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Posted: 6/1/2005 7:47:09 PM EDT
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I have a BHI DAOV and love the fit of it. I can carry plenty of ammo and gear with an integrated camel bak hydration system. The only thing I dont like is that it doesnt have a built in plate carrier so I was thinking of getting a WEESATCH WASATCH vest I want one that will carry 12 30rd mags, have side pockets for additional gear, plate carrier and some way to integrate my NBC Camel Bak. I also plan to add my drop leg holster, a drop leg mag pouch, radio pouch and possibly a butt pack. Any suggestions on which vest to buy and where to get it at a good price? |
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So, all of you guys wearing a wasatch dont carry sidearms? The wasatch might not hold enough of my gear and I cant add a subload or drop leg holster. I may just get a plate carrier and put it on under my vest instead of modifying my DAOV Are there any other vest that my fit more gear, allow plates and subloads? Any recommendations on which plates to get? Im looknig for level 4 stand alone plates |
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With my current DAOV vest I carry; 12 AR mags in front (4 pouches that hold 3 30rd mags for a total of 12 mags) M40 gas mask on the right side pouch, M40 filter, radio and scope in the left pouch Right thigh drop leg holster for Sig226R 40 with 12rd mag pouch and lanyarn Left thigh drop leg subload with 2 30rd AR mags and 2 12rd sig mags NBC Camel Bak in the rear pouch incorporated into vest 1Smoke grenade pouch for M8 HC or M18 I also have a small pouch that carries 4 20rd AR mags In the 4 small pockets over my chest I carry my X200 surefire flash light, bug spray, leather man tool, compas, 3volt and Aimpoint batteries & face paint. I carry an extra 12rd Sig mag in another pouch on the side of one of the ARmag pouches. The vest also has 2 buttpacks in the back, but I only use the lower one if I plan on a 3 day trip. If I plan on a longer trip I use my ALICE pack and remove the 2 buttpacks 3day butt pack includes MREs, survival stuff, poncho, extra smoke and cleaning kit. ALICE pack includes the same but with more ammo In total 500rds (530rds with one mag in the rifle) of 223 and 60rds (with one mag in the Sig) of 40 cal ammo. Also if I feel I need more ammo I remove the pouch with the 4 20rd AR mags and add a single pouch that can hold 5 30rd AR mags and 2 M8s or M18s. The weight is about 50 lbs but fits well Im 220lbs and 6'1" |
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I already have my pistol on my belt. Either on my duty belt or IWB off duty. That's the reason I like the weesatch - it rides high enough that I don't have to move anything inorder to deploy it. Weesatch leaving room for my IWB-carried USP |
Needs determine equipment. Determine your needs and planned use and it will be easier to determine what gear you must have and what gear is "nice to have". What scenario do you envision needing all the gear you mentioned in? Have you tried even moderate exertion with a rifle while wearing all that gear? Just to use one example... set up two chairs on the range with one chair about 10-15yds forward of the other. Start at the first chair. Fire 5-10rds at a target and then sprint to the next chair. Kneel behind it like you were taking cover. Fire 5-10rds from that position at the target and then move back to the other chair. Do this for about 150 seconds total. At the end of this very brief and very moderate evaluation, you should have a good idea of whether you are physically fit enough to run 50+lbs on your first and second line and whether you want to add another 11-20lbs of rifle plates on top of it. |
Looking for a SHTF/Bug out vest. In this case I need a $hit load of ammo and some survival gear. I believe the Seals when doing recon or search and destroy carry loads of ammo for quick attack with a quick retreat. I want a vest that allows me to dump 100s of rounds down range quickly to cover my retreat. IMHO 300rds of ammo isnt enough. You can go through that in minutes. I bet the guys in Somolia wish they had more ammo when they got cut off from reinforcement. Even if its heavy at first the load will lighten quickly after a few minutes of supressive fire. This vest isnt for SWAT purpose where maybe 2 mags are used max, supplies are 10 feet away and the enemy is one or two bamb ass retards who dont know how to aim a gun. This is a personal SHTF gear which allows me to protect my home or escape route against multiple targets with out backup. |
