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Posted: 9/10/2006 3:23:35 PM EDT
| What is the effective range of 00 Buck? |
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For my guns , I want all pellets in a 12" circle . That is what I consider Optimum Effective Range . Max effective range will be somewhat longer . For my 18" guns , an 870 and 1300 both with IC barrels shooting brand name reduced recoil 2.75" 9 pellet Buck , Opt range is 20-25 yards The Benelli M1S90 shoots best using full choke and 3" full power 12 pellet buck with the Opt range being 30-35 yards . At 50 yards , all of them will keep 70% of the pellets on a man sized target using Aimed COM shots , but you need to keep in mind that those flyer pellets will still do significant damage out to 100 yards or so . Again , this is for my guns , but it should give you a rough idea where to start . Then you need to test your own with enough diff ammo to find what's optimum for them . |
| I've killed deer running in front of dogs numerous times at 100+ yards! Every time was in a wide open filed or cut down. The most pellets I've every landed at that range was 13 unplated lead out of a 24" barrel at 110 yards! It took 5 shots of oo 3-1/2" buck to do this. On the other hand I have killed a deer with 1 pellet at 150. so it all depends on your idea of effective! I'm not real concerned with putting all of the pellets from the shot in the target, the more the better. I'm concerned with putting as many as it takes to stop/kill the target! If you can stop a deer running at full blast you will stop ANY man! Soped up or not! |
WOW......hen Sooo how many have you just wounded then? |
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The old "rule of thumb" was at least 3 pellets in a vital area, with 5 being much better. I have known a few...very few...documented 100+ yd. kills with Buck on deer and 50+ yd. on bumans, but 25-35 yd, is my personal limit under most circumstances. Of course, that is plenty considering that very few HD incidents ever take place at anywhere near those ranges. Buck is usually a - 25yd. proposition. ETA chrome1 is pretty much spot-on I think |
I bet the dogs you have left get real nervous and twitch alot when hunting season rolls around. 
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A standard load of 9 pellet 00 buckshot out of a cylinder bore has a max effective range of around 25 yrds. Special chokes and loads can push the range out 2+ times as far however (50yrds +). Now, buckshot CAN be very leathal past the max effective range, it only takes one pellet in the right spot to kill (There was an instance of a storeowner that shot two perps at 115 yrds with buckshot, and dropped them both! One 00 pellet hit the neck) but max effective range is what will reliably work everytime. |
Guy's a fool! Like most people unfamilar with the shotgun, they have no idea of what it's capable of, or how to properly use it.
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Pretty much what everyone has said.. ~25 yards to keep 90-100% of the shot on target. I would most likely switch to a slug at a little shorter range if I had the time.. Don't want stray shot hitting something it shouldn't.. (Not that I would be shooting with non-BG's in the background! But you know what I mean) Multiple lomg range shots to kill a deer is just FuKed up... Get close or get a rifle... |
Humm, sounds like a bunch of you have never done anything other than arm chaired interneted! YOu think you know what buck shot will do or won't do because somebody on the internet told you it would! Well, no I'm not irresponsible! When hunting with hounds the dogs do not trail a deer as though they are about to run the animal down, you should really stop showing your ignorance on the matter! They are usuall 2-3 min behind a deer. There is a group of gents surrounding woods, typically you want at least a 1k spread, you just keep shooting until the animal is down! So if the animal doesn't go down by my gun, my friend is down the woods to finish him or her off! Can you miss, sure you can, can you miss with a rifle, yes, so what is the difference! Some of you are getting way out of hand! Where I live #1 deer are a problem, #2 we can hunt longer and kill way more deer than any other state in the union, 2 years ago I killed 31 and everyone of them were taken completly leagally, and I was in no way in any violation of killing too many deer, the way it was done! Last but not least unlike mosy of you that own 2-3 guns and want to sit on here and debate how far you XXXsuper italian extra tubed mag carrying gun will shoot and what it will do on paper are full of it! I have no safe queens! Everything I have are shooters! That includes several registered 10k MG's! So I can't really afford to be recless and irresponsible! I'm very careful at what and how I do it, but shooting deer on the run is hardly irresponsible! YOu should try it sometime! |
