Armory Sponsor
Posted: 3/22/2010 12:52:21 PM EDT
| So I am looking to add a trauma kit to my rig. I am thinking of picking up a Blue Force Gear Trauma Kit now but what do I put in it? |
|
Start with the contents of a USGI Improved First Aid Kit (IFAK), or a Tactical Response Gear Ventilated Operator Kit (VOK). Get first aid training beyond Red Cross's basic course. If nothing else, order the VOK and the DVD on gunshot wound basics from Tac Response. I'm at work so can't search it, but there's a long ongoing thread in this forum about first aid kit/blowout kit contents.
Basically, keep your blowout kit (GSW/major trauma) separate from the snivel/boo-boo kit. |
|
I got a cheap-o "tactical trauma kit" from elite1staid.com I think. Its a good kit, but I had to tweak it a bit. I swapped the ace bandage for kerlix and added some more 4x4's, duct tape (trust me), another ab pad, and a tourniquet. I'm trying to hunt down a chest seal now. Gotta have trauma shears, too. Also, there's ALOT of good resources on here.
Bob |
|
Quoted:
What do you know how to use? It is all the rage in some circles to carry a kit with a chest decompression kit, NPAs, cric kits, and all manner of other things that the user only has a shaky understanding of when and how it should be used. This is a great point. Get some medical training. Or, atleast ask someone how to use that crap. |
I never thought about it til it was brought up the first time. But having a fair number of civilian pistol/carbine/precision rifle etc courses it is surprising how little attention it paid to being prepared to survive a surviveable wound (you know what I mean ). I have only heard it brought up twice. Just having a tourniquet is something the average idiot can use to survive a serious wound to an extremity. |
|
Quoted:
I never thought about it til it was brought up the first time. But having a fair number of civilian pistol/carbine/precision rifle etc courses it is surprising how little attention it paid to being prepared to survive a surviveable wound (you know what I mean ). I have only heard it brought up twice. Just having a tourniquet is something the average idiot can use to survive a serious wound to an extremity.
Having access to a film production company with extensive .mil/.gov documentary & training film experience, on-camera & narration experience, and a passing familiarity with this stuff myself, maybe I should look into producing some kind of training video and/or class. If there's any interest in this, maybe I'll start checking into the feasibility of it along with liability and consulting with some other docs & medics. I wouldn't expect to replace Magpul's shooting vids on the throne of coolness, or even Tac Response's GSW Basics DVD, but would be interested in making a useful contribution to the shooting community. |
|
Quoted:
I never thought about it til it was brought up the first time. But having a fair number of civilian pistol/carbine/precision rifle etc courses it is surprising how little attention it paid to being prepared to survive a surviveable wound (you know what I mean ). I have only heard it brought up twice. Just having a tourniquet is something the average idiot can use to survive a serious wound to an extremity.
Well those weapon classes aren't suppose to cover medical issues, they're weapon classes. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I never thought about it til it was brought up the first time. But having a fair number of civilian pistol/carbine/precision rifle etc courses it is surprising how little attention it paid to being prepared to survive a surviveable wound (you know what I mean ). I have only heard it brought up twice. Just having a tourniquet is something the average idiot can use to survive a serious wound to an extremity.
Well those weapon classes aren't suppose to cover medical issues, they're weapon classes. Weapons cause medical issues, and it's a fair bet that one may need to treat themselves or another innocent. I'd support the idea of incorporating some basic trauma care into some shooting classes. At a minimum, even a 15 minute medical briefing along the lines of "hold pressure +/- tourniquet" would be useful. It concerns me that at many classes, there may not be anyone (even instructors) adequately trained to handle the basics until EMS arrives. There is a local group that does handgun & carbine classes, maybe I'll discuss the idea with them. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I never thought about it til it was brought up the first time. But having a fair number of civilian pistol/carbine/precision rifle etc courses it is surprising how little attention it paid to being prepared to survive a surviveable wound (you know what I mean ). I have only heard it brought up twice. Just having a tourniquet is something the average idiot can use to survive a serious wound to an extremity.