umm....  I hate to say it, but in the scenario you have described, if you really NEED 200+ rds of ammo, you are already dead. Seriously. I have seen the videos etc of SEALs doing their "suppressive fire to break contact" drills, but that's a half dozen guys who do that shit for a living and have a couple of beltfeds, grenades, etc., not to mention arty and/or close air support and/or helo extraction if they need it. In terms of "bugging out", I think you'd be better off thinking about concealment and avoidance. Carry 6 or 8 mags for your AR (which is probably overkill) 2-4 mags for your handgun, and more food/water/med-supplies etc to make up the weight. If you are moving alone and/or with a couple of unarmed/untrained family members and get into anything that requires more than a handful of well placed shots, I can almost promise you that it's all over anyway. One guy wildly dumping ammo to cover his retreat will usually be easily handled by one guy with a cool head with one well-placed round. I vote Weesatch... or a Woosatch with an EGL Fugly and 6-packer. (If you MUST cling to your "piles and piles of ammo" doctrine, a Weesatch with a 6-packer on top will give you 14 M4 mags, at least.) ETA: Put all your gear on with whatever you think you want to carry and go hike 5 or 6 miles. I think it'll be an eye-opener. |
Well in THAT case you'd be much better off asking this question at SOCNET or Lightfighter. |
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I guess I should make it less drag and high speed but I cant go less then 14 mags - 2 ar mags in the subload and 12 on the front pockets doesnt seem too bad. I can drop by butt/back pack and extra mag pouch. I welcome your input as I learn more and more. Any SF guys want to chime in? |
thats because when they get into a fight the really unload the ammo being in a small team of 5 or 6 guys you need all the ammo you can carry that was my point if you have a small number of people you need more ammo if your in a platoon you may not need so much ammo |
When working with a weapon that doles out bullets in rates of fire that measure in hundreds-of-rounds-per-minute... 800 rounds isn't that much really. Still, the rule of thumb is 80 lbs for every 100 rounds carried. Your SEAL friend musta been huge, or part mule. |
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All NFA rules apply, unless SHTF EOTWAWKI "I believe the Seals when doing recon or search and destroy carry loads of ammo for quick attack with a quick retreat. I want a vest that allows me to dump 100s of rounds down range quickly to cover my retreat. IMHO 300rds of ammo isnt enough. You can go through that in minutes." You present some sound principles. Your emphasis on carrying ammo is well thought out if you can handle the weight. Personally I wouldn't want a Dolly Parton front heavy chest pouch like a WAS Watch or any other chest rig. I'm hoping a full vest will work out for me. Cheap or possibly best solution for you, keep the current DOAV you have now, if additional mags are needed wear a USGI Alice suspender/web belt setup with any number of USGI 30rd mag pouches over your DOAV. Depending on the size of your waist, you could probably fit at least 12 USGI 30 round mag pouches around the largest size belt for an additional 1080 rounds available in 36 mags at your finger tips. These USGI Alice suspender-web belt setups are so cheap that you could have several, each loaded to a different quantity of mag pouches that you can carry and kept at various storage locations. Grab what you need and suppress the hell out of the enemy. Use and exhaust this supply of mags first. Separate your mag vest from your armored vest. Have a separate stand alone body armor vest. Allows you more flexibility than an all in one plate carrier-ammo chest-vest pouch combo. Your current non-molle DOAV is fine. The 4 main mag pockets on this vest are much better than those on the STRIKE AK/M4 pouches and not really worth replacing given the expense and return. If you want to utilize more of the dead space on the sides, rear and front shoulders, and can tolerate the huge expense, then look into the Blackhawk STRIKE