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Chest rigs were a necessary evil (Page 2 of 2)
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I used to hate chest rigs. But now I probably use one as much as a warbelt. Attached File Handgun goes on my normal belt. Chest rig, then a pack. Pack size is dictated but what I need. Sometimes its just a camelback, other times something bigger. Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: I used to hate chest rigs. But now I probably use one as much as a warbelt. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/1000004701_jpg-3788220.JPG Handgun goes on my normal belt. Chest rig, then a pack. Pack size is dictated but what I need. Sometimes its just a camelback, other times something bigger. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/1000005243_jpg-3788221.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/1000005247_jpg-3788222.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/433221/1000004304_jpg-3788223.JPG Good job, dad. Your boy looks like a clone of yourself. |
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everything in the game is a compromise, or a necessary evil if you want. my only suggestion is everyone should try to assess their needs as best as possible and plan accordingly. Since no one possesses omniscience everyone at some point gets inspiration from others that may or may not have completely different needs. Civilians copying soldiers is common and not always the right choice. That said read this UK Gov. document on how they tries to make a one size fit all type of webgear that obviously didn't work for everyone. Many (including me) praise brits choices in military items but i am definitely not happy for them seeing their taxpayers money at work. The demise of pattern 75 |
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Originally Posted By joeviterbo: everything in the game is a compromise, or a necessary evil if you want. my only suggestion is everyone should try to assess their needs as best as possible and plan accordingly. Since no one possesses omniscience everyone at some point gets inspiration from others that may or may not have completely different needs. Civilians copying soldiers is common and not always the right choice. That said read this UK Gov. document on how they tries to make a one size fit all type of webgear that obviously didn't work for everyone. Many (including me) praise brits choices in military items but i am definitely not happy for them seeing their taxpayers money at work. The demise of pattern 75 I've read through the first half of that, interesting. This kind of stuff fascinates me. Thanks for posting it. I get the issue with 'one size fits all' - but that's a necessary evil. You can't have a large organization design the perfect gear for everyone, especially at the combat arms level. What you need to do is make the organization flexible at the lower unit levels. Looking at this from the 20,000 foot view, I'd issue a simple MOLLE style chest rig as standard issued gear to everyone. (well, after we use up all of our FLC stockpile). Something like the Tactical Tailor MAV, or a modified version with mag pouches built into it maybe. It's cheap and effective and will 'work' for the vast majority of situation, even if not perfect. Realize that the vast majority of troops aren't combat arms dudes and don't need the latest and greatest stuff. But push comes to shove, that chest rig WILL 'work' in most situations. It will even work over armor if needed. I'm split on making the issue rig split rig or not, probably not split rig. Have a selection of basic MOLLE pouches available to go with it, depending on the MOS the guy has (ie, infantry dudes get more ammo pouches, etc.) These pouches can and will work with most other systems people will end up with. For armor, I'd pick a decent, simple, comfortable and durable slick plate carrier with an optional cummerbund that takes side armor. Issue that when needed, as the vast majority of people in the military won't need armor. Design it to take a placard if needed, which is easy enough. You don't have to get all fancy here. We already allow units to purchase their own specialized gear to a point. Expand this specifically for special units - tropical, mountain, etc. units. Let them order the specific gear they need. IE, belt kits for tropic based units, etc. Loosen up rules for individual purchased equipment in units (some units don't allow gear that doesn't match everyone else) I hate the idea that individual soldiers having to buy their own gear, but the military isn't going to issue the latest and greatest, you know? I could MAYBE see a 'tropic belt kit' as an NSN specific item that we stock, but knowing big army it's going to be dumb and too complicated or something else wrong with it. And it'll be 'one size fits all' in the end. As for packs - I think we are starting to head in the right directions with the newer packs we have started to issue. FILBE and the newer army issue packs. We DO need a true patrol pack, something akin to a beefed up issued assault pack maybe. Add a simple internal frame maybe? There are plenty of good options out there to pull ideas from. These ideas can probably be tweaked. This is just stream of conscious posting. As for the civilians copying military - I agree completely. While I make gear aimed more at actual combat arms troops (buttpacks, belt kits, etc.) I AM a civilian and do take an open minded view of civilian gear vs. military gear vs. 