Well those weapon classes aren't suppose to cover medical issues, they're weapon classes. Weapons cause medical issues, and it's a fair bet that one may need to treat themselves or another innocent. I'd support the idea of incorporating some basic trauma care into some shooting classes. There is a local group that does handgun & carbine classes, maybe I'll discuss the idea with them. I think medical shit is a class that needs to be taught separately. I don't know if you have any experience with it, but it can be complicated. It's difficult to retain the information, especially on top of what comes with a tactical rifle class. |
|
Quoted:
I think medical shit is a class that needs to be taught separately. I don't know if you have any experience with it, but it can be complicated. It's difficult to retain the information, especially on top of what comes with a tactical rifle class. Do teaching crisis resource management and airway skills (among other things) to physicians, PAs, med students, paramedics, and flight nurses in a hi-fidelity simulator, the operating room, and ATLS (Advanced Trauma Life Support) class count towards any experience teaching medical stuff? Like I said, I have at least a passing familiarity with medical training and have attended a number of shooting tactical classes. I have experienced info overload in both shooting and medical education.  One of my primary tasks in simulation creation and execution was creating an environment to test and overload medical folks, so they would be better able to manage crises in real life. Think along the lines of force-on-force or hi-fi airline sims but in a medical environment... was very fascinating stuff.
I wasn't suggesting even a full-blown GSW component to a shooting class unless it is given the full amount of time needed. Just a basic 15 minute "here's what to do if your neighbor on the line NDs into his leg and you should consider helping instead of watching him bleed out" blurb. I agree that a separate GSW course would be good, but it seems that few people take advantage of the classes already offered. Learning how to treat a GSW isn't as glamorous as running & gunning, but is IMHO a vastly under-trained skill set. |
|
There's a reason people pack their FAK, BOK's, etc, etc, with items they are not trained to use and it is this. You may or may not be the one using your kit. If you get hit and a former medic, corpsman or someone with superior medical training comes across you when you are injured it would be nice for them to have everything they need to save your life.
I have no idea how to use the ARS needle in my FAK. I've watcehd the video on NARescue a couple of times but I don't consider that training. But it's there should I become injured and the person who finds me is trained to use it. Same thing with protective gloves. I only carry XL even though I am a med-large. Again, if the person who comes to render aid has huge lumber jack hands and you only have medium gloves will he get to work? I don't know. I know there is a growing population of germaphobes who won't go near bodily fluids with out protection, and can you blame them? HIV, AIDS, Hep and so on and so on. My opinion here, your kit should have all of the tools a highly trained person needs to get the job done because that might be the very person who is there to save you. What's your life worth? ACS needle costs $14.95 and a nasopharyngeal tube, with lube, is another $4.81. I know my life is easily worth $19.76 plus shipping and handling at a minimum. |
|
Quoted:
There's a reason people pack their FAK, BOK's, etc, etc, with items they are not trained to use and it is this. You may or may not be the one using your kit. If you get hit and a former medic, corpsman or someone with superior medical training comes across you when you are injured it would be nice for them to have everything they need to save your life. I have no idea how to use the ARS needle in my FAK. I've watcehd the video on NARescue a couple of times but I don't consider that training. But it's there should I become injured and the person who finds me is trained to use it. Same thing with protective gloves. I only carry XL even though I am a med-large. Again, if the person who comes to render aid has huge lumber jack hands and you only have medium gloves will he get to work? I don't know. I know there is a growing population of germaphobes who won't go near bodily fluids with out protection, and can you blame them? HIV, AIDS, Hep and so on and so on. My opinion here, your kit should have all of the tools a highly trained person needs to get the job done because that might be the very person who is there to save you. What's your life worth? ACS needle costs $14.95 and a nasopharyngeal tube, with lube, is another $4.81. I know my life is easily worth $19.76 plus shipping and handling at a minimum. Well said. |
|
I have a basic kit that I keep on my person at the range. It contains things to deal with extremity hemorrhaging 1) because that is all I have training on treating and 2) because that is the most common cause of gun shot related preventable death. I also have a slightly more extended kit that I keep in a bag or in the car.