Omega/Omega Elite, STRIKE Float or STRIKE DOAV molle vest as your Line 2 gear to be worn over your stand alone Body Armor vest. The newer STRIKE Omega Elite vest allows you to ditch the vest fast with one pull, while the others require you to click at least 2 fasteners, zipper if used. Each side of the 3 panel vest has 8 PALS loops lengthwise of mounting space in the newer vests, older ones had just 6. With the gear setup I've provided, you can tone up or tone down the weight to suit your needs. Still under development, but here is just one setup you wished for that allows you to dump 100s of rounds: You must wear in this order. Stand on a scale, now start putting on the following while noting the weight: Line 1: Belt with Suspenders loaded as follows: Double pistol mag pouch, Double pistol mag pouch, Pistol in holster, Blade, crumpled up Dump pouch, Canteen, Butt pack, E&E pouch, Spec Ops Brand X-2 type mag pouch: 2 x mags of Subsonic 5.56mm Gas mask pouch Blower pouch Special Ops Brand X-2 type mag pouch: 2 x 5.56mm mags Special Ops Brand X-2 type mag pouch: 2 x 5.56mm mags 1 x 5.56mm suppressor Line 1.5: Belt with Suspenders loaded as follows right to left: SMG in Drop Leg Panel with suppressor crumpled up dump pouch High Speed Gear (HSGI) double AK mag pouch drop leg rig: 8 x 9mm SMG mags inside, 2 x 9mm SMG mags outside Line 2: STRIKE Molle DOAV or STRIKE Omega Elite or STRIKE Omega or STRIKE Float Vest loaded as follows: Rear Panel: Side by side: Strike Hydration Pouch, Strike Hydration Pouch On top of STRIKE Hydration pouches: Top Row: STRIKE M4 Double mag pouch: 4 x 5.56mm mags STRIKE M4 Double mag pouch: 4 x 5.56mm mags Middle Row: STRIKE M4 Double mag pouch: 4 x 5.56mm mags STRIKE M4 Double mag pouch: 4 x 5.56mm mags Bottom Row: STRIKE M4 Double upsidedown mag pouch: 4 x 5.56mm mags STRIKE M4 Double upsidedown mag pouch: 4 x 5.56mm mags Far Left side of STRIKE Hydration Carrier: Samurai Sword #1 with Handle up, Samurai Sword #2 with Handle down Far Right side of STRIKE Hydration Carrier: Samurai Sword #4 with Handle up, Samurai Sword #5 with Handle down You may replace 3 of the Samurai swords with spare barrels if you have or will liberate a LMG/SAW like a HK23E, AUG LMG, SHRIKE etc Left Panel: Top Row: Communications STRIKE M4 Double mag pouch or Double Radio Pouch Bottom Row: STRIKE M4/AK Double mag pouch: 6 x 5.56mm mags STRIKE M4/AK Double mag pouch: 6 x 5.56mm mags Right Panel: Top Row: STRIKE M4 Double mag pouch: 4 x 5.56mm Subsonic mags Bottom Row: STRIKE M4/AK Double mag pouch: 6 x 5.56mm mags STRIKE M4/AK Double mag pouch: 6 x 5.56mm mags Attached to Right side vest connection straps: 1 x 5.56 suppressor with pouch crumpled up dump pouch crumpled up dump pouch Inside Left and Right Panels: Appropriate number of chem lights, pop flair's, sugar pops or just plain pops, top secret maps of nearest bordellos Velcro name patches and badges assorted to suit mission need, E&E and disguises: ALIAS CIA UNCLE 24 SRT CTU CSU IRS JTF WTF AGENT FEDUP BATFE BATF ATF DOD PBS ABC NEWS CBS NEWS NBC NEWS UBL AL QUEDA IMAM NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MTV UCF USO Insignia: One Star, Two Star (appropriate face paint, dark tones) Line 2.1 (optional) Additional Shoulder holstered Pistol (optional) with double pistol mag pouch Line 2.5: Assault: Over your Blackhawk vest you can wear USGI Alice suspenders with a USGI Pistol belt or go with the Blackhawk etc. versions that don't use metal fasteners. To the belt attach at least Four Beta C-Mag mags in padded pouches. This Alice setup is intended for your fire hose suppression busting through defenses winning the fight for fire supramacy needs when you want to maintain a steady stream of lead. Can be kept in a storage bag until needed in tight situations where you don't want the down time associated with low capacity 30-40+ round mags. But they may be prone to breakage. If you have or will liberate a belt feed LMG/Carbine, you can substitute the Beta C-Mags for Linked ammo or SAW packs. USGI Web belt with Alice Suspenders or STRIKE LBE or Blackhawk LBE suspenders with web belt holding Drums or belted ammo if you have or will liberate a LMG/SAW that takes linked ammo like HK23E, FN Para Minimi, etc. Padded Beta C-Mag pouch 1 x 100 round drum Padded Beta C-Mag pouch 1 x 100 round drum crumpled up dump pouch Padded Beta C-Mag Pouch 1 x 100 round drum Padded