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Armor Plates (Page 11 of 12)
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Originally Posted By E__WOK:
Originally Posted By djsmiles:
maybe this has been answered. will stand alone plates require a soft armor backer to prevent blunt force trauma? That's why it's called stand alone. so, if i have this right, i will not need soft armor while using stand alone plates? |
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Originally Posted By djsmiles:
Originally Posted By E__WOK:
Originally Posted By djsmiles:
maybe this has been answered. will stand alone plates require a soft armor backer to prevent blunt force trauma? That's why it's called stand alone. so, if i have this right, i will not need soft armor while using stand alone plates? Not sure how to quote a reply within a reply, so I'll do it manually: "That's why it's called stand alone." That being said, it's probably a good idea to wear some plate backers (or soft armor) with the plates. The standalone plate is rated standalone in that it alone will stop penetration of the round but you could still receive an impact great enough to bust you up pretty good. In other words, you won't be bleeding out, you'll be bleeding in, which while an improvement, still requires some medical attention. Walking away with broken ribs is better than having holes in you but can be more preventable with some proper backing. |
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Originally Posted By djsmiles:
Originally Posted By E__WOK:
Originally Posted By djsmiles:
maybe this has been answered. will stand alone plates require a soft armor backer to prevent blunt force trauma? That's why it's called stand alone. so, if i have this right, i will not need soft armor while using stand alone plates? In-Conjunction vs Stand Alone is about stopping penetration. A stand alone plate still might knock the shit out of you with backface deformation if you're struck. It is always a good policy to have soft armor or a trauma pad underneath your standalone plates. |
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Alright well, I'm not sure if this is the right place for it, but a few manufacturers have come out with ar500 and Omega armor curved and flat plates. Both styles are cut to fit in standard armor carriers. Both AR500 armor and Omega have similar performance characteristics, but they also suffer from severe fragmentation damage to the wearer of the armor. I have spent a rather serious amount of time and effort in finding ways to reduce the fragmentation in an effort to make the AR500 and Omega armors viable. There is one primary thread, which is still running, that outlines the primary self-help methods of eliminating or reducing fragmentation (aka spalling). There are three primary methods of doing such a task:
Each of these methods have proven to take over 20 rounds of 5.56 @50 yards without failure. |
So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc
-SKWhitlc
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Alright well, I'm not sure if this is the right place for it, but a few manufacturers have come out with ar500 and Omega armor curved and flat plates. Both styles are cut to fit in standard armor carriers. Both AR500 armor and Omega have similar performance characteristics, but they also suffer from severe fragmentation damage to the wearer of the armor. I have spent a rather serious amount of time and effort in finding ways to reduce the fragmentation in an effort to make the AR500 and Omega armors viable. There is one primary thread, which is still running, that outlines the primary self-help methods of eliminating or reducing fragmentation (aka spalling). There are three primary methods of doing such a task:
Each of these methods have proven to take over 20 rounds of 5.56 @50 yards without failure. Will it handle ak and .308win rounds? How much and where would one buy it from? |
| Not sure how to search this thread, so maybe it's been posted here before, but what's the lowdown on steel/ceramic "hybrid" plates like the AirSave? Are they any good? Do they degrade in heat or break easily if mishandled? I've only owned IIIA soft armor up to this point but I'm thinking about getting a PC with level IV plates and I can get a really good deal locally on these. |
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We have AirSave plates for our aircrew guys (squre cut) and they don't get handled lightly at all and I haven't had one come back bad from inspection yet.
Alright well, I'm not sure if this is the right place for it, but a few manufacturers have come out with ar500 and Omega armor curved and flat plates.
