints. Pros or cons to this? We are thinking that we will supply all the neccesary forms, and help answer any questions, but the actual filling out and submitting of paperwork will be done by the customer.

If you are going to be selling the stuff and charging for it, you better know how to fill out the forms, How do you expect to sell to 1st time buyers if you leave it up to them. If you told me as a customer to fill out my own forms, and then were going to charge me for the transfer, you would never see a dime of my money. Most dealers give me the forms and cards even though I tell them not to.

What thoughts do you have on ordering NFA for customers? Do you charge 100% up front, or a down payment of X%? If they are denied by the ATF do you generally return the down payment?

Piss on ordering in items for customers. Unless you buy cans in bulk, you won't really save much for a mark up. Instead, offer some info on comapanys he can order one from, and do the transfer. Charge between $50-$100 for the transfer. Much better way to profit IMO. I would stock a few can, something for folks to see, but IMO you'll make more profit from doing transfers.

If ordering one, get the money up front, or just do a vanilla transfer. Some can manf will give good discounts if you buy at least 3 or more cans. If you have a buyer, charge him for the can(s) and then maybe buy a couple of more (stock) to get the better dealer discount. You can make more than the transfer cost if you get a dealer status with a company. Most dealers I've gone through start to give me decent breaks on cans after the first 2. They will sell a lot less than MSRP because they know I will be back and they still make at least the transfer fee after their dealer discount. If they want to just charge MSRP, I will buy the can form one of the big dealers, just pay the transfer and still come out ahead. I will usully show a dealer what I can get it for, see their markup and usually meet in the middle-he makes more money than a transfer and I get a deal.
You might also want to look at dealer samples, they are usually a lot cheaper and you can show customers the difference in manf.

I'm not a dealer but the dealers I have had have shown me their costs and their profit margins. I am happy to pay msrp if I have to, but rarely do. They know they could charge me more but never do. On some of the cans I will pay a little extra than what they charge because I know they are cutting it too thin. And its nice to keep a NFA dealer happy that has post 86 belt feds

Have I asked enough questions?

Posted: 7/5/2008 6:39:17 AM EDT

[#4]

I am sure there are duplicate answers in here but I'm answering them anyways.

Quoted:
I work at a gun shop and we are just now getting into Class 3. We have our SOT and have already placed an order for a customer.

So we have ~~a few~~ several questions:

We ordered a suppressor from YHM for a customer. YHM says it will take 3-5 weeks to get a Form 3 approved and the can sent to us. Our customer can't start his paperwork until we get the can, because he needs the serial number, etc. Is it legal/acceptable to get this info from YHM and give it to the customer so he can fill out his Form 4 and get it sent in? This would allow the customer to submit his paperwork now rather than waiting the 3-5 weeks.

No problem filling out the paperwork ahead of the approved Form3, just don't allow your customer to submit it before the F3 is approved. I personally won't do this as I had a customer submit it in an attempt to speed the transfer(against my direction) and I was called by the ATF and asked how i can transfer a can that is not under my SOT. It extended the process by almost 2 weeks. Now I won't send out the paperwork until I have can in hand. Also if dates don't coincide then that can be an issue as how can you get a approval for a F4 transfer before the item is in your bound book? In an audit it looks pretty bad, as it appears you are selling/transferring stuff you don't have. I will give the paperwork out to the customer to get a CLEO signoff but after they get it they return the Forms to me until I get the item. Works out better, that way they can knock some of the time down and then I get the Forms back so they don't do what I don't want them to do. Everyone wins.

Another reason to wait to fill the form out is that the Form4 needs to mimick the Form3, and until you have recieved a transfer from YHM you don't know all their information like model, length, manufacture info as printed on the Form3. After your first transfer from said company you are set. Fill out that form with info that DOES NOT MATCH the approved Form3 and it will be rejected. ASK ME HOW I KNOW?????

One more thing to note is that a serial number that is submitted as M221234 will not be approved if the serial on the Form3 is documented as M22-1234. Again ASK ME HOW I KNOW?????

When we get the can how is it entered in our bound book? Do we list "suppressor" under the block that asks for type of firearm? We do plan to keep a seperate NFA bound book.

Silencer, keeping a seperate bound book for NFA is wise as if you drop your SOT you will need to turn in your NFA transactions and easier to just give ATF the NFA Bound book.

When we log out the can, we put the persons name address etc, but do you also put down the tax stamp number, or other such info?

The 'tax stamp number' is the serial number of the item. For mine i put the serial number of the 4473 that is filled out that logs the item out of my bound book.

Once the customer receives approval does he bring us the papers and stamp showing us he is approved or will the ATF contact us?

Forms will be mailed to you. You are the 'owner' when he gets the Form approved you relinguish ownership of said it by signing it out of the bound book.

I know there is no 4473 or NICS check on a NFA purchase but do we keep a copy of the approved form 4? Or is there some other paper/form we keep?

NO NICS check but you do have to fill out a 4473 and file it appropriately. No call in just a way to prove that you signed it out of your bound book(to my understanding). i also keep a copy of the approved Form4 as you still have an approved Form3 in your files and its nice to show the papertrail of the item. Audit tiem comes its a very welcome thing.

I see where some Class 3 dealers advertise they will do all the paperwork, the customer just has to provide the LEO signature, photos, and fingerprints. Pros or cons to this? We are thinking that we will supply all the neccesary forms, and help answer any questions, but the actual filling out and submitting of paperwork will be done by the customer.

You will get more customers especially first time buyers if you fill out the paperwork. Like it was mentioned before, if I have to fill it out myself I would go to another dealer that will do that for me. The customer receives from me a completed form just needing either a CLEO signoff and their signature. They mail it in once they 'complete' it. The way i see it it's all part of the process and part of what you are paying me to do.....acquire, paperwork, storage, transfer.

What thoughts do you have on ordering NFA for customers? Do you charge 100% up front, or a down payment of X%? If they are denied by the ATF do you generally return the down payment?

I charge 100% up front(minus taxes, that way taxes are paid at time of transfer not as that is when I consider the purchase happens.) if they are denied ownership by the ATF its the customers responsibility to find a new buyer, and I will more than gladly provide pictures to help them sell it. If they are denied by the ATF then they shouldn't have been in my shop to begin with as if you can own a firearm then you can own NFA.

Have I asked enough questions?

No, I am sure there will be more but thats what this forum is for, ask away.

Thanks for any help, we plan on talking to the local ATF field office, but I just wanted to get some info now.

Good luck on that, most field offices are useless when it comes to NFA. My field office told me it was illegal to sell machineguns. Schooled the ATF on that one, go figure

-TS
FFL/SOT

Posted: 7/7/2008 5:25:55 AM EDT

[#5]

Thanks for all the help.

Doesn't seem all that bad. A little more paperwork, and just waiting 3 months or so until we can finally finish the transaction...

Now I just need $25,000-$35,000 for a nice Colt 1921 Thompson.....

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