'constitutional militia / red dawn prep' gear / actual LARP gear. While civilians can take cues from military gear - for good reason - they need to remember their own role they might end up playing if the dice roll badly for them. Most civilians don't need fully outfitted *insert special unit here* gear loadouts. Unless you are into LARPing, then hey, I'm a gear snob so go for it as long as you can afford it. Even if you are into the whole idea of the 'constitutionally prepared citizen' or preparing for the inevitable commie paradrop on your local highschool, then the gear a civilian needs is quite possibly very different than the newest whiz-bang super special commando seal team delta kill squad gear that people are into. That doesn't mean you can't get or even need more specialized gear. Especially if you live in special environments - ie, living in Florida = very different gear needs than North Dakota. My person advice to civilians who want more than a simple bump in the night setup is to get a simple chest rig. Add a plate carrier if you are urban maybe. Then get a basic backpack and sustainment gear. Your backpacking backpack and gear can double for this if needed. You don't NEED more than that. If you are serious, spend the rest of the money on training, then night vision, thermal, and drones. That doesn't mean you can't upgrade that setup later too. Add that expensive belt kit later if you live in the SE for instance. Most civilians don't understand what their role is going to be if whatever bad event happens that forces you to be put into combat. Most people's gear choices are driven by this misunderstand + looking at all the cool-guy gear that they see online. |
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What about a hybrid? I little lower than a chest rig, higher than a PLCE type rig, split front, but no gear around back, but it can serve as a chest rig, split rig, LBE, and placard. Teardown Systems Sustainment and Reconnaissance (SnR) Rig    Split Rigs are Making a Comeback with Prepared Civilians ROCK6 |
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But does it do any of it as well as the specific items, or is it trying to be everything and the kitchen sink? But yes. That looks interesting. More of what I had in mind with the split rig idea for 'general issue'. You could probably easily swap out the harness too and make it ride high like a regular chest rig. Edit after looking at the website for that. Yea, that looks interesting. You can use one side of the split rig as a stand-alone micro-chest rig, or as a placard for your plate carrier. That seems pretty multi-purpose. Something like that has merit to look at for 'general issue', as you can tailor it to most uses, other than a full on belt kit (which is almost a specialty item for dismounted infantry) |
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I don't see a lot of difference from a warbelt with suspenders from an old ALICE rig. I'm still using my Alice rig for tactical shooting, etc. It's open enough that I don't die in the heat. I still have a tactical vest from nearly 30 yrs ago, not that I'd want to wear it in the heat. I can see using it for a longer range mission or assaulting a fixed objective, but at my age I think the most I would be doing when the balloon goes up is local security and maybe training. A 30 round Alice mag pouch and a camelback would be sufficient for that... |
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Originally Posted By Ops: I don't see a lot of difference from a warbelt with suspenders from an old ALICE rig. I'm still using my Alice rig for tactical shooting, etc. It's open enough that I don't die in the heat. There isn't a huge difference between those two things. But that's the point when alot of people bring up the idea of a warbelt with suspenders - yes, it's alot like the old ALICE gear. It CAN be done that way, but it's got issues compared to modern day belt kits (ie, modern day version of gear worn around waist like ALICE gear) Modern day belt kits fixed alot of the issues ALICE gear had. ^^ Note that a well set up set of ALICE gear is totally usable. I'm not discounting that. If you have a set and it's set up right, they work ok. I'm NOT being a snobby gear elitist. I'm just looking at it from the modern day viewpoint with all the improvements we have made to gear. If you get handed a well set of set of ALICE gear when the Chinese paratroopers start dropping on your highschool......I mean, it WAS made to stack commies, right? |
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: What about a hybrid? I little lower than a chest rig, higher than a PLCE type rig, split front, but no gear around back, but it can serve as a chest rig, split rig, LBE, and placard. Teardown Systems Sustainment and Reconnaissance (SnR) Rig https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/641e4f13f8bf50651e0b990a/1699409280965-OTOR7ON5KQNHSXQ8YATK/F6233272-E6A8-4781-9054-28B2AB4ECA25?format=1500w https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/641e4f13f8bf50651e0b990a/fa8f0285-bd01-4cf6-a9cd-56fc6042d8a7/xwing-2.jpg?format=1500w  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cje_lBpPmEM|806ROCK6 If it's adjustable... sure. I think that your chest rig needs to be able to interop with both your PC+Assault Belt and your sustainment ruck+kidney belt. But not at the same time. |