Beta C-mag pouch 1 x 100 round drum Line 3 Backpack BOB: Similar to what others have listed on Survival Forum. Contents vary to suit taste, same as below but lighter Line 4: BOB Bag: Similar to what others have listed on Survival Forum. Shoulder Bag/Back pack combo: contents below vary to suit taste but include these additions: Moral: Mini Lap top cpu with DVD burner 2 x spare Lap top batteries 1 x Solar charger 1 x 25 pack blank DVDs 10 set DVD collection Pamela Anderson XXX 1 x DVD Paris Hilton XXX 1 x DVD "The Longest Day" 1 x DVD "Chato's Land" 1 x DVD "To Hell and Back" 1 x DVD "Hell in the Pacific" 1 x DVD "Enter the Dragon" 1 x DVD "A Bridge Too Far" 1 x DVD "Hell is for Heroes" 1 x DVD "Two figures in a Lanscape" 1 x DVD "Planet of the Apes" ALIAS DVD Collection Season 1, 2, 3, 4 1 x DVD "Escape from New York" 1 x Digital camcorder 1 x cam corder spare battery 6 x cam corder tapes Assorted cpu/camcorder connections Weapon selection: Although this part is appropriate on the Survival Forum section, let me just briefly say that perhaps you should reevaluate what weapons you're going to need if your tactics are to focus on high firepower hit and run tactics. You'll need a weapons platform capable of winning the battle for fire supramacy during initial contact. If you are able to utilize mags and/or linked ammo, this will help determine an appropriate vest. My view is that you'll need at least a mini SAW type carbine/LMG with multiple spare suppressors and barrels. What is the best possible weapons platform? #1 What weapon can go Kaboom in your face and cause less injury and enhance survivability by way of it's design, contain the KB safely, compared to other weapons? That's my pick, whatever it is. Say you fire 2-3 Beta C-Mags in quick aimed short bursts repetitively, which weapon will last the longest without the gas tube, barrel, etc. melting? SIG, Steyr, FN? You specified a need for suppressive fire, so preferably you'll want the most reliable durable lightweight 5.56 with quick change barrels that is modular. #2 Of the weapons that fulfill criteria #1, which ones have quick change barrels? Which ones are modular? Which ones will you be able to or want to aquire through hook or crook during EOTWAWKI? This may limit your choices to at least Steyr AUG's in standard or preferably open bolt LMG configurations or maybe that ultra compact FN Minimi Mod O whatever SEAL version, but this smallest version does not accept mags so you may want the FN Minimi Para version to utilize mags as well as belts. Other LMG belt feds you may wish to consider are HK21/23 with spare barrels. Anything else that's reputable and possible to get for or during SHTF- EOTWAWKI use? Do you want to carry what you believe to be the best with spares to last you a lifetime and not worry about field pickup spares, or what you think you'll come across in the field? Suppressors: At least 2 complete spare. Assume at most durable ones will last 300 rounds of short 2-3 round bursts while other models are less. Depending on your 5.56 suppressors, one or two complete spare suppressors may fit in each Blackhawk AK/M4 mag pocket. So you can keep one pocket empty of 3 mags and in that space stuff it with Two complete spare suppressors. Or better you can carry the spare suppressors in dedicated pouches in other locations. They burn out after all and melt don't they, with all the shooting you're going to do. Spare Carbine/LMG. In case your main Carbine SAW/LMG breaks down, melts or is put out of action by a well placed shot from an enemy anti-material rifle, you'll have a spare. How many complete spare LMGs/Carbines can or should you carry? The lightest one's weigh around 3 KG empty each. Carry at least 2 spare because as the saying goes 1 carbine/LMG is none, 2 is 1 and 3 is 2 and so on. Spare quick change barrels as needed. At least one, preferably more, differing sizes. 