Both styles are cut to fit in standard armor carriers. Both AR500 armor and Omega have similar performance characteristics, but they also suffer from severe fragmentation damage to the wearer of the armor. I have spent a rather serious amount of time and effort in finding ways to reduce the fragmentation in an effort to make the AR500 and Omega armors viable. There is one primary thread, which is still running, that outlines the primary self-help methods of eliminating or reducing fragmentation (aka spalling). There are three primary methods of doing such a task: 1.5 layers of kevlar, glued one on top of each other, on the face of the plate 2.3+ layers of kevlar, with truck bed liner (Herculiner) between each and on top 3.A layer of .5 inches of herculiner or other bedliner alone Each of these methods have proven to take over 20 rounds of 5.56 @50 yards without failure. Were you able to do any testing using M193 ammo on those plates? Did they penetrate? This has been a major concern for me and kept me from buying these plates because M193 could be a very real threat in my area. |
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Originally Posted By ICEAGE: Will it handle ak and .308win rounds? How much and where would one buy it from? Yep, I shot all of them with .308, just a small dimple. I think I paid between $30 and $50 depending on source. |
So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc
-SKWhitlc
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Originally Posted By jeepinbanditrider: Were you able to do any testing using M193 ammo on those plates? Did they penetrate? This has been a major concern for me and kept me from buying these plates because M193 could be a very real threat in my area. We shot it with 855 and 193. The 193 penetrated after 20+ hits to the exact same spot at a distance of 50 yards. |
So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc
-SKWhitlc
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1340155_de_spalling_the__49_99_Omega_Armor__PIC_HEAVY_.html |
So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc
-SKWhitlc
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y: Alright well, I'm not sure if this is the right place for it, but a few manufacturers have come out with ar500 and Omega armor curved and flat plates. Both styles are cut to fit in standard armor carriers. Both AR500 armor and Omega have similar performance characteristics, but they also suffer from severe fragmentation damage to the wearer of the armor. I have spent a rather serious amount of time and effort in finding ways to reduce the fragmentation in an effort to make the AR500 and Omega armors viable. There is one primary thread, which is still running, that outlines the primary self-help methods of eliminating or reducing fragmentation (aka spalling). There are three primary methods of doing such a task:
Each of these methods have proven to take over 20 rounds of 5.56 @50 yards without failure. Have you tested impacts that aren't normal to the surface of the plate? I am curious to see how the various treatments act when hit with more oblique shots. where did you find armor steel plates at $30 a piece, the best price I could find was about $60, and most are ~$80. IM me if you have a link. |
"sometimes I wish I knew how to move and shit and not get it on my legs, maybe I will practice that." -RustedAce
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By jeepinbanditrider:
Were you able to do any testing using M193 ammo on those plates? Did they penetrate? This has been a major concern for me and kept me from buying these plates because M193 could be a very real threat in my area. We shot it with 855 and 193. The 193 penetrated after 20+ hits to the exact same spot at a distance of 50 yards. This still omits the fact that M193 will penetrate AR500 1/4" plate like butter under 50 feet. The average distance at which an urban firefight occurs is 21 feet. |
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Originally Posted By Layer60: This still omits the fact that M193 will penetrate AR500 1/4" plate like butter under 50 feet. The average distance at which an urban firefight occurs is 21 feet. If m193's MV is 3165 and it's 50 yard velocity is 2973, then you are talking a difference of 192 fps. Are you asserting that a difference of 128 fps (192/3x2) is sufficient to make the difference in penetration? Also, can you link to the stats regarding urban firefight? I'm a stat freak, and I've never EVEN HEARD that. I'll further add that if you are fighting with a rifle at 21 feet, you are pretty fucked, and a 10x12 plate on your midsection is the very least of your worries. There are limitations on body armor, learn them. |
So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc
-SKWhitlc
Nah, you need a good Reflex Save to help with splash damage. 
But seriously, it will help the most only if it's wrapped around the edges, since the spalling primarily travels parallel to the face of the plate. If it's a plate backer just sitting in front of the plate, spall can and likely will escape through the edges, passing between the steel and Kevlar and into your squishy bits. |
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Originally Posted By Aramark: We didn't test it actually. We assumed it wouldn't work.I'm sorry i didn't not read all 20 plus page of this thread, but putting soft armor in front of the ar500 help with "splash" damage? thank you |
So you are right, but by being so, you are also obfuscating the truth.
-SKWhitlc
-SKWhitlc
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Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By Aramark:
We didn't test it actually. We assumed it wouldn't work.
I'm sorry i didn't not read all 20 plus page of this thread, but putting soft armor in front of the ar500 help with "splash" damage? thank you I am sure it would help but not completely stop the shrapnel from coming out as there is a gap between the two. |
The voice of reason from the clinically insane.
Paulbot # AL4321T34
Paulbot # AL4321T34
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Originally Posted By smaddox:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By Aramark:
We didn't test it actually. We assumed it wouldn't work.
I'm sorry i didn't not read all 20 plus page of this thread, but putting soft armor in front of the ar500 help with "splash" damage? thank you I am sure it would help but not completely stop the shrapnel from coming out as there is a gap between the two. I doubt it would make any significant difference. |
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Originally Posted By FAB-10_Guy:
Originally Posted By smaddox:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By Aramark:
We didn't test it actually. We assumed it wouldn't work.
I'm sorry i didn't not read all 20 plus page of this thread, but putting soft armor in front of the ar500 help with "splash" damage? thank you I am sure it would help but not completely stop the shrapnel from coming out as there is a gap between the two. I doubt it would make any significant difference. Might not. Either way it still has shrapnel coming out. |
The voice of reason from the clinically insane.