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Originally Posted By marnsdorff: I agree in some ways, but here are some thoughts. 1. A micro chest rig makes a REALLY good 'bump in the night' rig. It's easier to don than a belt and can carry everything you need. 2. LBE - which I am a BIG fan of - don't work well in vehicles. If you are operating out of a vehicle, a chest rig is alot better. This is where chest rigs shine. I can click on a belt with one buckle. An LBV is more effort. My bump in the night belt also has magazines, TQ, and a pistol on it with reloads for my Shotgun and rifle so whatever I grab (or just rock the pistol) i'm set. |
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Originally Posted By backbencher: Canteens are still issued? I thought everything was Camelbacks now. I have both and they're signed out to me 
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Originally Posted By marnsdorff: But does it do any of it as well as the specific items, or is it trying to be everything and the kitchen sink? Edit after looking at the website for that. Yea, that looks interesting. You can use one side of the split rig as a stand-alone micro-chest rig, or as a placard for your plate carrier. That seems pretty multi-purpose. Something like that has merit to look at for 'general issue', as you can tailor it to most uses, other than a full on belt kit (which is almost a specialty item for dismounted infantry) Originally Posted By marnsdorff: But does it do any of it as well as the specific items, or is it trying to be everything and the kitchen sink? Edit after looking at the website for that. Yea, that looks interesting. You can use one side of the split rig as a stand-alone micro-chest rig, or as a placard for your plate carrier. That seems pretty multi-purpose. Something like that has merit to look at for 'general issue', as you can tailor it to most uses, other than a full on belt kit (which is almost a specialty item for dismounted infantry) Yeah, I can appreciate versatility but at a certain point it can become more of a PITA than a benefit. I have both Haley and Spiritus micro rigs I can add to my plate carrier, so that's not something I would use this for. Yes, you could don it over a carrier, but my carriers are more for home-defense and if SHTF, worn when driving, not really a piece of my patrolling kit. I already said fuck it, happy 250th B-Day to me and ordered one to try out. The hybrid concept has some merit, and it actually reminds me a lot of my old-school split-chest TT MAV. Originally Posted By PistoleroJesse: If it's adjustable... sure. I think that your chest rig needs to be able to interop with both your PC+Assault Belt and your sustainment ruck+kidney belt. But not at the same time. Agreed. What dictates kit options (for me) outside of a DA/ambush-type missions, is really the sustainment/assault rucksack type; its size/weight and need for a waist/kidney belt is what determines the appropriate options. Layers of kit can be beneficial but there's a certain point where you tip from benefit to detriment where the layers can become too cumbersome, hot, and frankly, problematic. Originally Posted By fadedsun: I have both and they're signed out to me @fadedsun, are your canteens the old school hard plastic or the soft "Echo" versions? My son did Infantry boot about (good God!) 9 years ago and they gave him an initial issue with the soft Echo canteens. ROCK6 |
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I think the layered approach of belt (1st) line, chest rig or PC (2nd line), pack (3rd line) is the ideal setup. Gives you options, doesn’t put all of your eggs in one basket, and and allows maximum customization. Plus, walking around in the woods with weight on your hips, sucks big time. |
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: Yeah, I can appreciate versatility but at a certain point it can become more of a PITA than a benefit. I have both Haley and Spiritus micro rigs I can add to my plate carrier, so that's not something I would use this for. Yes, you could don it over a carrier, but my carriers are more for home-defense and if SHTF, worn when driving, not really a piece of my patrolling kit. I already said fuck it, happy 250th B-Day to me and ordered one to try out. The hybrid concept has some merit, and it actually reminds me a lot of my old-school split-chest TT MAV. Agreed. What dictates kit options (for me) outside of a DA/ambush-type missions, is really the sustainment/assault rucksack type; its size/weight and need for a waist/kidney belt is what determines the appropriate options. Layers of kit can be beneficial but there's a certain point where you tip from benefit to detriment where the layers can become too cumbersome, hot, and frankly, problematic. @fadedsun, are your canteens the old school hard plastic or the soft "Echo" versions? My son did Infantry boot about (good God!) 9 years ago and they gave him an initial issue with the soft Echo canteens. ROCK6 Soft echo? Mine are the hard plastic ones. They keep multiplying because I find more and more around the house or in my ruck Sack.