Here is a post I did about it on my blog: http://jerkingthetrigger.wordpress.com/2010/03/13/hsgi-bleederblowout-pouch-build-your-compact-blowout-kit/ I use the EXCELLENT HSGI Bleeder pouch. |
|
Quoted:
There's a reason people pack their FAK, BOK's, etc, etc, with items they are not trained to use and it is this. You may or may not be the one using your kit. If you get hit and a former medic, corpsman or someone with superior medical training comes across you when you are injured it would be nice for them to have everything they need to save your life. I have no idea how to use the ARS needle in my FAK. I've watcehd the video on NARescue a couple of times but I don't consider that training. But it's there should I become injured and the person who finds me is trained to use it. Same thing with protective gloves. I only carry XL even though I am a med-large. Again, if the person who comes to render aid has huge lumber jack hands and you only have medium gloves will he get to work? I don't know. I know there is a growing population of germaphobes who won't go near bodily fluids with out protection, and can you blame them? HIV, AIDS, Hep and so on and so on. My opinion here, your kit should have all of the tools a highly trained person needs to get the job done because that might be the very person who is there to save you. What's your life worth? ACS needle costs $14.95 and a nasopharyngeal tube, with lube, is another $4.81. I know my life is easily worth $19.76 plus shipping and handling at a minimum. I understand your point but by that logic everyone should be carrying a full medic's kit just in case. |
|
I disagree. Carrying the basics for the treatment of the 3 main causes of preventable combat death - bleeding, airway obstruction, and pneumothorax - is hardly the same as carrying a full aid bag in my opinion. A small individual-sized kit takes up far less space and IMHO represents a wise balance of bulk vs lifesaving ability. Ymmv of course. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted: But how many guys who go to shooting classes are really going to bother to go to a wound trauma class? We have had trouble filling stuff like retention classes where there is some wrestling around and it's not the usual "blast 1400 rounds of 5.56" carbine class.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I never thought about it til it was brought up the first time. But having a fair number of civilian pistol/carbine/precision rifle etc courses it is surprising how little attention it paid to being prepared to survive a surviveable wound (you know what I mean ). I have only heard it brought up twice. Just having a tourniquet is something the average idiot can use to survive a serious wound to an extremity. Well those weapon classes aren't suppose to cover medical issues, they're weapon classes. Weapons cause medical issues, and it's a fair bet that one may need to treat themselves or another innocent. I'd support the idea of incorporating some basic trauma care into some shooting classes. There is a local group that does handgun & carbine classes, maybe I'll discuss the idea with them. I think medical shit is a class that needs to be taught separately. I don't know if you have any experience with it, but it can be complicated. It's difficult to retain the information, especially on top of what comes with a tactical rifle class. All I was exposed to was pretty basic stuff like tourniquets and a brief talk on the different kinds of quikclot, nothing I hadn't basically seen in Boy Scouts, summer camp first aid classes etc except with an emphasis on gunshots |
|
Quoted:
I agree Aimless. Everyone wants to learn to be a face shooter but few realize there is more to fighting than just shooting. Chances are if you exchange rounds with some jerk you will get hit as well, just something to keep in mind. Another +1 from me. Plus, people make mistakes and should have an idea how to treat them. I'm sitting in front of another patient right now who's getting ready for surgery because he ND'd into himself. Get a few of those a year, some minor and some devastating. |
Make sure you implement using whatever you put in your kit, into your firearms training. I was shot by a friend who had an ND (I'm pretty sure everybody on this board knows the story by now, or has seen me mention it somewhere) in my own home and never once thought of using the medical supplies I had in my shooting bags and chest rig until the paramedics got there and pulled out the 4x4 gauze pads and tape, then the lightbulb went off over my head and I realized I had the exact same stuff in my friggin' closet. 