Let me see if I can help make you all under stand this process. There is a 1K block of woods and fielsds surrounded by and inflaltrated by hunters. There are hounds running through out the hunt. You are in a wide open field no one or no houses any where near you for miles the field is probably a 150 acre field. Dogs are screaming and a deer comes out she is running towads a truck sitting in a wide open field and she turn you and your friend unload everything they have at her she is roughly 110 yards, give or take 5. If we miss there is another fellow sitting on the other side of the woods where she is going. She has to come out if we miss, how irresponsile is that? Some of you are chastising me when you shoot at a deer at 300yards in a cut corn field, with a rifle. That is irresponsible too me! Go look for a deer or any object in a cut corn field after dark! Tell me what looks the same, that is irresponsible! The hounds will flush the deer wounded or not and he or she will run and then be ridded of! |
yeah right, you're incredibly responsible! |
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Silentweapon does make good points. Buckshot IS leathal up to and INCLUDING 100 yards. You can shoot someone at 100 yrds with standard buck and a cylinder bore and kill them in one shot. All you need is one pellet to hit in the proper location. However, it may also take a few shots to achieve the same results. I have heard of other shotgun hunters that custom load 10 gauge and 12 gauge 3 1/2" shells with buckshot FOR engaging deer at 75-110 yrd ranges. And they DO know what they are doing, and they do often kill their deer with only one shot. It's all about the pattern and what your gun/load combo will do. Again, one pellet is very leathal out to and exceeding 100 yrds if it hits, and if you are in a riot or combat situation, one shot can easily hit multiple mansized targets at long ranges. Not only that, but it makes engaging targets much much faster than you could with any rifle as the margin of error at those distances is so much greater. Less precise required aiming and faster pointing leads to engaging targets quicker, which will keep you alive in a gunfight since you will get lead on him before he can to you. Remember, the origonal intent of this thread wasn't deer hunting with buckshot, but max effective range of buck against MEN. One should never underestimate the combat shotgun in a firefight, doing so will surely lead to ones demise.
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There are too many variables, what with shotgun, choke, and ammo choices. My personal 870 will put all 8 pellets of Winchester Ranger Reduced Recoil #00 in the scoring ring of a B27 at 35yds easily. However, the same gun, an 870 with a Cylinder bore 18" tuber, and GR sights, starts to drop pellets from Federal managed recoil at less than 20 yds. I have yet been able to try the Hornady TAP, but have heard great things. |
And how many have you wounded at these claimed distances. (What a load of crap...) |
I didn't claim to make a regualr habbit of shooting at these ranges, I said I had done it plenty of times, that was over multiple years! Have I missed sure. Have I missed alot more deer at shorter distances OH YEA! Most of you are commenting on this and you have no idea how hunting with hounds work, you obviously have never done it, and are speculating in your minds how you think it works. usually when hunting in swamp land and the thick cover of SC woods you don't often get a shot over 45yards and that is a long shot. Ocassionally you have the oppurtunity to have a chase over a rye field or a new cut down, both of which lend themselves to very long shots! Again as described in the post above me you asked about the leathality and the gent from NC told you what it can do too a human. This has happened several times down here unfortuanatly, also. It does matter where the buck shot hits. I have a couple of friends who skipped work and were walking a small head of woods and inclosing on it trying to man drive (Bad Idea, very bad if I might add) They were walking and not signaling each other as too their movements. A deer came from the brush and 1 fellow shot 5 times, the last 2shots were into a thicket or so he thought. He got the deer but he got my friend also, who was by the SCDNR's report along with the sheriffs office at least 80-85 yards through the pine thicket. Out of 2 3.5" shells he ended up with 2 pellets in his leg 2 in his chest 1in hs arm and 1 in his hand. None of these killed him. they put him in the hospital for a while but didn't kill him. However, the 2 in his chest were lodged in his chest, according to the Dr. had 1 of the pellets been about an 1" further down and he would have been dead! So my point in desribing this tradgedy was too point out even though it is leathal at further ranges the pellet has to hit something vital to kill! |