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: What about a hybrid? I little lower than a chest rig, higher than a PLCE type rig, split front, but no gear around back, but it can serve as a chest rig, split rig, LBE, and placard. Teardown Systems Sustainment and Reconnaissance (SnR) Rig ... ROCK6 The key point of LBE/belt kit is to put most of the weight on the hips. If it's trying at the chest rig role, it's loaded pretty damned heavy. It does look like it's low enough to allow adequate ventilation. |
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Back in the 90's my LBE held two magazine pouches that could each hold 3 magazines plus 2 grenades, two 2-quart canteens, compass, knife, bandage, and that was on the belt or suspenders. On the back was a fanny pack with my wooby, poncho, TP, lighter, wet wipes, and a torn down MRE. Depending on the mission at hand any one of those compartments may have held pogie-bait instead of what it was supposed to hold. As far as LBE vs chest rig I think each has their place. I do agree that when it comes to the chest rig they took something that was supposed to be fast and light then put 100# of shit on it because they could. |
| I think micro chest rigs are where they shine. Just ammo, maybe a small “admin” pouch. Or first aid. A mid size chest rig with some medium size GP pouches isn’t terrible if you don’t overload them. Anything large and you’re in a zone where LBE is more suited. To echo a comment we hear all the time, mission drives the gear. |
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Originally Posted By joeviterbo: everything in the game is a compromise, or a necessary evil if you want. my only suggestion is everyone should try to assess their needs as best as possible and plan accordingly. Since no one possesses omniscience everyone at some point gets inspiration from others that may or may not have completely different needs. Civilians copying soldiers is common and not always the right choice. That said read this UK Gov. document on how they tries to make a one size fit all type of webgear that obviously didn't work for everyone. Many (including me) praise brits choices in military items but i am definitely not happy for them seeing their taxpayers money at work. The demise of pattern 75 So I finished reading through this tonight. Honestly, overall, I think the British selection team did a decent job with navigating everything and putting together the PLCE. Definitely way better than the US has been doing for selecting stuff. I'm not saying they were perfect, but for a government organization working to decide what to buy, it wasn't bad. I noticed towards the end they started making some diverse options for special units (the NI patrol packs and chest rigs for mech troops as examples mentioned in there) in addition to a stripped down version for rear area non-combat troops. Interesting read. Like I said, that kind of thing fascinates me. Thanks for posting it. |
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This is all you need Attached File |
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Originally Posted By fadedsun: Soft echo? Mine are the hard plastic ones. They keep multiplying because I find more and more around the house or in my ruck Sack. Originally Posted By fadedsun: Soft echo? Mine are the hard plastic ones. They keep multiplying because I find more and more around the house or in my ruck Sack. Yeah, I think Echo was a brand, but they've been around for a few decades. We coveted them at Bragg. I was just shocked my son got them issued in Infantry Basic (light Infantry). They're also easier to use with a pro-mask tube if that's your need. Originally Posted By lew: The key point of LBE/belt kit is to put most of the weight on the hips. If it's trying at the chest rig role, it's loaded pretty damned heavy. It does look like it's low enough to allow adequate ventilation. Totally agree and this is where I think the wider hippo pads on PLCE type rigs are vastly superior for larger and heavier patrolling loads. The same with a pack; if it's too heavy without a hip belt as part of its suspension, it's going to suck (Yes, I carried a weighed down ALICE pack without hip belt for a long time...its sucks). The same with a chest rig but where I think the value comes in is in disciplined load capacity for certain mission types. Keep it to the very basics and less expanded field kit, and it's very capable. The split front is almost a mandatory for me, not only for managing heat build-up but also to make going prone much easier. As you alluded to, if the chest rig (or even something like that hybrid rig) is weighed down excessively, I would say you're using it for the wrong type of mission. If my loadbearing kit is going to have extended field kit, water, and potentially more ammo, the traditional LBE/PLCE type kits are the no-brainer, best choice. If I'm prioritizing a sustainment pack (with waist/hip belt, traveling longer distances, or in and out of varied terrain and/or vehicles, something like the hybrid/chest rig isn't a bad consideration. If I must or prioritize