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Posted: 7/24/2011 3:00:08 AM EDT
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I was in a gun store the other day and they had an 1898-manufactured American Krag on the rack. I'm wondering what you guys who know more about this than I do think is a fair price for it.
I did not get a chance to look at the bore. That is the one variable. It has been sporterized. The wood looks like that of a carbine, but it could just be a well-done cut-down job; it's in decent shape. The original front and rear sights have been removed. The two holes used to mount the rear sight have been filled in with a white metal of some sort, left unfinished. The butt plate had been replaced with a recoil pad, but it has rotted away and the rifle needs a new butt plate or recoil pad. The sights have been replaced with a Redfield aperture rear sight with the corresponding front sight. I don't know if this is the sight that mounts where the magazine cutoff goes as I didn't know where to look for that. The front swivel has been replaced with some sort of aftermarket swivel that just hooks into the loop at the bottom of the barrel band; it comes off without the use of any tools or movement of parts. I don't know if the barrel is cut-down or not, but it does seem to be shorter than the full-length rifle barrel. A decent amoung of finish remains, but there is some wear and somewhat of a patina; I don't know if any of the patina is really rust but I didn't sport anything crusty. The rifle is a bit dirty so it needs to be cleaned up. Everything needed for it to function is there. It comes with no additional parts or accessories. |
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Some of you are far too gentle.
I would have weighed it then offered the scrap value of steel. Unless it were converted by someone who was unusually talented I suspect it was an utter hash-up. The last "sporterized" 1903 I bought I paid $25.00 for. And that was being charitable, given the metallic sodomy that had been wrought upon that poor rifle. |
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It's worth no more than the value of recoverable parts, which sound like not much. At best you have semi usable deer rifle in a odd ball caliber. Well, a shooter for field use is more what I had in mind than a collector item; I wouldn't even bother with a sporter then. What do you think it is roughly worth? Gunbroker seems to have sporters anywhere from the mid-200s to the upper 400s. The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475 (I can't remember off the top of my head) plus sales tax (8.75%). I'm trying to see what I could reasonably talk them down to regarding price. One thing I'm wondering about is if it is possible to convert an American Krag to .303 British if it is a rifle that has already lost any collector value. Also, does anyone have a picture or specs on the charger the Army created for the Krag known as "the claw." |
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It's worth no more than the value of recoverable parts, which sound like not much. At best you have semi usable deer rifle in a odd ball caliber. Well, a shooter for field use is more what I had in mind than a collector item; I wouldn't even bother with a sporter then. What do you think it is roughly worth? Gunbroker seems to have sporters anywhere from the mid-200s to the upper 400s. The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475 (I can't remember off the top of my head) plus sales tax (8.75%). I'm trying to see what I could reasonably talk them down to regarding price. One thing I'm wondering about is if it is possible to convert an American Krag to .303 British if it is a rifle that has already lost any collector value. Also, does anyone have a picture or specs on the charger the Army created for the Krag known as "the claw." .303 British has a different bore diameter - so new barrel is needed. And why? The .30-40 round is a GREAT round. I've bought some Krag sporters - that one is worth no more than $200 dollars, with both sights gone. |
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It's worth no more than the value of recoverable parts, which sound like not much. At best you have semi usable deer rifle in a odd ball caliber. Well, a shooter for field use is more what I had in mind than a collector item; I wouldn't even bother with a sporter then. What do you think it is roughly worth? Gunbroker seems to have sporters anywhere from the mid-200s to the upper 400s. The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475 (I can't remember off the top of my head) plus sales tax (8.75%). I'm trying to see what I could reasonably talk them down to regarding price. One thing I'm wondering about is if it is possible to convert an American Krag to .303 British if it is a rifle that has already lost any collector value. Also, does anyone have a picture or specs on the charger the Army created for the Krag known as "the claw." Are you referring to the Parkhurst-Warren clip loading device? |
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It's worth no more than the value of recoverable parts, which sound like not much. At best you have semi usable deer rifle in a odd ball caliber. Well, a shooter for field use is more what I had in mind than a collector item; I wouldn't even bother with a sporter then. What do you think it is roughly worth? Gunbroker seems to have sporters anywhere from the mid-200s to the upper 400s. The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475 (I can't remember off the top of my head) plus sales tax (8.75%). I'm trying to see what I could reasonably talk them down to regarding price. One thing I'm wondering about is if it is possible to convert an American Krag to .303 British if it is a rifle that has already lost any collector value. Also, does anyone have a picture or specs on the charger the Army created for the Krag known as "the claw." Are you referring to the Parkhurst-Warren clip loading device? I don't know what it's formally called, I just read about it and the author mentioned it by its nickname in passing, so no real detail. |
