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Posted: 3/3/2007 12:34:10 PM EDT
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I have a philosophical question that perhaps someone could answer. If you allow someone who is prohibited from owning a Title II weapon (Covicted Felon) shoot your auto gun, have you broken any laws if you are present? Are they prohibited from even handling or shooting weapons as a condition of their parole/probation? Inquiring minds want to know. |
Yup |
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This makes the felon a felon in possession of a firearm (or firearms) and makes you the person who supplied a felon a firearm (or firearms). All are felonies. The felon goes to prison. You get at least one felony, lose your gun and voting rights, and get to join them in prison. Mike |
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Possession means different things in different portions of the law. Most honest folks are are prohibited from "possessing" a Glock 18. But if your local range or PD owns one, not only can you fondle it but you can shoot it as well if they are there. That is not considered possession. For felons, merely fondling the gun is considered possession. |
But what if you were unaware that they were a felon, doesn't that make it just one felony? |
What would a judge and a jury say? Mike |
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I took a quick look at the law and could not find anything that made it unlawful for YOU to allow a defined criminal to handle/shoot your gun. Of course I could find plenty that prevented them from possessing it. The best I could find was: d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person— |
A felon can't be around firearms period. They can't even come into your house or car if firearms are present. |
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The question is "Do I, as a Class III weapons owner, have the affirmative legal duty to determine whether the person handling the weapon is a "felon"? In this thread that question is already answered in the sense of there is prior knowledge of this guy is a felon. Class III has certain privileges and duties special and unique than mere weapons possession, and there are ethics. So far I have not found the language that specifically forbids the conduct in question. Furthermore, these gun ranges that allow everyday people to come in and fire machine guns on sight, i don't recall a criminal background check being done, but I do recall the individual would have to sign a statement stating " I have never been convicted of a felony and I am not under present indictment for a crime punishable by more than a year in prison, etc" Personally, I have an uncle who is a felon, I couldn't tell him no if the situation ever arose, he's a great guy and was an avid hunter. Anybody else, I'd just say no. |
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one of my frends hada room mate on parole for some tax evasion type stuff. when the parolee found out i was in to guns he explained that he was not allowed to be in the house if there were guns or ammo present. to stay safe i would not let a known felon near any of my guns. |
That's one of the first things I thought of before asking the original question. I've never rented an auto at a range, but it would seem they have the same obligation and consequences to obey the law as a private person does. To go a step further, how different is it if a felon goes to a gun show and just picks up a weapon for sale if the merchant doesn't ask about your legal history? If you're a Sea Lawyer, just skip over this thread. If you have something specific that is in writing, please post for all to see. |
I think it's a good bet you'd lose the gun that the felon was caught possessing. You might get it back after an expensive legal fight. There's a thread somewhere on these boards started by a guy who experienced this exact sirutation first hand. He was shooting on what was thought to be private land with a friend and his friend's friend, turns out it wasn't and a sheriff's deputy pulled up, drew his weapon and proceeded to check IDs and ran everyone through the computer. Turns out the friend's friend was a felon and he was looking at some serious trouble himself. I'm sure I'm not doing it justice, but it was definitely on these boards sometime in ther last year. |
Gun shows are the untouchables, historically and presently, when it comes to regulation. My friend and I went to a gunshow,he was a felon, i wasn't, we were both there as public consumers. He finds a gun he wants to trade, a Glock for a 1911, he fills out no forms, no questions asked. I find a gun I want, a New Bearcat, I trade a Caspian 1911, I have to do the whole background check. What is a "sea-lawyer", I doubt you mean maritime? |