14"-24" light to heavy Barrels? What weapons have quick change barrels and durability that can fire the quantity of ammo you plan to fire, carry and resupply through liberation? To give you an idea a 16"HBAR may last up to 300 rounds fired at constant 2-3 round bursts until the gas tube burns, etc. Keep the Gas Mask with spare filters and blowers. If you're cornered somewhere and don't want to breath through a urine infested bandanna or your underwear to block out gas, you'll need a way to counter Tear Gas, etc. Good ear protection. Outside and inside ear? Eye protection. M203 launcher type with HEAT rounds, assorted specialized rifle grenades to deal with APCs. Specialized anti Air rounds or devices to deal with low flying aircraft and black helicopters. Train yourself to cope with concussion grenades, flash bangs. H20 syndrome. A few deaths occur from Exhaustion, carrying too much maybe, over exertion. More about that later. But how many KIA's happened in Iraq so far from drowning? A few. Looks like most of the world is water, even in the desert. You may wish to also consider Tactical Float Vests, add on floatation devices or the STRIKE Float vest in addition to mini surf boards, whatever helps you swim. Insure you have the necessary buoyancy to remain afloat with ease while still being able to operate. Put on your equipment and jump into a stream, lake, pool or other water obstacle. Maybe jump off a small bridge, speed boat, rubber pump up dingy. Go up in one of those beach side parachute rides pulled by a speed boat and disconnect the line so you drop into the water. Walk through coastal areas into the waves. Go on a 1/2 mile run. Get on a surf board and swim another 1/2 mile. Come ashore real low key like a crab. Walk real slow for another 1/2 mile. Now jog. Engage some targets. Dive for cover. Repeat. Try under various terrain under differing climatic/seasonal conditions. Can you predict when SHTF or EOTWAWKI will happen? To replicate this uncertainty in training, try mobilizing immediately under different situations. Example of true SHTF, say you're seated on a toilet, mid way through your dump after a long night out on the town of eating lots of tacos, enchiladas, burritos, chili burgers, Wolfgang Puck Beverly Hills salmon topping pizzas, KFC extra crispy chicken skins, watermelons and partying, contemplating your next hot date, the alarm sounds? No time to even grab TP wipes, think of what's behind you as a natural brown camouflage color, it's time to grab the gear that you should have already been wearing maybe. A situation where it's just you by your lonesome in a true SHTF BO situation. All you have is what's on you or manage to liberate from others, such as, Evil Dictatorship Govt/LE/Mil/SWAT Forces who are your most likely opponents, MZB's, etc. You're right in recognizing a need for more ammo, you carry far too little. Just figure, if you hit center mass on all of your enemy targets and they have state of the art Level IV++ multi hit plates. How many rounds are needed to whittle down and punch through each armored vest center mass with say M855 or SS-109? 10 rounds? More? Maybe another 10 or 20 rounds will be used to work your way to or through target armor, missed, used for suppressive panic creation purposes. In casual shooting, look at each mag as 1 enemy KIA at best. Reaching and penetrating the target can't be overemphasized in importance, everything else is secondary. Now what if they also have shields, wheeled protective armored wall sections, APC's, Air, etc.? You'll win by your ability to hose the targets creating surprise, panic and casualties, the more you hose, the lighter you become. They'll be fumbling and tripping over themselves in panic trying to hide like the CA Hollywood Bank shoot out while you're moving, assaulting and maintaining the initiative. You're 100% correct. Key is having lots of ammo so you can assault and bust through enemy positions, creating hell and panic. You can't throw a useless tent, foul snatch smelling tuna packs, stove, MRE's, TP rolls or other cosmetics at the enemy. 8 mags does not have the stamina to create the hell and panic you're looking for busting through enemy. Targets may appear blurry or briefly in this confusion, there may be no time to aim proper shot placement, you'll need to have ammo on hand to literally hose areas rapidly while on the move. Mad Minute: Move in complete circles at times like a fine choreographed Nutcracker ballet taking into consideration the direction of the wind and utilizing the Earth's rotational forces to your advantage hosing down everything around you whenever in doubt and keep moving. In EOTWAWKI all that matters is you. Are you a lone actor individual, one man army, Rambo First Blood or part of a group? What might work for a SEAL Team that has the support of the most powerful nation on earth so far or Hollywood Special