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Down in North Carolina they run deer with dogs. Every body is armed with shotguns loaded with #4 Buck. Thats just how it is done. It is legal and ethical in that area. I am from Ohio and made a passing comment about a salt block I set out in Ohio for deer season. The North Carolina hunters, using dogs and buckshot, were aghast at the thought of baiting. Different regions have different rules and customs. Wounded deer are found by the dogs and harvested. They aren't wasted like up here in Ohio where the dogs in the country drag in deer parts for weeks after deer gun season. |
31 deer in a year! Thats more deer hunting experience than most people get in a lifetime! Good job! |
Thankyou! I go alot we can hunt from Sep. 1st to Jan. 1. So you can see how it would be very easy to do that. I've been everyday but 4 so far this season. I've gotten 4 already! You can hunt from Aug 15th to Jan 1 if you use a bow. It's just to hot and I don't care for slinging sticks at a deer when I can through hot lead in another 15 days. When in a tree I use a suppressed .308, not a shotgun! I've actually been working on setting up an AR to do the job. I got my first AR kill the other evening, but I wasn't satisfied with the wound damage so I went back to the drawing board for now! Too all the nae sayers out there about killing anything at 100 yards, if you feel so strongly that this is BS Why don't you stand out in a wide open field at 100 yards and let someone shoot at you with 5 rounds of 3-1/2" OO buck. I bet not the first one of you would agree to do that would you??? No, and you would be a complete moron if you did! If you wouldn't do that ask yourself why don't you think it will kill an animal??? |
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the idea is NOT that buck shot is NOT leathal at 100+ yards, its just that its not RELIABLY leathal at that range, hell how many people die slipping in the shower every year? that makes a shower pretty lethal right? its just as much of an accidental death as getting hit with one pellet at 150+yards... how many get shot accidentaly with a shotgun every year, and survive?? the issue SOME of us are having trouble with, and this COULD be attributed to your location, is ETHICS. responsible hunting practices. everyone has their own ethics. if your willing to take a hail mary shot at a running animal with some small pellets, and hope for a critical hit, thats YOU. YOU are willing to take that chance. you are willing to wound an animal, and hope your buddy kills it with his hail mary shot. on the other side of the fence are others, who are just the OPPOSITE of you. good or bad. personally I hunt game animals with a bow, and have NEVER taken a shot over 18 yards. I dont get an animal every year, but I have NEVER wounded one or taken (what I feel to be) an irresponsible shot on any living animal. PERSONALLY I WONT take the chance, I would rather go home empty handed than lose a wounded animal. thats just me. my beliefes, my ethics. doesnt make me right or wrong. Im NOT trying to flame your post, just to get you to understand the other point of view that is coming at you. |
It IS reliable if you modify your weapon to perform that way. Out of 12-15 pellet 00 loads (nevermind the 18 pellet ones) it is not hard to use a patternmaster, wadwizard, vangcomp, or just plain improved modified to get VERY tight buckshot patterns that will put 4+pellets on a man sized target at 100+ yards. Even if the pellet doesn't hit something leathal, if the guy has a broken arm, hip, or leg and is bleeding, he isn't going to be in too much of a fighting condition, which tips the odds in your favor at the very LEAST. At the most he will be dead right there. And actually, shotguns have the HIGHEST leathality rate of ANY gun out there on man. |
