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Posted: 8/13/2003 8:48:50 AM EDT
Hi,

I am not really looking to get body armor, but saw this:Body Armor

It may be too good of a deal to pass up.

Or is it too good to be true?

What do you guys think?

Link Posted: 8/13/2003 8:57:28 AM EDT
I thought level II was the second highest you can go in concealable body armor?
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 9:14:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2003 9:15:53 AM EDT by Vector_Joe]
Level III and IV are non concealable and/or Plates that are added to a lower level vest.

Also to condider is the price (which is what brought my attention) I would never get a vest for $300-400 unless I really thought my work or environment required it (I'm a physicist who sits a computer all day). However, for $150, I could almost just get one to have.

I don't know, I can't think of too many cases where the bad guys are using .44 magnums or +p+ 9mm.

I was under the impression that some departments only issue level II.

Like I said, I don't know... probably won't get one anyway.
Link Posted: 8/13/2003 1:31:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 308wood:


i would look at a III-A or III vest.




Never heard of a Threat Level III VEST.....Level III-A is the highest threat level you can go in a VEST, weather it's an under or outter garment vest....Once you get into Level III and IV you are getting into armor plates, not vests.

Link Posted: 8/13/2003 2:52:19 PM EDT
If that is all you can or want to afford GO FOR IT.
That's a great price and (USMC03 is right about the ratings)level II is better than level 0(no vest at all).
If I wasn't set up I would buy two at that price.


BulletcatchR
Link Posted: 8/18/2003 5:33:17 PM EDT
I dont know of any officers using level IIIA armor in the South. II gives you all the protection you could need in most any scenario. Level IIIA is WAY too hot and bulky making it so uncomfortable many officers wont wear it and so that civilians cant conceal it.

Get III in external armor but never get IIIA in a concealable if you can help it. There has never been a case of an officer shooting in the US where the level of vest was the determining factor in whether someone lived or died. The II will allow you to get to the hospital with a less serious wound should Dirty Harry shoot you. The IIIA will get left in the trunk and then you will wish you had the II when the time comes.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 10:41:37 AM EDT
I would have to disagree with you DevL. I've been wearing IIIA for the last 7 years including the 110 degree summers we have here in southern Colorado.

The newer generation of body armor are not as bulky as the older vests. A level IIIA provides extra protection and is only slightly thicker than Level II.

There are many guys on my Dept that wear a Level IIIA vest daily on Patrol and other duties.



Link Posted: 8/19/2003 11:42:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:
I would have to disagree with you DevL. I've been wearing IIIA for the last 7 years including the 110 degree summers we have here in southern Colorado.

The newer generation of body armor are not as bulky as the older vests. A level IIIA provides extra protection and is only slightly thicker than Level II.

There are many guys on my Dept that wear a Level IIIA vest daily on Patrol and other duties.




You are correct IIIA vests do get used everyday by many people. However level II gives up a little protection for much better comfort.

Also, a vest should be a "wrap-around", so there is no gaps between the panel edges.

I had a teribble level IIIA that I replaced with a level II, much much better. Initially I used to wear it with 2 soft trauma packs in front. Thne I got a ceramic plate, $100, the size of a shock-plate/trauma pack. My level II with a real ceramic plate, is still more comfortable than my former, level IIIA, without any shock-plate/trauma pack.

Level III-IV vests have balistic panels, and hard plates. The hard plates don't cover some areas so the ballistic panels have to.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 4:18:09 PM EDT
Every officer in Houston has level II I have ever met. Also are these ultra thin IIIA vest Kevlar or are the Twaron or Spectra? Are you arare of the problems with heat and humidity non kevlar vests are known to have? They cease to retain their ballistic properties over time and can be rendered useless in as little as one exposure to hot water.
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 7:23:28 AM EDT
DevL,

Take into account that the Level II is what the Houston PD may be supplying their officer. In some Depts you just wear what you are issued, other places you wear what you choose to buy.

Yes I know about the problem with Spectra and other products. My vest is a Level IIIA Kevlar vest, in fact just took it off after an early morning SWAT raid ;-)



Link Posted: 8/20/2003 7:48:44 AM EDT
Just throwing my name in the hat to reference later.
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 8:06:52 AM EDT
Ok so apparently Spectra is bad.
Zyloflex/Zylon, is suspect.

But what about these materials:

Aramid
Twaron
and others
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 1:17:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By USMC03:
DevL,

Take into account that the Level II is what the Houston PD may be supplying their officer. In some Depts you just wear what you are issued, other places you wear what you choose to buy.

Yes I know about the problem with Spectra and other products. My vest is a Level IIIA Kevlar vest, in fact just took it off after an early morning SWAT raid ;-)






Just to chime in: Most departments in the DFW area issue level III A. Yes we sweat the same up here. So the Dept's issue the vest's every three years on a rotating cycle. USMC 03 is correct in his post's on this thread. Although I am not sure about Houston, I think 90% of the other departments that issue body armor would be IIIA Reason: simple, reduced liability of they loose an officer.

c sends, out
Link Posted: 8/29/2003 7:36:12 PM EDT
Recruit Killer,


Thanks for chiming in Brother (BTW I that's a damn cool screen name "Recruit Killer"). You've just got to love the internet. It always seems like the guy that have never "been there, done that" is always the guy that are most vocal and always want to argue with those of us who do this stuff for a living.

*Disclaimer*
Not trying to be a prick, just stating facts. I come to this board and others like it in search of knowledge and pass along the knowledge I have if it is needed by another member. But it seems here recently that I spend most of my time sifting through the disinformation and BS to get to the good info. As the old saying goes, it's better to not say a thing and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 5:27:47 AM EDT
O3,

If they only knew what an O3 was, not just from "hearing", but knowing! I have to agree that the info provided and opinions posted by USMCO3, are accurate! If anyone actually does this for a living and is engaged in this discussion, prior to my post here, feel free to explain your "great thoughts" on level II and why you would choose it over IIIA if you had a choice. Did not think so! Light weight an issue too? My Extreme Armor by American Body Armor is the lightest vest I have EVER worn, and it has twice the protection previously available. IIIA! Can't beat it...