effects may not work for you having no support except what you carry or can liberate like Rambo. Maybe SEALs can execute an effective "Center Field" maneuver like you mentioned seeing in that documentary, even affording the risk of abusing a replaceable weapon. Maybe you can't afford to do so. Maybe with only 8 mags you carry far too little of what you really might need to confront and overcome the repetitive true SHTF situations you envision. It's also important not to possess a defeatist mentality. Even if 20000+ rounds are fired, you're still on top destroying the hell out of them only to melt away until the next ambush or strike. How many rounds can you fire safely in a strike or ambush and still have time to melt away if you have not eliminated them entirely? 20000? 300? 30? It boils down to what you, not someone else, can carry while remaining potent, effective and healthy. This is not a complete list, it's just a light weight thumbnail sketch. Work in progress. I still have to watch some more films and surf some more to see what SEALs or others use or have access to that might suit my couch potato needs. Four bits of advice I picked up, #1 Don't get caught behind the times, #2 with your pants down, #3 from behind #4 with too little ammo like just 8 mags YMMV HTH |
You forgot artillery. At least a damn mortar. No mines either. Every truly tactical vest now needs a trailer hitch and accompanying trailer or howitzer in digital camo or ninja black. Don't forget the Surefire and ACOG or EoTech for the howitzer. |
Perhaps this thread belongs on the Survival forum, maybe make a request for it to be transferred there. With what you have now, wear it and stand in front of a mirror. Now wear an extra XXXL T shirt whatever over it. Now wear a XXXXXL rain coat. Look down, around you, is anything bulging (don't look at the XXX DVD's mentioned in Line 4)? See, you still appear bulky, the thigh rigs are not very concealable. The DOAV looks like Dolly Parton whoever. Get rid of everything. Depending on your view, perhaps in a SHTF situation you'll need to outwardly appear as low key as possible to blend in. If that is desired, consider the following Covert Under Cover setup that will carry the same exact 500 round load you have presently. It helps to have some AGENT, ATF, DEA, INS, ICE whatever tags and badges to aid in your cover during SHTF EOTWAWKI whatever. Wear this first, HSLD suspenders etc. with good web belt. Attach pistol with new belt holster, pistol mags, and one Blackhawk item SKU 52DM22BK double M16 20rd mag pouch like this http://www.blackhawkindustries.com/product_detail.asp?product_id=2505&d= Over this wear the Paraclete Briefcase Vest http://www.lightfighter.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1309 You'll need to acquire the armor components separately. Over this wear another set of HSLD suspenders etc with good web belt. Look for some good quality single stack M16 mag pouches. You might even find side by side versions, even better. Attach single stack M16 mag pouches all around belt. 6-5 on your left, 6-5 on your right and 4 on your rear. The rear ones may be placed upside-down for ease of extraction. Adjust everything so you can access pistol etc. whatever to suit tastes. Now just get a few XXXXXL sports jersey's of whatever ball game teams, T-Shirts, University Texas A&M whatever. Wear one Jersey over your setup go in front of your mirror. Make sure you wear the mag pouch belts just below the Paraclete vest line so you don't appear bulky and everything flows into one. Make necessary adjustments until everything appears well concealed with no bulges. Now you'll need a good heavy duty large sports/gym shoulder bag whatever that's appropriate. Throw your carbine into this so it's easily accessible. Also place your gas mask and a few other essentials into this bag. Keep it light, wear it on the front of your body like you just came out of the gym or whatever. Also get an appropriate sports backpack, you can throw your hydration into this and some other items you deem essential. This concludes your covert operative Summer Weight gear selection. In colder weather, you simply throw on a Rain Coat and sling your carbine if desired, and keep a spare in your gym bag, whatever. Here you can also wear a business suit, casual or whatever made by whoever. |
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