armor, I'm like to go with a micro rig and work around limited ammo access with some other options. How I see it: LBE/PLCE - Layer Two, Heavy. Can do more sustainment without a pack, great patrolling/field kit, distributes and carries weight very well, great ventilation Chest Rig - Layer Two, Medium. Versatile, works well in/around vehicles, integrates well with larger packs, smaller load capacity but still capable of a "basic fighting loadout", best when paired with a pack that carries the other bulky essentials (water, shelter, more ammo). Split rigs have pretty good ventilation. Carries weight okay but requires discipline to keep it manageable and not overloaded. Micro Chest Rig - Layer Two, Light. Great for short duration fighting, integrates with armor very well, works great with larger packs, limited ammo load capacity, very little room for anything but mags, small admin shit and radio. Versatile systems can allow them to expand (wings) and compete with less versatile chest rigs. I know "comfort" is an oxymoronic word to use for any of this shit but many here with experience would agree that heavy shit not distributed or carried "well" will impact your endurance, exacerbate any injuries, increase fatigue, and make more suck than necessary to embrace. Originally Posted By dayphotog: This is all you need https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65995/IMG_0360_jpeg-3790121.JPG God, reminds me of wearing a trash bag under a few layers to sweat of pounds when running or working out. Talk about a heat trap! No thanks! ROCK6 |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: Agreed. What dictates kit options (for me) outside of a DA/ambush-type missions, is really the sustainment/assault rucksack type; its size/weight and need for a waist/kidney belt is what determines the appropriate options. Layers of kit can be beneficial but there's a certain point where you tip from benefit to detriment where the layers can become too cumbersome, hot, and frankly, problematic. Not shown is the inside of the Pig 40hr pack. It has 10 mags, mre/cliff bars, maitnance kit, water, tarp, and hooded wobbie in the pack. I also have 3 mag plackard and rear bladder for the PC if in and out of vehicles is the name of the game.  ETA: need to figure a tripod solution. Already have provisions on pack for adding hatchet and/or infantry spade if necessary. |
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Originally Posted By PistoleroJesse: Decided to take a full kit pic. This doesn't have my sustainment ruck; an ExoMtnGear K4 3600. Not shown is the inside of the Pig 40hr pack. It has 10 mags, mre/cliff bars, maitnance kit, water, tarp, and hooded wobbie in the pack. I also have 3 mag plackard and rear bladder for the PC if in and out of vehicles is the name of the game. https://img.imgur.com/HmS1Nzt.jpg ETA: need to figure a tripod solution. Already have provisions on pack for adding hatchet and/or infantry spade if necessary. Can’t see the pic, but what I do for tripod is put it in the side zip-up water bottle pockets. Two legs in the pocket, one outside. I zip the pocket as high as it will zip, then secure with an outer strap buckle. It’s been good for miles of hiking around coyote hunting. |
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Originally Posted By bluedog82: Can’t see the pic, but what I do for tripod is put it in the side zip-up water bottle pockets. Two legs in the pocket, one outside. I zip the pocket as high as it will zip, then secure with an outer strap buckle. It’s been good for miles of hiking around coyote hunting. Can any one else see it? Water bottle pockets on this pack are not quite right for that (surplus british MTP osprey pouches that hold 32oz nalgenes with some spare water kit room too), but I figure I should be able to do something creative with a the extra molle space and pistol mag pouch and some extra webbing. |
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I have a big box of tactical gear - someone have it to me when they moved and were tired of messing with it. Honestly I’m not even sure what’s in it, except for a coyote plate carrier and some pouches. That stuff will probably never see the light of day haha |
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Originally Posted By PistoleroJesse: Can any one else see it? Water bottle pockets on this pack are not quite right for that (surplus british MTP osprey pouches that hold 32oz nalgenes with some spare water kit room too), but I figure I should be able to do something creative with a the extra molle space and pistol mag pouch and some extra webbing. Shows fine for me. |