Paulbot # AL4321T34
Paulbot # AL4321T34
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I'm still worried about shots that impact at an angle. For a hit normal to the plane of the armor the bullet is going to fragment a lot, and the small pieces are a lot easier to stop (less momentum). For an angled hit, the bullet may not fragment as much and it'll be a lot harder to stop a bigger piece of frag. Someone should test a hit at about 30° and about 45° |
"sometimes I wish I knew how to move and shit and not get it on my legs, maybe I will practice that." -RustedAce
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Originally Posted By Caeser2001:
Bumping to the first page. no need, new thread http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1340155_de_spalling_the__49_99_Omega_Armor__PIC_HEAVY_.html |
"I'm gonna need to dip you in holy water"
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Originally Posted By WS6_Keith:
Since this was brought to the top...I thought I'd mention that I recently contacted International Armor - the same people that make the Level III plates that DSG sells, and sold in the group purchase about a year ago. Anyway, they have the capability to make 6x6 side plates and are going to do a run, soon to be available from DSG. I haven't received pricing info yet, but if you're looking for side plates in this size, it would be a good idea to let [email protected] know. :) While researching body armor options & referrencing manufacturers & vendors on this thread & elsewhere I checked out DSG/International Armor Corp. & found some concerning info (especially relating to those who already purchased armor made by IAC). Normally I wouldn't take the time to post something like this, but because it concerns many members on here that purchased their Level III plates from DSG I felt it was worth pointing out & getting other points of view & actual facts from anyone who may have info regarding the subject. First thing is International Armor Corporation isn't listed on theNIJ Website under armor companies who have had products tested & certified (Again, I'm not an expert & I don't know how serious this is, but it does seem concerning). Second issue I found when I typed their name in google was a thread on another forum about an LEO who purchased their "Titanium/Steel Level III plates" & discovered they aren't titanium (probably not a big surprise there), but also shot them with .308 & the plate was penetrated by the second round fired. Now this is only one example of this happening, but if I owned these plates I would be worried about protection. Here is the search Where I found the thread https://www.google.com/search?q=international+armor+corporation&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari I'm not trying to bash DSG or IAC & have nothing to gain from doing so. I'm just trying to find the best solution that will reliably work when/if the time comes that I need to use it & if these statements in the linked post are true & AIC doesn't have NIJ certification to warn those who own their plates & any who may purchase them in the future. It seems the more info I read on the subject of body armor, specifically where to buy quality gear, the more clouded the options become... |
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Originally Posted By EOTWAWKI:
Originally Posted By WS6_Keith:
Since this was brought to the top...I thought I'd mention that I recently contacted International Armor - the same people that make the Level III plates that DSG sells, and sold in the group purchase about a year ago. Anyway, they have the capability to make 6x6 side plates and are going to do a run, soon to be available from DSG. I haven't received pricing info yet, but if you're looking for side plates in this size, it would be a good idea to let [email protected] know. :) While researching body armor options & referrencing manufacturers & vendors on this thread & elsewhere I checked out DSG/International Armor Corp. & found some concerning info (especially relating to those who already purchased armor made by IAC). Normally I wouldn't take the time to post something like this, but because it concerns many members on here that purchased their Level III plates from DSG I felt it was worth pointing out & getting other points of view & actual facts from anyone who may have info regarding the subject. First thing is International Armor Corporation isn't listed on theNIJ Website under armor companies who have had products tested & certified (Again, I'm not an expert & I don't know how serious this is, but it does seem concerning). Second issue I found when I typed their name in google was a thread on another forum about an LEO who purchased their "Titanium/Steel Level III plates" & discovered they aren't titanium (probably not a big surprise there), but also shot them with .308 & the plate was penetrated by the second round fired. Now this is only one example of this happening, but if I owned these plates I would be worried about protection. Here is the search Where I found the thread https://www.google.com/search?q=international+armor+corporation&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari I'm not trying to bash DSG or IAC & have nothing to gain from doing so. I'm just trying to find the best solution that will reliably work when/if the time comes that I need to use it & if these statements in the linked post are true & AIC doesn't have NIJ certification to warn those who own their plates & any who may purchase them in the future. It seems the more info I read on the subject of body armor, specifically where to buy quality gear, the more clouded the options become... That are plenty of great plates out there that are not NIJ certified. You just have to know which companies you can trust. That being said, I would never trust my life to anything made by IAC. No way. |