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It's worth no more than the value of recoverable parts, which sound like not much. At best you have semi usable deer rifle in a odd ball caliber. Well, a shooter for field use is more what I had in mind than a collector item; I wouldn't even bother with a sporter then. What do you think it is roughly worth? Gunbroker seems to have sporters anywhere from the mid-200s to the upper 400s. The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475 (I can't remember off the top of my head) plus sales tax (8.75%). I'm trying to see what I could reasonably talk them down to regarding price. One thing I'm wondering about is if it is possible to convert an American Krag to .303 British if it is a rifle that has already lost any collector value. Also, does anyone have a picture or specs on the charger the Army created for the Krag known as "the claw." .303 British has a different bore diameter - so new barrel is needed. And why? The .30-40 round is a GREAT round. I've bought some Krag sporters - that one is worth no more than $200 dollars, with both sights gone. If the bore isn't that great or is bad and I can get the price whittled down enough I'd want it in .303 (I understand that a new barrel would be needed). I just like that cartridge a lot and I have tons of it lying around. In doing some searches it seems the .303's pressures were not much higher than the standard .30 U.S. loading when comparing service cartridges and that lapping and honing in the front locking lug so that the guide rib will contact the receiver equally with the locking lug would add enough strength to make up for any difference. It is my understanding that the.303 British is one of the only cartridges other than the.30 U.S. and not based on it that will reliably feed from the magazine. If the bore is pretty nice I'd probably leave it in .30-40, though, at least for the time being. Regarding pricing, I don't know what the shop got it for, but given that people are saying this is worth considerably less than what they want for it, what would be a good low point to start with as far as offers? |
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I don't know what it's formally called, I just read about it and the author mentioned it by its nickname in passing, so no real detail. The Krag Collector's Guide has pics and descriptions. I'll take some photos when I have a chance. Cool, thanks. |
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"The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475."
The shop has it priced $200 too high, IMO and experience. If done well, cut-down Krag rifles are often excellent shooting and very accurate if the bore is not too worn. A lot of wear occurred at the muzzle and crown from cleaning, and chopping 4" to 10" from a rifle barrel and recrowning often makes for a good shooter. FWIW, handloaders for many years used 303 British and 30-40 Army loading data interchangeably, the cartridges are so similar. I also have a metric shite ton of 303 Surplus from almost 40 years of collecting but I would NOT dream of rebarreling a Krag in 303 because it's not worth it. Pick up 100 or 200 empty 30-40 Army cases from Midway and load a 200 gr Oregon Trail LRN bullet over about 10 gr of Unique and you have a marvelous and accurate range plinking load for which you will only need to neck size –– empties fall out of the chamber of my three Krags and my Browning 1895. Sticking with the 30-40 Army also means that you can reload it using any bullets you may already have for 30-30, 308, or 30-06. For dies, I use a set of Lyman 310 tool dies in 7.62x54R to load that cartridge, 303 British, and 30-40 Army, but conventional 7/8" dies in 30-40 Army are quite prevalent in these parts. What you describe is only worth about $250 in north central PA. And if you rebarrel, you'll have another $200 to $250 in it. You'll never get your $$$ out of it down the road if your interests change, so whatever you do, be prepared to like it a lot for long, long time, GI! Noah |
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Also, does anyone have a picture or specs on the charger the Army created for the Krag known as "the claw." You refer to the Parkhurst Clip Loading Attachment, sometimes called the Parkhurst-Warren Loader: 
It was trialed but since it was never formally adopted it wasn't widely distributed throughout the Army inventory. The clip fit into the Parkhurst's slots and the rounds pushed out with the thumb into the magazine tray that forms the bottom of a Krag receiver. Problem was, it was clunky and cumbersome to operate because the rounds tended to pile up once in the magazine tray. Soldiers would have to tilt the rifle to the left slightly to help facilitate "flow" of the rounds out of the clip and into the magazine. If one were prone to being a "fumble-fingers," it was often just as fast or faster to load five rounds singly. HTH, Noah |
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Also, does anyone have a picture or specs on the charger the Army created for the Krag known as "the claw." You refer to the Parkhurst Clip Loading Attachment, sometimes called the Parkhurst-Warren Loader: http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn33/Noah_Zark/Noah_Zark01/ParkhurstClipLoadingAttachment.jpg It was trialed but since it was never formally adopted it wasn't widely distributed throughout the Army inventory. The clip fit into the Parkhurst's slots and the rounds pushed out with the thumb into the magazine tray that forms the bottom of a Krag receiver. Problem was, it was clunky and cumbersome to operate because the rounds tended to pile up once in the magazine tray. Soldiers would have to tilt the rifle to the left slightly to help facilitate "flow" of the rounds out of the clip and into the magazine. If one were prone to being a "fumble-fingers," it was often just as fast or faster to load five rounds singly. HTH, Noah I've been doing some reading now that I know the name and it seems to me that in troop testing it was fairly well received but development was stopped because it was considered a moot point since the path to adoption of the M1903 was well underway. Still, manipulating a charger full of cartridges seems to me a bit easier and faster than getting a bunch of individual cartridges from individual loops or other secure storage and then putting them in (especially for one with "fumble fingers"). Apparently troops dropping tons of ammo while on the move in combat was an issue that came up during the Spanish War. I generally prefer charger guides and I like this idea. It seems a machinist could probably make something like this to attach to a rifle; given the lack of availability of original chargers, I wonder if .30-40 cartridges would fit in a Lee-Enfield charger (and just have something like this device made for them). I am curious how the clip was supposed to pop out with the magazine door closed, but I can't seem to find video or pictures besides the one you posted that would provide more detail. |
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"The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475."