On another note, my level of first aid training is the basic responder course I learned in the police academy (before I had to quit due to injuries from the above situation). However, if one of my friends got shot and I had an NPA or a chest decomp. needle, I'd use it... I'm not gonna make them any more dead than they're already going to be if I fuck up. I'd still rather have the tools AND the knowledge, but you know what I'm saying. |
|
Quoted:
Get with a EMT/paramedic or mil. combat medic, explain what you want to be able to treat, and LEARN HOW TO USE THE STUFF This is good advise. I''d still recommend against carrying anything YOU don't know how to use but learning to use most of this stuff isn't too difficult. |
|
Quoted: I agree Aimless. Everyone wants to learn to be a face shooter but few realize there is more to fighting than just shooting. Chances are if you exchange rounds with some jerk you will get hit as well, just something to keep in mind. FoF Training will definitely open your eyes to this!! Force On Force is a must take for anybody serious about "self defense" with a pistol.. CXS |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I agree Aimless. Everyone wants to learn to be a face shooter but few realize there is more to fighting than just shooting. Chances are if you exchange rounds with some jerk you will get hit as well, just something to keep in mind. FoF Training will definitely open your eyes to this!! Force On Force is a must take for anybody serious about "self defense" with a pistol.. CXS Truth... we did force on force in our last CCW class, everyone should make time to do that. Anyway, I went with the blue force Trauma Kit Now and put the VOK in it and am adding some other things as well. My Dad is a certified paramedic and for some reason I never thought to ask him about this stuff, until someone said to get some training. He is going to hold a trauma training class for me and the guys we shoot with to teach us to use this stuff. Thanks for all the advice. |
I keep my First aid Kit simple.... Bandages to stop the flow of blood and a tourniquet. I see these guys with Kits the size of a cinder block strapped on there belts and I chuckle... Chances are if your the one who gets shot... the folks around you are the one who needs the training on how to use all that stuff... not you.. So what's the point..
I try to focus on not getting shot in the first place...
|
|
What I did was put together a VERY simple dressing/gauze/tourniquet kit, vacuum sealed it with my foodsaver, and stuck it in my bag.
Please forgive the really crappy cellphone pic, but you get the idea. 
Vac sealed and ready to go 
I taped the shears to the outside of the bag, but the bag has easy tear open notches every 3" or so on each side. I would need to cut clothing, seatbelts, etc before I needed to get into the kit, and if my fingers start slipping I can use them to get into the bag if need be. For $55 I put together a real nice kit from chinook med to keep in my bag. http://chinookmed.com/ 2 Israeli 4" bandage 1 6" floating 2 piece Israeli bandage EMT shears A big box of gloves. (you get 100 in a box for $5, use the rest for garage projects or something) 1 battle Tourniquet 2 eye pad dressings 2 cheap rubber band tourniquets 2 triangular bandages 2 vac sealed gauze 1 chem light 1 20ft roll of duct tape 15g of celox only in case of a bad BAD BAD bleeding situation. Anything on that list that I bought two of.. I opened one of them up and played with them so I could see how the package opened, what I got, how strong it was.. etc.. I would strongly advise it. If you need to open them in the dark or do it on yourself.. it would be a good move. The israeli bandages come double bagged (I didn't know that until I opened the first one) I took some first aid classes where they covered some basic wound dressing, burn treatment, tourniquets, CPR, etc. So I only bought the stuff I knew how to use. I know there is the justification to "have the tools ready for the trained people that get there.. BUT.. if you used this criteria on every little thing you'd end up carrying 100lbs. I don't have ANY use or training for airway clearing, chest needles, etc, so building my own kit was well worth it. |
| unpleasant, good job in building a kit with your preferences in mind. One comment - those blue rubber tourniquets are what we use for IV starts. They will stop venous return enough to engorge a vein, but won't stop arterial bleeding. I'd ditch them in favor of a real tourniquet. If you have a bleeding emergency with that kit, you're probably better off using your triangular bandage and a stick to make a "Russian tourniquet." I've built one of those on myself in under 20 seconds, just to see how workable it was. It hurt, was crude, and also stopped the pulses in my arm. |
|
Quoted:
unpleasant, good job in building a kit with your preferences in mind. One comment - those blue rubber tourniquets are what we use for IV starts. They will stop venous return enough to engorge a vein, but won't stop arterial bleeding. I'd ditch them in favor of a real tourniquet. If you have a bleeding emergency with that kit, you're probably better off using your triangular bandage and a stick to make a "Russian tourniquet." I've built one of those on myself in under 20 seconds, just to see how workable it was. It hurt, was crude, and also stopped the pulses in my arm. I've got a Tourni-Kwik tourniquet in there. 