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Originally Posted By fadedsun: I can click on a belt with one buckle. An LBV is more effort. My bump in the night belt also has magazines, TQ, and a pistol on it with reloads for my Shotgun and rifle so whatever I grab (or just rock the pistol) i'm set. Originally Posted By fadedsun: I can click on a belt with one buckle. An LBV is more effort. My bump in the night belt also has magazines, TQ, and a pistol on it with reloads for my Shotgun and rifle so whatever I grab (or just rock the pistol) i'm set. This is really my choice for home defense as well. I have my kit stand in the bedroom with a belt rig and plate carrier if I'm really concerned. The belt has just enough to handle a quick recce of the house and maybe a little outside. Fast to don, holster for handgun, extra light, FAK, and a couple extra mags (rifle/pistol). It's nice that the plate carrier and belt integrate really well if I feel the need to put on the plates. Originally Posted By PistoleroJesse: Decided to take a full kit pic. This doesn't have my sustainment ruck; an ExoMtnGear K4 3600. Not shown is the inside of the Pig 40hr pack. It has 10 mags, mre/cliff bars, maitnance kit, water, tarp, and hooded wobbie in the pack. I also have 3 mag plackard and rear bladder for the PC if in and out of vehicles is the name of the game. https://img.imgur.com/HmS1Nzt.jpg ETA: need to figure a tripod solution. Already have provisions on pack for adding hatchet and/or infantry spade if necessary. That's a good setup (yeap, it's showing up) and I like the versatility. For many in the civilian world now, versatility pretty damn important. There isn't a supply room, missions aren't better defined, and the possibility of doing a variety of "missions" is likely higher. While a combat operation is less likely even during SHTF, work still needs to be done, checking snares/traps/trotlines, patrolling the property, working the garden or making a run to the local farmer's market. Having the ability to scale up and down may seem like a PITA at times, but for a layered kit option that covers home defense and a layered approach to fighting gear with sustainment pack options has a lot of merit. ROCK6 |
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Generally have the same opinion as OP, though I'd say the rules applying to chest rigs also apply to plate carriers. Hence my disdain for micro rigs with a plethora of dedicated space for admin bullshit, most I'd want is a navboard for a phone, small notepad, couple pens/sharpies, maybe a small handheld light or multitool, depending on what I'm doing. I do find them lighter, and more convenient than full sized belt kits, especially for training purposes, where you have the same mag placement as when using a plate carrier, without the weight or annoyances of plates. |
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| I think belt kits are more versatile while allowing maximum amount of options. You can still wear a chest rig with it, you can still use short back packs or just remove the buttpack to create space for longer packs. It can be donned and doffed quickly. It would in any kind of scenario have the most use cases and least restrictions |
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I started using field gear in ‘83. The previous generation of cotton based 782 was over and nylon ALICE was in. It was really durable like most gear of the time period. When the LBV-88 vest came out I didn’t like them. The mag pouches were too tight and the angle was off. Lived thru many revisions and trends. I thought the TT Split MAV was the pinnacle until it wasn’t. Eventually started working with 762Tactical to have gear fabricated to my specs. Then came PCs, and on and on and on. The big take away I’ve found is …. People overload their kit with extraneous crap. Keep it simple. |
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Originally Posted By GaryT1776: I started using field gear in ‘83. The previous generation of cotton based 782 was over and nylon ALICE was in. It was really durable like most gear of the time period. When the LBV-88 vest came out I didn’t like them. The mag pouches were too tight and the angle was off. . I was issued the LBV88 in 94, we never used the pockets for mags. I used mine for pogey bait. The huge shoulder pads made carrying too much shit very easy. Mine weighed fully loaded about 40 lbs. |
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Originally Posted By 03RN: I used to hate chest rigs. But now I probably use one as much as a warbelt. I went, a little, the opposite direction. I was very happy to transition to chest rigs, but eventually added a belt to the set up. My mindset is based on simplicity now: Plate Carrier ... front / rear plates, 4 rifle mags on front, 2 TQ, flashlight and Belt ... 2 HG mags, 1 rifle mag, dump pouch, IFAK, holster plus MAP ... 5 rifle mags, hydro bladder, Nalgene (bladders fail), knife or Chest Rig ... 6 rifle mags on front, 2 TQ, flashlight plus 3 Day Pack with Pack-Load-Support Waist Belt ... 10 rifle mags, IFAK, hydro bladder, Nalgene (bladders fail), knife, personal survival kit, other MEK Before someone mentions the weight of 10 mags ... its 10 pounds. I ruck three times a week with a 70+ pound pack. 4 miles on two days, and a minimum of 13.1 miles on the third. |