Instead of acting high and mighty, O3 and I are simply speaking from real time / life experience. So with all due respect DevL, your friends opinions voiced by you on a subject you have limited knowledge about, and focussed from "discussions", you should stay quite because the wrong info on a subject like this will get people hurt. Not hurt by people like me who just disagree with you, but by people like you who think they know everything.

If someone heeds your advice and thinks they are protected and comfortable because a guy on a board with no real experience told them so, how would you feel if they got hurt because of your bad advice?

done "chiming in",

c out

c
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 10:50:50 AM EDT
It is my understanding that no officer has died wearing level II armor where level IIIA would have saved his life. If this is not accurate please inform me. I know more than one officer who has admitted to me he did not wear his vest on more than one occasion because it was too hot. My view on the subject is its better to wear something than to not wear anything. Just like a .32 in my pocket is better than a .45 at home. A level IIIA vest has over 50% more layers than a level II vest and thus it is always going to be hotter and thicker.

Also as far as my opinion not being valid, how many times have you been shot personally? How many times has the fact you wear a level IIIA vest saved your life where a level II would have gotten you killed? ALL our knowledge is from other people on this subject as very few of us have personal experience with being shot. As far as how hot body armor is and how bulky it is, yes thats still an opinion. It is hotter in Houston than Dallas. One of my friends in HPD who does not have the luxury of air conditioning (he rides a bicycle, yes we all laugh at him) does not want level IIIA either. To ignore the heat issues is a mistake. I DO NOT think I know everything. The original poster wanted to know if he should purchase level II armor for "civilian" concealed use. In that role its perfectly fine and its more likely to be worn than a level IIIA vest if heat is an issue to you. Its more concealable, costs less and just makes more sense from a civilian perspective.

I also advocate carrying a concealed carry pistol smaller than 9mm at times. I suppose you could say this could get people killed too. I just know from experience that I quit carrying a Kahr K9 because it was too big and needed a true pocket pistol so that I would carry every day, even in hot weather where I cant conceal as well. We are all entitled to our opinions. I never should have stated some of the things I did as factual statements rather than opinions and should have posed it as more of a reminder to consider things like heat, concealability, etc. and for that I appologise.
Link Posted: 8/30/2003 12:27:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/31/2003 6:42:50 AM EDT
Bradley, YOU Ignorant Slut

Hope all is well brotha! Call me at home, I am teaching a class in Tenn in a couple months. It is getting set up now.

Devl, as far as me being shot! ZERO! Friends capped in my presence in the military in front of me and seeing the aftermath first hand, some could have been avoided. Some were not friends as well, and those I could care less. Opinion on this I agree, until shot, it is mute. But as far as lugging that thing around daily sweatin my ass off, plenty of experience.

The armor issues boils down to this! Gun are a very big concern even when wearing the best, lightest, and breathable armor, but level IIIA has more protection against small projectiles
(22 - 25) and sharp points than vests (other than filled with steel plates)ever were and others cannot come close. As far as patrol vrs civilian use, if you are in a situation where bullets "may" fly, why chance a II when you can get a IIIA. Last comment and I am done! IIIA Armor that is available today is about the same in breathing and even lighter than ever. The heat sucks anywhere you are and bike patrol sucks harder, but one thing is guaranteed, 99% of all police contacts go to the ground. If I was going to worry that a shank could be present, I would just go to the most available comfortable protection I could find.

I never said anything about steal plates wrapped around my body Bad Brad so I still cannot compete with the biggest baddest "lightFighter" out there!

Take care all,

c sends and out!
Link Posted: 9/6/2003 8:46:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I also advocate carrying a concealed carry pistol smaller than 9mm at times. I suppose you could say this could get people killed too. I just know from experience that I quit carrying a Kahr K9 because it was too big and needed a true pocket pistol so that I would carry every day, even in hot weather where I cant conceal as well. We are all entitled to our opinions. I never should have stated some of the things I did as factual statements rather than opinions and should have posed it as more of a reminder to consider things like heat, concealability, etc. and for that I appologise.



Hmmm... what about the PM9? I'm thinking of replacing my S&W Titanium .38 with a micro Kahr, probably 9mm but possibly .40.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 4:39:00 AM EDT
When it came time to spend MY money on body armor to protect MY ass on the job, I had very few requirements. It had to be Kevlar, since all these new superfibers were pretty much unproven (and Zylon looks to be bad juju when mixed with heat and moisture). It had to stop pretty much any pistol round, including +p.

The decision to go with IIIa was pretty easy at that point.

Is it hot? Yes.
Do I wear it anyway? Yes.
Would I notice the difference between a II and a IIIa when wearing a suit and standing in the Texas sun in July? Doubtful, but I guess I'll never know.
Link Posted: 9/7/2003 6:48:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
When it came time to spend MY money on body armor to protect MY ass on the job, I had very few requirements. It had to be Kevlar, since all these new superfibers were pretty much unproven (and Zylon looks to be bad juju when mixed with heat and moisture). It had to stop pretty much any pistol round, including +p.

The decision to go with IIIa was pretty easy at that point.

Is it hot? Yes.
Do I wear it anyway? Yes.
Would I notice the difference between a II and a IIIa when wearing a suit and standing in the Texas sun in July? Doubtful, but I guess I'll never know.



Everyone is a comedian

You a funny man j22, that is why I think of you as a PRINCEEEE and right on target as usual...

c sends
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