you can't see it in the kit laid out because it's still in the package or very well through the package.. but it's in there 
I figured might find a use for them, and for 30cents a pop and literally NO added weight, why not. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get with a EMT/paramedic or mil. combat medic, explain what you want to be able to treat, and LEARN HOW TO USE THE STUFF This is good advise. I''d still recommend against carrying anything YOU don't know how to use but learning to use most of this stuff isn't too difficult. for anyone curious look up the army CLS/TCCC classes. Geared towards maximum survivability and taught towards the lowest common denominator. A lot of the stuff is open source, i even saw some of the semi-recent pubs in the survival forum. You need at least a basic understanding of the equipment to even use an israeli dressing and kerlix, so a modicum of training is necessary, even if its just self-research. The good thing is that even things like NPA's and needle decompressions can be easily managed by somebody who has a basic grasp and a very small amount of training. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get with a EMT/paramedic or mil. combat medic, explain what you want to be able to treat, and LEARN HOW TO USE THE STUFF This is good advise. I''d still recommend against carrying anything YOU don't know how to use but learning to use most of this stuff isn't too difficult. for anyone curious look up the army CLS/TCCC classes. Geared towards maximum survivability and taught towards the lowest common denominator. A lot of the stuff is open source, i even saw some of the semi-recent pubs in the survival forum. You need at least a basic understanding of the equipment to even use an israeli dressing and kerlix, so a modicum of training is necessary, even if its just self-research. The good thing is that even things like NPA's and needle decompressions can be easily managed by somebody who has a basic grasp and a very small amount of training. This is great advice. I actually have a copy of the book from the last CLS class I went to cause I'm not likely to go through another class. This material is open source, unclassified and pretty much available for anyone. The material is easy to read and you can read through it section by section to ensure maximum soakage. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get with a EMT/paramedic or mil. combat medic, explain what you want to be able to treat, and LEARN HOW TO USE THE STUFF This is good advise. I''d still recommend against carrying anything YOU don't know how to use but learning to use most of this stuff isn't too difficult. for anyone curious look up the army CLS/TCCC classes. Geared towards maximum survivability and taught towards the lowest common denominator. A lot of the stuff is open source, i even saw some of the semi-recent pubs in the survival forum. You need at least a basic understanding of the equipment to even use an israeli dressing and kerlix, so a modicum of training is necessary, even if its just self-research. The good thing is that even things like NPA's and needle decompressions can be easily managed by somebody who has a basic grasp and a very small amount of training. This is great advice. I actually have a copy of the book from the last CLS class I went to cause I'm not likely to go through another class. This material is open source, unclassified and pretty much available for anyone. The material is easy to read and you can read through it section by section to ensure maximum soakage. I've been through it 7-8 times and I still volunteer to go back through every time I get a chance. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get with a EMT/paramedic or mil. combat medic, explain what you want to be able to treat, and LEARN HOW TO USE THE STUFF This is good advise. I''d still recommend against carrying anything YOU don't know how to use but learning to use most of this stuff isn't too difficult. for anyone curious look up the army CLS/TCCC classes. Geared towards maximum survivability and taught towards the lowest common denominator. A lot of the stuff is open source, i even saw some of the semi-recent pubs in the survival forum. You need at least a basic understanding of the equipment to even use an israeli dressing and kerlix, so a modicum of training is necessary, even if its just self-research. The good thing is that even things like NPA's and needle decompressions can be easily managed by somebody who has a basic grasp and a very small amount of training. This is great advice. I actually have a copy of the book from the last CLS class I went to cause I'm not likely to go through another class. This material is open source, unclassified and pretty much available for anyone. The material is easy to read and you can read through it section by section to ensure maximum soakage. Do they have any of this CLS stuff on DVD, by chance? |
|
If you're looking for ready to go "Blow-Out Kit", we offer several and even out "cheap" kit (the BAK) is capable of stopping real bleeding. We also offer custom packing and all the items individually...