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BUCKSHOT 101, by Dave McCracken During the English Civil War in the 1600s, Cromwell's Arquebusiers used "Divers Small Schotte or Pistole Balles" in their matchlocks for close quarters battle, as well as a single large projectile of near bore diameter. They won. Later, during our own Civil War, "Buck and Ball" loads in old muskets helped give places like Bloody Lane at Antietam their names. Earlier use of multiple pellet loads is probable, the effect of multiple hits has remained a constant since gunpowder was invented. Nowadays, if you have a shotgun you plan on using to defend yourself, family and community, it's probably best charged with buckshot. These days, large shot used for hunting medium game and for defense are called buckshot. A primary use in America was hunting deer. Writers like Archibald Rutledge, Nash Buckingham etc, wrote exciting stories about thick cover deer hunting with shotguns and large shot. Currently in the US, Buck runs from about .23 caliber for 4 buck to .36 caliber or so for 0000. The most common used is 00. Double Ought is .33 caliber and starts off at 9 pellets in a 12 gauge shell and going up to 15 in 3 1/2" magnums. For the record, 15 pellets in the real world do little more than 9. Can you say, "Overkill", Boys and Girls? Some reduced recoil loads use just 8 pellets of 00. And, I've experimented with ultralight 6 pellet 00 loads. These last work just as well for inside the house. The reduced recoil stuff patterns tightly in most cases, a good thing. 1 buck is a quite useful size also, and the biggest size available for the 16 gauge. Some 20 gauge ammo is loaded with 2 buck, but 3 buck is more widely marketed and used. Some 410 buck loads are out there, with 2 or 3 00 pellets in them, but these are not very effective and usually pattern terribly. Still, most buck used now is 00 and used in 12 gauge shotguns. It's quite effective for close quarters defense in almost any conditions. 1 buck retains almost as much mass (needed for penetration) and has a higher pellet count, but 00 sells 10 times faster. Tradition and track record account for that, in my opinion. Testing has indicated that 1 buck may be where the lines for penetration and pellet count cross on the graph. Most deptartments and agencies use 00, but the FBI used and still may use 4 buck, which they tested and decided on in the 50s. I believe their concern was with overpenetration, always something to think of. Buck is also used in deer hunting, oft with dogs and in thick cover. It has little use for game much larger than whitetails. Wild hog hunters learned a long time ago that slugs beat buck all hollow on stuff weighing more than 300 lbs and inclined to bite back. African Pro hunters often used SSG Buck(Similar to 000) for wounded leopards and such, but not for lion. Some Southern deer hunters have worked up custom handloads of hard buck that pushed the envelope on distance limits and knockdown power, sometimes using 10 gauges and buffered loads carefully worked up to maximize effect. Still, 50 yards is about the max distance buck should be used under any circumstances, and 25 is more realistic for most conditions and opportunities. Like other pellet loads, patterning is crucial. I can double or halve pattern size in one 870 here just by swapping loads. While what works well in one shotgun often does well in others, vagaries are common and we HAVE to know what our load of choice will do under real world conditions in our shotguns. As I've often written before, a home defense load is best patterned at the longest possible shot opportunity in your house plus one yard as well as at 25 yards or so. Look for a spread of less than 15", the average width of the human torso at center mass. As for what size, that's your choice, but 00 is hardly ever a bad idea..... Dave McCracken has been shotgunning longer than many shooters have been alive. He regularly posts on TheHighRoad.org and TheFiringLine.com. |
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From the Remington web site: What deer loads do you recommend for shotgun hunting? Question What deer loads do you recommend for shotgun hunting? Answer SITUATION: Shotgun Hunting Many large deer populations exist in areas where civilization and the countryside intersect. For obvious safety reasons, most populated rural areas where deer are hunted require that firearm hunters use shotguns instead of rifles. In some areas, shotgun hunting is even the traditional and preferred way to bag a deer. Habitat usually consists of small wooded tracts with most shots taken at close range (around 50 yards) with some shots both closer or occasionally longer. RECOMMENDED BARRELS: Fully Rifled: The Remington Premier Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded Sabot Slugs is the ultimate in shotgun sabot slugs. The Remington Premier Copper Solid Sabot Slugs offer 2x caliber expansion and virtually 100% weight retention. The Remington Buckhammer is a high performance lead slug that's very affordable. Smooth Bore: Remington Slugger Rifled Slugs (with Improved Cylinder choke tube) Remington Express Buckshot (with Full choke tube) Remington Premier Nickel-Plated Buckshot (with Full choke tube) RECOMMENDED LOADS: Remington