The shop has it priced $200 too high, IMO and experience. If done well, cut-down Krag rifles are often excellent shooting and very accurate if the bore is not too worn. A lot of wear occurred at the muzzle and crown from cleaning, and chopping 4" to 10" from a rifle barrel and recrowning often makes for a good shooter. FWIW, handloaders for many years used 303 British and 30-40 Army loading data interchangeably, the cartridges are so similar. I also have a metric shite ton of 303 Surplus from almost 40 years of collecting but I would NOT dream of rebarreling a Krag in 303 because it's not worth it. Pick up 100 or 200 empty 30-40 Army cases from Midway and load a 200 gr Oregon Trail LRN bullet over about 10 gr of Unique and you have a marvelous and accurate range plinking load for which you will only need to neck size –– empties fall out of the chamber of my three Krags and my Browning 1895. Sticking with the 30-40 Army also means that you can reload it using any bullets you may already have for 30-30, 308, or 30-06. For dies, I use a set of Lyman 310 tool dies in 7.62x54R to load that cartridge, 303 British, and 30-40 Army, but conventional 7/8" dies in 30-40 Army are quite prevalent in these parts. What you describe is only worth about $250 in north central PA. And if you rebarrel, you'll have another $200 to $250 in it. You'll never get your $$$ out of it down the road if your interests change, so whatever you do, be prepared to like it a lot for long, long time, GI! Noah I don't currently reload. So far it isn't worth it to me given the price of components compared to buying more ammo. I'll eventually get into it, but 8X56R and .303 British are my priorities for initial reloading calibres, more to make custom hunting ammo than to save money; I'd probably start with a Lee Classic Loader. So far I've been able to buy .303 British for less than .40 cents a round. I just bought 300 rounds of FN .303 British (nitro surplus) and 50 rounds of Canadian .303 British (nitro and non-corrosive surplus, boxer primed), with the former on chargers, for $100 total. I don't know why people say they can't find surplus ammo in this calibre or ammo for a good price unless they just haven't been looking all that hard. Not sure what prices to expect for .30-40 but I doubt I'd be able to get ammo at these sorts of prices. Still, I wouldn't bother with a calibre conversion unless the bore was bad or was getting near the end of its usefulness. If it had a nice bore and crown I would most likely keep it in .30-40, although I would consider it for conversion down the road since it isn't worth much anyways. The cost of rebarreling in .30-40 and of honing and lapping the front locking lug would seem to be about the same as having the barrel made in .303 and going through that process. |
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"The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475."
The shop has it priced $200 too high, IMO and experience. If done well, cut-down Krag rifles are often excellent shooting and very accurate if the bore is not too worn. A lot of wear occurred at the muzzle and crown from cleaning, and chopping 4" to 10" from a rifle barrel and recrowning often makes for a good shooter. FWIW, handloaders for many years used 303 British and 30-40 Army loading data interchangeably, the cartridges are so similar. I also have a metric shite ton of 303 Surplus from almost 40 years of collecting but I would NOT dream of rebarreling a Krag in 303 because it's not worth it. Pick up 100 or 200 empty 30-40 Army cases from Midway and load a 200 gr Oregon Trail LRN bullet over about 10 gr of Unique and you have a marvelous and accurate range plinking load for which you will only need to neck size –– empties fall out of the chamber of my three Krags and my Browning 1895. Sticking with the 30-40 Army also means that you can reload it using any bullets you may already have for 30-30, 308, or 30-06. For dies, I use a set of Lyman 310 tool dies in 7.62x54R to load that cartridge, 303 British, and 30-40 Army, but conventional 7/8" dies in 30-40 Army are quite prevalent in these parts. What you describe is only worth about $250 in north central PA. And if you rebarrel, you'll have another $200 to $250 in it. You'll never get your $$$ out of it down the road if your interests change, so whatever you do, be prepared to like it a lot for long, long time, GI! Noah I don't currently reload. So far it isn't worth it to me given the price of components compared to buying more ammo. I'll eventually get into it, but 8X56R and .303 British are my priorities for initial reloading calibres, more to make custom hunting ammo than to save money; I'd probably start with a Lee Classic Loader. So far I've been able to buy .303 British for less than .40 cents a round. I just bought 300 rounds of FN .303 British (nitro surplus) and 50 rounds of Canadian .303 British (nitro and non-corrosive surplus, boxer primed), with the former on chargers, for $100 total. I don't know why people say they can't find surplus ammo in this calibre or ammo for a good price unless they just haven't been looking all that hard. Not sure what prices to expect for .30-40 but I doubt I'd be able to get ammo at these sorts of prices. Still, I wouldn't bother with a calibre conversion unless the bore was bad or was getting near the end of its usefulness. If it had a nice bore and crown I would most likely keep it in .30-40, although I would consider it for conversion down the road since it isn't worth much anyways. The cost of rebarreling in .30-40 and of honing and lapping the front locking lug would seem to be about the same as having the barrel made in .303 and going through that process. Getting a bit off topic- A lot of the inexpensive but common .303" I encounter tend to be "maypops". Not a huge disappointment when you are sitting on your duff shooting for fun, but eventually you end up with a good collection of them. Besides, you may find your carefully made .303" handloads are considerably more accurate than the surplus fodder you've been feeding your rifles. |
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"The shop I was at wants either $425 or $475."