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Originally Posted By Layer60:
M2AP (which is basically .30-06 Armor Piercing). Level IV plates will stop anything you can reasonably expect to encounter. They are just heavy. Originally Posted By Layer60:
Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Level V plates what do they stop? M2AP (which is basically .30-06 Armor Piercing). Level IV plates will stop anything you can reasonably expect to encounter. They are just heavy. Mine are 6.7lbs each |
"I wouldn't stand in front of a supersoaker filled with piss. Does that make it a good pistol?" - Caboose314
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Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Mine are 6.7lbs each Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Originally Posted By Layer60:
Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Level V plates what do they stop? M2AP (which is basically .30-06 Armor Piercing). Level IV plates will stop anything you can reasonably expect to encounter. They are just heavy. Mine are 6.7lbs each 6.7-7.3 is typical of level IV. That's heavy for armor. |
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Originally Posted By Layer60:
6.7-7.3 is typical of level IV. That's heavy for armor. Originally Posted By Layer60:
Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Originally Posted By Layer60:
Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Level V plates what do they stop? M2AP (which is basically .30-06 Armor Piercing). Level IV plates will stop anything you can reasonably expect to encounter. They are just heavy. Mine are 6.7lbs each 6.7-7.3 is typical of level IV. That's heavy for armor. What doe ESAPI's weigh? |
"I wouldn't stand in front of a supersoaker filled with piss. Does that make it a good pistol?" - Caboose314
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Originally Posted By Arkady:
ESAPI, according to Wikipedia: Extra Small - 1.70 kg (3.75 lb) Small - 2.08 kg (4.60 lb) Medium - 2.50 kg (5.50 lb) Large - 2.85 kg (6.30 lb) Extra Large - 3.25 kg (7.20 lb) Worth noting that there is a "Heavy ESAPI" spec also sometimes just called HSAPI, that is heavier than these listed weights. These HSAPI plates pop up from time to time as DBT, among others, sold them for some time, and may still sell them. |
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Originally Posted By Arkady:
ESAPI, according to Wikipedia: Extra Small - 1.70 kg (3.75 lb) Small - 2.08 kg (4.60 lb) Medium - 2.50 kg (5.50 lb) Large - 2.85 kg (6.30 lb) Extra Large - 3.25 kg (7.20 lb) Now correct me if I'm wrong b/c i'm not an E-SAPI expert but aren't E-SAPI's only level 4 with a 3a vest behind it? |
"I wouldn't stand in front of a supersoaker filled with piss. Does that make it a good pistol?" - Caboose314
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Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Now correct me if I'm wrong b/c i'm not an E-SAPI expert but aren't E-SAPI's only level 4 with a 3a vest behind it? Originally Posted By bradpierson26:
Originally Posted By Arkady:
ESAPI, according to Wikipedia: Extra Small - 1.70 kg (3.75 lb) Small - 2.08 kg (4.60 lb) Medium - 2.50 kg (5.50 lb) Large - 2.85 kg (6.30 lb) Extra Large - 3.25 kg (7.20 lb) Now correct me if I'm wrong b/c i'm not an E-SAPI expert but aren't E-SAPI's only level 4 with a 3a vest behind it? Essentially, that is correct. Although tested to different specs than NIJ, it is not a full-bore standalone level IV. |
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I've read this whole damn thing and I'm still at a loss. I just want some plates that will stop 5.56 55 grain xm193, 5.56 62 grail LAP xm855/ss109 and 308. Is there something that won't kill my savings?
So far I am right where I started for SHTF someday plates. AR500 armor with buildup linex coating and shooter cuts. And just pray to the Murphy's law gods that I don't get shot by xm193 closer than 50 yards. WTF can't we have a solution to this by now. ETA. Should have mentioned. Not interested in level 4. The multi hit style of level 3 is what I want. I'm more concerned with not being able to replace my plates after one hit destroys them, more than I am concerned about encountering 30 caliber armor piercing ammo. |
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Originally Posted By Mikehikes:
I've read this whole damn thing and I'm still at a loss. I just want some plates that will stop 5.56 55 grain xm193, 5.56 62 grail LAP xm855/ss109 and 308. Is there something that won't kill my savings? So far I am right where I started for SHTF someday plates. AR500 armor with buildup linex coating and shooter cuts. And just pray to the Murphy's law gods that I don't get shot by xm193 closer than 50 yards. WTF can't we have a solution to this by now. ETA. Should have mentioned. Not interested in level 4. The multi hit style of level 3 is what I want. I'm more concerned with not being able to replace my plates after one hit destroys them, more than I am concerned about encountering 30 caliber armor piercing ammo. A dependable level III (or what the manufacturer is likely to call "III+") is what you want. In my opinion, III+ is the best of all worlds. A ceram/PE hybrid is the most common solution for this. The bad news is that you want something cheap, and they won't be. Actually, I should be more specific and say that anything III+ that is cheap is probably something you don't want to buy. What is your budget, if I may ask? I doubt you will get out for less than $800 on a worthy set of III+ plates. |
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I would say 200 per plate would be the most I could do in the next year. I am behind enemy lines in CT and pinching every penny to get the hell out.