Slugger Rifled Slugs: A very popular (and economical) choice among shotgun deer hunters, Remington Slugger Rifled Slugs deliver outstanding accuracy at short ranges with hard-hitting, reliable expansion. Also, available in Slugger Managed Recoil Rifled Slug. Remington Premier Copper Solid Sabot Slugs: Designed for use in fully rifled shotgun barrels, Remington Premier Copper Solid Sabot Slugs are ideal for longer shots. Each solid-copper slug is encased in a high-performance plastic sabot that greatly enhances in-flight performance and, thus, accuracy. Upon impact, they reliably expand to 2-X caliber with virtually 100% weight retention. OTHER POPULAR LOADS: Remington Express Buckshot: Delivers concentrated, balanced patterns. Ideal at very short distances ranging from 25 yards and closer. Premier HeviShot Buckshot: Remington Premier Nickel-Plated Buckshot: Extra-hard, nickel-plated shot provides deep penetration with dense, evenly balanced patterns that are 25% tighter than those of normal buckshot. |
not at 100+ yards. please. gimme a break. *EDIT BTW very interesting info in that post Mike103 thanks. |
Oh, please. I'm very familar with Dave McCracken, and he is a legend in his own mind. He knows a fair bit, but has got a LOT wrong, as this post demonstrates. IE, saying that 0000 buck is .36 caliber (it's .38), saying that there are 15 00 pellets in a 3.5" load (there are 18). Not to mention when he says a 15 pellet 00 load has very little real difference compared to a 9. Small errors like that go to demonstrate how much knowledge he actually lacks. He is not really all that familar with buckshot because he has never been a buckshot hunter, and as such knows very little about it. Just because some guy has handeled a shotgun in a limited capacity for much of his life, doesn't make him some grand master expert on it. People who use buckshot often, like our fellow buckshot hunter that has been posting here, really know a lot more about buckshot and its capabilities than some guy who doesn't use it to hunt at all in favor of slugs. Another big problem with Dave is that he is very anti progress. If Dave was in charge and had the same view about rifles as he does for shotguns, then our military would still be using 5 shot bolt action springfields! IE, he doesn't consider any shotgun other than a standard rack grade pump to be worth a hoot and tells others to not even consider them or "bother with them". A 5 shot wood stocked beedsighted shotgun is the only shotgun one should EVER need or use according to him, forget bringing up things like knoxx stock, ghost ring sights, side saddles, etc. Don't even consider talking about things like the saiga-12!!! Guy's hardly worth consideration. |
That is quite an assinine suggestion. If you don't think your comments above are imbecilic, then why don't you sit in a lawn chair and let a couple guys through bricks at you from 20 yards? I guess if you don't want to do that we should start hunting deer with bricks then? |
you sum it all up yourself right here, "MAX EFFECTIVE RANGE IS WHAT WILL RELIABLEY WORK EVERYTIME"
not "MAX EFFECTIVE RANGE IS WHAT MAY BE A LUCKY HIT" and btw, the very least is a complete miss. you know the whole bit with mostly round non spinning projectile and a smooth bore. *EDIT twice, one for italics and second for color comentary... |
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From the remington web site: OTHER POPULAR LOADS: Remington Express Buckshot: Delivers concentrated, balanced patterns. Ideal at very short distances ranging from 25 yards and closer. From the Federal Ammunition web site: Buckshot Sizes No. 000 .36 No. 00 .33 No. 0 .32 No. 1 .30 No. 2 .27 No. 3 .25 No. 4 .24 Remington, Winchester and Federal 12 gauge 3 1/2" 00 buck loads all have 18 pellets. |
Like I said, CYLINDER bore shotguns and standard lead 9 pellet 00 is 25 yrds. Then, like I said, you can have choke and ammo combos that extend the max effective range far beyond that. |
Yes you are right, with everything tweaked just right you may be able to almost double that (50 yds), which for buckshot is "far beyond" 25 yds. You guys advocating 100 yd buckshot, do you understand what buckshot is? Anyone shooting at deer with buckshot at 100 yds is the poster child for irresponsible hunting conduct. Sure, you may kill a couple doing this, but you'll wound many more, have no control of your ammo, and you aren't "hunting", you are just out shooting at animals. I'll shoot a deer at 100 yds with a shotgun, but with a slug and after I've spent alot of time at the range understanding how it performs at that range and upon choosing my shot. |
BINGO! |
In this part of NC we bait deer all year long. |
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