I heard that......accessory to a crime sometimes requires knowledge or intent, but in these days of RICO, you might just be at the wrong place at the wrong time to be charged and perhaps found guilty. If you loan a felon a gun, wittingly or not, you may be considered an accessory, a co-conspirator, or other bad things. If the felon did a robbery, theoretically, you could be charged as an accessory or co-conspirator to the more serious charge. NTM felony-murder doctrine. Though I find no cases holding the above hypothetical, I am sure someone somewhere has been charged and disposed of the charges in some other way or dismissal. Here in Texas, officials like to charge and chastise you and then say "We will drop the felony against you , but you are not getting your gun back." They steal a lot of good peoples guns that way, bc who wouldn't take the slap on the wrist versus taking on the State of Texas and being charged with a felony besides Willie, Waylon and not me. |
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1. You will probably lose your gun since it is now "evidence" and guns used in the commission of a crime (Felon in possession of a Firearm) are usually disposed of after the conviction. 2. If you knew he was a Felon you could be charged as an accessory. 3. It's just stupid. You have a CIVIL duty to ensure that only proper persons have access to your weapons. I would not want a Felon even knowing where I kept my weapons. You see "birds of a feather" and such. I can see Uncle Felon talking to his buddies over a few beers about your cool guns. Now Uncle Felon is a cool guy so he would never do anything, but now one of his friends with a crank habit knows where he can steal some stuff that he can sell REAL quick. Before you know it more Felons have YOUR guns. Am I an alarmist? Maybe. Have I seen it happen? You betcha. Do I associate with known Felons? No way in hell. They have a habit of making bad choices and dragging everyone else down with them.  |
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The section where it can be found in the USC is Title 44 section 18 subsection 920-930. A felon in possession of 1 - ONE ! round of loaded ammuntion is eligible to receive a mandatory 5 - FIVE years in prison, the same as for possessing a firearm. Anyone who is brain cell challenged enough to KNOWINGLY sell/lend/borrow/allow a felon to use, etc a gun that they own is deserving of the penalty that they receive. Conspiracy includes KNOWINGLY helping someone violate the law. If you know the person is a felon ( or convicted of DV or fits into some other prohibited persons category) and you allow them / help them to violate the law, you are eliegible for the same penalty. IF YOU ALLOW A FELON TO USE YOUR FIREARM YOU DO NOT DESERVE THE RIGHT TO OWN THEM. |
is this a serious post? you are asserting that gun shows need more "regualtion", and at the same time admitting you were both present and aware when your friend, a felon, made a firearm transaction? 
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PhillyB - Pay up and talk to a real attorney in your state. lawdawg, are you a lawyer or do you just play one on the internet  I think you might be referring to a Texas law that allows felons to possess firearms 5 years after release from confinement or the person's release from supervision. Some other states have similar laws but, unfortunately federal law is clear and trumps the state law. It will only be OK for a felon to posses a firearm after they are pardoned or the conviction is somehow set aside. § 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person: (1) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to any person knowing that the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered intends to use it unlawfully or in the commission of an unlawful act; (2) intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases, or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife; (3) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly sells a firearm or ammunition for a firearm to any person who is intoxicated; (4) knowingly sells a firearm or ammunition for a firearm to any person who has been convicted of a felony before the fifth anniversary of the later of the following dates: (A) the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony; or (B) the person's release from supervision under community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision following conviction of the felony; (5) sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to any person knowing that an active protective order is directed to the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered; or (6) knowingly purchases, rents, leases, or receives as a loan or gift from another a handgun while an active protective order is directed to the actor. |
Boy, that really explains the big picture. You wanna play, we are both in Texas? Citing a body of law and leaving out its application is in no way helpful to this thread or its poster. Further, your statute cite is off point of topic and can be seen only as part of a personal attack against me. It does more harm than good by giving people something that they then rely on to their detriment. Looks like you are the one playing Matlock. STFU. We were just talking here and your post ain't got nothing to do with it. You come all the way over here and resurrect a thread that has been dead for nearly a month just to say that. Your intentions are blatantly obvious, and while at the same time I appreciate your crim.law lesson, you should not preface it with a cowardly snide comment of "do you just play one ...." It's called hijacking a thread and it is against the rules dikhead. What are you in your profession, a telemarketer? |
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