I am hoping that someone has come up with a steel plate that will defeat higher velocity rounds. Specifically m193. |
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Originally Posted By Mikehikes:
I've read this whole damn thing and I'm still at a loss. I just want some plates that will stop 5.56 55 grain xm193, 5.56 62 grail LAP xm855/ss109 and 308. Is there something that won't kill my savings? So far I am right where I started for SHTF someday plates. AR500 armor with buildup linex coating and shooter cuts. And just pray to the Murphy's law gods that I don't get shot by xm193 closer than 50 yards. WTF can't we have a solution to this by now. ETA. Should have mentioned. Not interested in level 4. The multi hit style of level 3 is what I want. I'm more concerned with not being able to replace my plates after one hit destroys them, more than I am concerned about encountering 30 caliber armor piercing ammo. Just like guns, all armor plate choices have a tradeoff. There's no single solution for everything. There are LV4 ceramics out there available for cheaper than you think ($115 a plate or less), but as you know, now you have to deal with having them damaged, exposure, and be compromised after a hit or two. Still, I don't think many people know they are available that cheaply these days. I thought it out and went with AR500 steel plates for a lot of reasons, but my reasons won't be sufficient for other's needs. I wanted something fairly economical because there are very few situations I would deploy them in. I wanted ruggedness for long term use. I decided that getting shot specifically in the 8x10 cavity the plate covers by XM193 out of a 16" or greater barreled weapon inside 25 yards is not something that worries me enough to get something that compromises reason 1 and 2. Others will not share the same opinion, but that doesn't matter to me. Get what meets the greatest need and don't worry about the trade offs. |
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Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:
Just like guns, all armor plate choices have a tradeoff. There's no single solution for everything. There are LV4 ceramics out there available for cheaper than you think ($115 a plate or less), but as you know, now you have to deal with having them damaged, exposure, and be compromised after a hit or two. Still, I don't think many people know they are available that cheaply these days. I thought it out and went with AR500 steel plates for a lot of reasons, but my reasons won't be sufficient for other's needs. ]I wanted something fairly economical because there are very few situations I would deploy them in. I wanted ruggedness for long term use. I decided that getting shot specifically in the 8x10 cavity the plate covers by XM193 out of a 16" or greater barreled weapon inside 25 yards is not something that worries me enough to get something that compromises reason 1 and 2. Others will not share the same opinion, but that doesn't matter to me. Get what meets the greatest need and don't worry about the trade offs. Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:
Originally Posted By Mikehikes:
I've read this whole damn thing and I'm still at a loss. I just want some plates that will stop 5.56 55 grain xm193, 5.56 62 grail LAP xm855/ss109 and 308. Is there something that won't kill my savings? So far I am right where I started for SHTF someday plates. AR500 armor with buildup linex coating and shooter cuts. And just pray to the Murphy's law gods that I don't get shot by xm193 closer than 50 yards. WTF can't we have a solution to this by now. ETA. Should have mentioned. Not interested in level 4. The multi hit style of level 3 is what I want. I'm more concerned with not being able to replace my plates after one hit destroys them, more than I am concerned about encountering 30 caliber armor piercing ammo. Just like guns, all armor plate choices have a tradeoff. There's no single solution for everything. There are LV4 ceramics out there available for cheaper than you think ($115 a plate or less), but as you know, now you have to deal with having them damaged, exposure, and be compromised after a hit or two. Still, I don't think many people know they are available that cheaply these days. I thought it out and went with AR500 steel plates for a lot of reasons, but my reasons won't be sufficient for other's needs. ]I wanted something fairly economical because there are very few situations I would deploy them in. I wanted ruggedness for long term use. I decided that getting shot specifically in the 8x10 cavity the plate covers by XM193 out of a 16" or greater barreled weapon inside 25 yards is not something that worries me enough to get something that compromises reason 1 and 2. Others will not share the same opinion, but that doesn't matter to me. Get what meets the greatest need and don't worry about the trade offs. It's like your in my brain! Pretty sure that's were I am going to end up as well. |
Guns don't kill people, the gubbermint does.
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Armor Plates (Page 11 of 12)
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