www.cavalrymedical.com Our kits are used by Police Depsrtments all over the country and we just sent samples of the tourniquets to Ft. Detrick for evaluation (they contacted us)... |
| FYI, we usually carry 2 kits- a self- aid on the pistol belt that is 2 standard field bandages, a tourniquet, and the super-pil kit. The more comprehensive one that has the quick clot, hem-cons, decompresion needle, kerlex, ashermans, eye patch, etc. is kept on the back of the plate carrier. The reasoning and experience dictates that when you are hit in a firefight, its very rare that the individual has the ability or inclination to self-employ most of the contents of the kit. Thats why it's kept on the rear where a teammate can get to it, things like ammo and frags are on the front, and the smaller kit is on the belt, if nothing else the small kit gives you something to play with until a trained medic can give you some real first aid. |
|
Quoted:
FYI, we usually carry 2 kits- a self- aid on the pistol belt that is 2 standard field bandages, a tourniquet, and the super-pil kit. The more comprehensive one that has the quick clot, hem-cons, decompresion needle, kerlex, ashermans, eye patch, etc. is kept on the back of the plate carrier. The reasoning and experience dictates that when you are hit in a firefight, its very rare that the individual has the ability or inclination to self-employ most of the contents of the kit. Thats why it's kept on the rear where a teammate can get to it, things like ammo and frags are on the front, and the smaller kit is on the belt, if nothing else the small kit gives you something to play with until a trained medic can give you some real first aid. THANK YOU for your service, and for that excellent updated info. Stay safe. 
|
|
Quoted:
I keep my First aid Kit simple.... Bandages to stop the flow of blood and a tourniquet. I see these guys with Kits the size of a cinder block strapped on there belts and I chuckle... Chances are if your the one who gets shot... the folks around you are the one who needs the training on how to use all that stuff... not you.. So what's the point..
I try to focus on not getting shot in the first place... We were taught to use the wounded's gear on the wounded. You don't want a wounded man to take his unused kit with him when he gets evacuated. Hopefully everyone has some life saving training. BK |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I keep my First aid Kit simple.... Bandages to stop the flow of blood and a tourniquet. I see these guys with Kits the size of a cinder block strapped on there belts and I chuckle... Chances are if your the one who gets shot... the folks around you are the one who needs the training on how to use all that stuff... not you.. So what's the point..
I try to focus on not getting shot in the first place... We were taught to use the wounded's gear on the wounded. You don't want a wounded man to take his unused kit with him when he gets evacuated. Hopefully everyone has some life saving training. BK You always use the causalty's FAK first. Many times in Iraq I humped around a CLS bag not because anyone told me I had to, but because I wanted to make sure we had enough stuff if something bad happened. In a large attack you could need 6-7 CATs easily, plus packing gauze, hemostatic dressings, etc. |
Armory Sponsor