The shop has it priced $200 too high, IMO and experience. If done well, cut-down Krag rifles are often excellent shooting and very accurate if the bore is not too worn. A lot of wear occurred at the muzzle and crown from cleaning, and chopping 4" to 10" from a rifle barrel and recrowning often makes for a good shooter. FWIW, handloaders for many years used 303 British and 30-40 Army loading data interchangeably, the cartridges are so similar. I also have a metric shite ton of 303 Surplus from almost 40 years of collecting but I would NOT dream of rebarreling a Krag in 303 because it's not worth it. Pick up 100 or 200 empty 30-40 Army cases from Midway and load a 200 gr Oregon Trail LRN bullet over about 10 gr of Unique and you have a marvelous and accurate range plinking load for which you will only need to neck size –– empties fall out of the chamber of my three Krags and my Browning 1895. Sticking with the 30-40 Army also means that you can reload it using any bullets you may already have for 30-30, 308, or 30-06. For dies, I use a set of Lyman 310 tool dies in 7.62x54R to load that cartridge, 303 British, and 30-40 Army, but conventional 7/8" dies in 30-40 Army are quite prevalent in these parts. What you describe is only worth about $250 in north central PA. And if you rebarrel, you'll have another $200 to $250 in it. You'll never get your $$$ out of it down the road if your interests change, so whatever you do, be prepared to like it a lot for long, long time, GI! Noah I don't currently reload. So far it isn't worth it to me given the price of components compared to buying more ammo. I'll eventually get into it, but 8X56R and .303 British are my priorities for initial reloading calibres, more to make custom hunting ammo than to save money; I'd probably start with a Lee Classic Loader. So far I've been able to buy .303 British for less than .40 cents a round. I just bought 300 rounds of FN .303 British (nitro surplus) and 50 rounds of Canadian .303 British (nitro and non-corrosive surplus, boxer primed), with the former on chargers, for $100 total. I don't know why people say they can't find surplus ammo in this calibre or ammo for a good price unless they just haven't been looking all that hard. Not sure what prices to expect for .30-40 but I doubt I'd be able to get ammo at these sorts of prices. Still, I wouldn't bother with a calibre conversion unless the bore was bad or was getting near the end of its usefulness. If it had a nice bore and crown I would most likely keep it in .30-40, although I would consider it for conversion down the road since it isn't worth much anyways. The cost of rebarreling in .30-40 and of honing and lapping the front locking lug would seem to be about the same as having the barrel made in .303 and going through that process. Getting a bit off topic- A lot of the inexpensive but common .303" I encounter tend to be "maypops". Not a huge disappointment when you are sitting on your duff shooting for fun, but eventually you end up with a good collection of them. Besides, you may find your carefully made .303" handloads are considerably more accurate than the surplus fodder you've been feeding your rifles. One of the batches of Pakistani ammo I bought not long after I bought my Lee-Enfield was like that, as was the mixed ammo I got for 10 cents a round at the store when I bought the rifle, but everything else has been good so far. I test a little of the ammo from each large batch I buy. With most batches accuracy has been quite acceptable. It's those two bad batches (one was mixed, so accuracy was a moot point) that have been disappointing in the accuracy department. For the amount I'm spending compared to reloading, the accuracy is just fine for me. I really wish reloading was cheaper. Anyhow, looking up info on the .30-40 compared to the .303 makes me lean towards the .303 even more. |
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