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One area I have oscillated on is a handgun. The weight of a handgun with (2) spare mags, and a holster is between 62 and 64 ounces. That's four M4 30rd mags worth of weight. I see people online with 9 handgun mags and 2 rifle mags on their kits.  I guess they don't understand the purpose of a sidearm. Apart from your primary failing, I see little value in a handgun unless you're typically leaving your rifle in a rack. A belt order gets very simple without a handgun: 2 rifle mags dump pouch IFAK 2 rifle mags Keeps it light and allows offhand reloads. You could probably stretch this to 3 mags on the support side if you don't mind the DP being a little further back. |
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Originally Posted By wsix: I was issued the LBV88 in 94, we never used the pockets for mags. I used mine for pogey bait. The huge shoulder pads made carrying too much shit very easy. Mine weighed fully loaded about 40 lbs. I've got an LBV88 and I've been thinking of taking the shoulder pads and harness part of it and using it to make a set of ALICE gear. But I've given away all of my ALICE gear, except for 4 x new ALICE pouches that were made to take AK-47 magazines. I'm trying to figure out if I want to go to the trouble of sourcing more ALICE stuff for the project, or selling the mag pouches. I've been thinking about doing that upgrade to a set of ALICE gear since I got the LBV 25 years ago at an army navy store. I just found it again the other day when I was piecing together a set of ALICE gear for one of my nephews to play army man with. |
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Originally Posted By GaryT1776: People overload their kit with extraneous crap. Keep it simple. Originally Posted By GaryT1776: People overload their kit with extraneous crap. Keep it simple. Perfection is achieved not when nothing more can be added, but when nothing can be taken away. Originally Posted By GaryT1776: One area I have oscillated on is a handgun. The weight of a handgun with (2) spare mags, and a holster is between 62 and 64 ounces. That's four M4 30rd mags worth of weight. .... A personal decision for certain, but all of my belt rigs have a handgun. One spare pistol mag goes in my spare rifle ammo/maintenance kit bandoleer,. That lives in the ruck. Handguns are probably not required, but I like them for the following: 1) maneuver in confined spaces 2) more easily accessible when climbing/negotiating steep terrain, when the longarm might be slung 3) back up in case the primary weapon goes down. Unlikely, but, in a small team, someone who can't shoot is a liability. 4) also unlikely, but, if things go hand-to-hand, a long arm is not going to be of much use. |
Don't forget about the Trail of Beers Happy Hour!
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Originally Posted By GaryT1776: One area I have oscillated on is a handgun. The weight of a handgun with (2) spare mags, and a holster is between 62 and 64 ounces. That's four M4 30rd mags worth of weight. I see people online with 9 handgun mags and 2 rifle mags on their kits. I guess they don't understand the purpose of a sidearm. Apart from your primary failing, I see little value in a handgun unless you're typically leaving your rifle in a rack. A belt order gets very simple without a handgun: 2 rifle mags dump pouch IFAK 2 rifle mags Keeps it light and allows offhand reloads. You could probably stretch this to 3 mags on the support side if you don't mind the DP being a little further back. The opposite philosophy applies in a lower intensity environment, where your primary weapon is your CCW, and the long gun becomes the backup that you retrieve when the situation permits, be it a truck or bag gun. This is where commonality of ammunition makes a lot of sense, IE a suppressed PDW using Glock mags. |
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Originally Posted By GaryT1776: One area I have oscillated on is a handgun. The weight of a handgun with (2) spare mags, and a holster is between 62 and 64 ounces. That's four M4 30rd mags worth of weight. I think it's all about philosophy of use. Organized unit combat? Yeah, rifle magazines are a much more important priority. A civilian "minuteman", partisan, insurgent where the asymmetrical warfare oscillates between discreetly armed civilian to a small-scale direct action/ambush mission, and then back to ordinary Joe the plumber, the handgun allows some of that flexibility and gives both overt and covert self-defense applications. I also think for many in the civilian world, it’s hard to ditch your handgun even when you have a rifle. However, that also applied when in mature combat theaters and in more secure operational settings where you could rack/secure your rifle for meals, light work or office work, and still keep your handgun on you. Another aspect is suppression. While a high velocity rifle can be suppressed, it’s marginal in performance. A suppressed handgun with subsonic ammo is much more capable. Action movies. Yeah, Hollywood loves their “operators” having a backup handgun to keep the scenes fast-paced through a variety of fights. ROCK6 |
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Chest rigs were a necessary evil (Page 2 of 2)
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