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Posted: 12/17/2007 6:50:08 AM EDT
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I would like to build a full auto M4. Can I buy a lower and the parts to machine out the lower and do it myself aslong as I register the new tweaked lower and parts (bolt, auto sear, trigger mechinism)? I have found the tooling die's to do all the work myself, but not sure how that is legal. I know it is illegal to own the parts and a normal register part. Any and all help will be greatly apprecated. I really dont have the 14K + to buy a fully auto already. And would like the pleasure of building myself. |
| There's a reason that registered, transferable M16's, AR conversions, DIAS's and Lightning Link's cost that much--they are your only legal option for full auto if you are an ordinary Joe. There is just a fixed supply of them and the prices reflect that. You can't build a new one cheaply and legally unless you are a Class II manufacturer. Sorry, but unless you can pony up 10K-plus, no AR FA Fun for you! Check out the CIII forums here on Arfcom for more detailed info. |
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Thnk you. Not doing, just asking about it. Ok then, why or how do they sell machining dies to hog out the reciever and drill out the sear pin???? Im not looking to dig a hole here, just trying to figure this AR thing out. I am new to this whole deal. I get that it is NOT legal. Thank you for that. Will not do it. But still curious. |
IBTL ? |
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You can do it but you'd have to become a licensed Title II firearms manufacturer. And that's a whole new can of worms. Thank your politicians for putting an end to the making of new, civilian legal to own MGs back in May of 1986. And the way it was done was the most devious piece of shit imaginable.
CJ |
The jigs, information, and whatever else exists out there for the right FFL/SOT people to build MGs for sale to LEO/Military. Commoners like you and I have to ¨Pay to Play¨ by purchasing Legal Pre-1986 Registered MG. |
Ok, here's what you need to do: 1) Either rent or purchase a piece of property zoned appropriately for a commercial enterprise. Cost: $$$$$. 2) Form a Corp/LLC at the location described in #1. Make sure it is registered properly with the state, you get a Fed EIN for it, and procure any appropriate local licenses required to run a firearms manufacturing business. Note that you will also have to file tax returns for this business (in my state, some returns are quarterly, others are once a month). Cost: $250-1000 depending on if you DIY or have an attorney draw up your operating agreements. 3) Apply to the BATF for an FFL w/ 07/02 SOT in the name of the Corp/LLC described in #2. Cost: $850 ($350 for the licenses + $500 for the C3 SOT) Now you can legally manufacture a full-auto firearm. |
Because if you get a legal and registered DROP IN AUTO SEAR you can do this to a lower. |
You forgot the ITAR fee @ $1750/year. |
easy with that. drilling a sear pin hole is creating a new machine gun, which would be illegal regardless of whether there was a DIAS present or not. |
I fixed it for you. |
true, but some lowers may require clearance milling to fit the RDIAS. |
True, but I'd hate to see someone drill the hole for the autosear thinking that because they have a RDIAS it's legal. You can mill out the inside for a RDIAS even w/o owning it. (Might be hard to explain, but not illegal if you don't have the FA parts & sear.) |
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Or you could go ahead and do it and become the poster boy for challenging the NFA and FOPA on inapplicability to interstate commerce. Wasn't there a case some years back where a guy built a FA for his own use, never left the state, and his argument was the fundamental basis for these laws is the Interstate Commerce Clause, and if there's no IC, there's no violation? |
Please read the rules at the top of this forum. Discussion of the full-auto conversion process is not permitted here. Period. |
wouldn't matter. the SCOTUS has also ruled that if you make something on your own, it has an effect on interstate commerce since you won't now be *buying* what you have already made...  |
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Back when anybody could buy a Thompson MG without anything but the price, old George "Machinegun" Kelley was running amok. As were Clyde Barrow with his stolen from a National Guard Armory BAR, and plenty more just like them. The Fuzz was armed with S&W .32 and .38cal revolvers, maybe a shotgun or 30-30 in their cars. The government put the brakes on MG ownership by common citizens for a pretty good reason. And left a loophole where honest citizens could purchase MGs with background check and $200 tax stamp, as it still remains. Due to the law with none built for the civilians since 1986 the used prices went to the thousands of dollars for a MG...Fun but too expensive to own and too expensive to feed..... |
Yes, however, he fucked up later on in the court proceedings over another charge IIRC and so things prior became a moot point. -Ben |
I noticed you mentioned that Clyde Barrow stole his machine guns. Criminals now steal their guns. Criminals will always break the law. There is never a "pretty good reason" for penalizing law abiding citizens. |
CJ Very informative... I think I'm going to be sick. |
i've never understood how the hughes amendment wasn't just "thrown out" at some point considering that the above is not only true, but is apparently available on tape... |
Yeah.....taking away our Second Amendment rights were done for a pretty good reason
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+1 We're our own worst enemy at times.... |
that's not entirely true either. if you read over some of the doccumentation on how the NFA came about, it is pretty clear (at least it was to me) that most thought that the NFA was a *stall* that would hamper weapons buying for a short time until it was ruled unconstitutional. during this time though the .gov could get the violence under control... |
Well, the time wasn't short and the violence has not been controlled. I often wonder how much this had to do with the confiscation and redistribution of wealth (taxes). The most imposing tax laws came about in the same time period. The "Gangsters" did not register their guns or pay taxes. Can you say Al Capone. The BATF and IRS were both under control of the Treasury. |
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I believe that there will always be people in power who don't understand that criminal intent MEANS intent to break the law. So, additional laws won't help. No way around it, criminals don't obey laws. That's why they're criminals. More laws won't change that. They won't EVER understand that as we do. CJ |
In my opinion, what was done there is WAY more ILLEGAL, than converting a gun to full auto. |
+1 Laws will always deter law abiders. Not law breakers. Notice how most weapons used in high profile crimes recently have been stolen. Nebraska Mall Shooter: Rifle stolen from his step Father Columbine Massacre: Illegally sold to them as they were minors etc, etc, etc... I wonder if anybody has compiled data on massacres and crimes, and show how many were either stolen or purchased illegally? |
Which is THE most ridiculous thing ever... |
Ive seen some folks buy a partially machined lower without a FFL i believe and finish it for a build .. The parts had to be purchased at some point .. |
we are talking about machine guns here, not semi-autos. it is a decidedly different market both financially and legally. |
yes |
Still I do not think the founders intended for the commerce clause to be used this way. The Govt can regulate my growing tomatoes since if I hadn't grown them I might have bought them. Please. That was never the intent and the FF could have never thought anyone would be so idiotic. |
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