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Posted: 12/20/2005 7:27:43 PM EDT
does anyone know anything about square shot? how much more rapidly does the pattern expand compared to normal round buckshot? would this be a good choice in a HD situation?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:08:23 PM EDT
When stacked they form a cylinder shape so they fit into a wad cup. The idea is that the 90 degree angles cut through light body armor. Its expensive and good for shit at long ranges as it is lighter than lead or tungson.


Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:21:37 PM EDT
any article or anything on this stuff?
also is there any place online you can buy it?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:31:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nyeoj:
When stacked they form a cylinder shape so they fit into a wad cup. The idea is that the 90 degree angles cut through light body armor. Its expensive and good for shit at long ranges as it is lighter than lead or tungson.





From where do you get this information?
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 9:45:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 9:54:34 PM EDT by dfariswheel]
There was also the traditional Sicilian lupara load.
They used large lead pellets which they filed into a pyramid-shape, then stacked these into the case.

This was because they believed it did more damage.
Occasionally, they soaked the shot with garlic juice in the belief that it would cause blood poisoning.

Truth is, nothing works as well a standard round buckshot.

One other factor to figure in: Have a "good" shooting with buckshot and no one gets concerned.
Shoot someone with some non-standard load like square shot and people start wondering about things.
Once they start wondering, they start digging to see if things are as they appear to be, and if they look hard enough, they just might decide something isn't kosher and charge you with something.

It doesn't matter if you've done nothing wrong, it's just that police, prosecutors, and shot people's lawyers don't like it when odd-ball weapons or ammo get used, and they will often use it against you.

When standard politically correct buckshot is used, that's OK. Use some Rambo load, especially when you don't need to and you're a fool.

After shooting someone, the LAST thing you want is to be sitting in a courtroom explaining about your trick load, and noticing that everyone is looking at you like you're wearing a KKK sheet.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 2:33:30 AM EDT
For more info on cubic shot, you might want to contact these people if your interested.

Cubic Shot Shell Company
98 Fatima Dr., Campbell, OH 44405
(330) 755-0349
Contact: Marilyn Terlecki or
Thomas E. Terlecki
Available in 20, 16 and 12 ga.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:39:43 AM EDT
I remember a link somewhere regarding special shotgun ammo like this and will post as soon as I found it...i remember sharp edged shotgun ammo, fletchets, and odd shaped slugs like a huge dart

in red below also it would be good for close quarter vampire killing




Originally Posted By dfariswheel:
There was also the traditional Sicilian lupara load.
They used large lead pellets which they filed into a pyramid-shape, then stacked these into the case.

This was because they believed it did more damage.
Occasionally, they soaked the shot with garlic juice in the belief that it would cause blood poisoning.

Truth is, nothing works as well a standard round buckshot.

One other factor to figure in: Have a "good" shooting with buckshot and no one gets concerned.
Shoot someone with some non-standard load like square shot and people start wondering about things.
Once they start wondering, they start digging to see if things are as they appear to be, and if they look hard enough, they just might decide something isn't kosher and charge you with something.

It doesn't matter if you've done nothing wrong, it's just that police, prosecutors, and shot people's lawyers don't like it when odd-ball weapons or ammo get used, and they will often use it against you.

When standard politically correct buckshot is used, that's OK. Use some Rambo load, especially when you don't need to and you're a fool.

After shooting someone, the LAST thing you want is to be sitting in a courtroom explaining about your trick load, and noticing that everyone is looking at you like you're wearing a KKK sheet.

Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:08:41 PM EDT
gee, i wasn't thinking that it would be more deadly, i was just thinking along the lines of having a larger pattern spread for a higher hit probability at close range.

any other methods to make the shot pattern more spread out? i think i once heard something about using "divider loads" which somehow separate and push apart the shot pellets as the gun is fired.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 12:44:16 PM EDT
You didn't indicate what type of shotgun you're using... The shot pattern is affected by the length of the shotgun's barrel, the choke type, the brand of shell you're using in that particular shotgun, and the shell/shot type itself.

As a rule of thumb, the shorter the shotgun's barrel, the larger the pattern it will produce at any given range. The barrel length combined with the choke are probably the most significant factors in the patterning. A shotgun without a choke (i.e. full cylinder) or an improved cylinder choke are the usual combination for a defensive shotgun, and work well with the usual range of buckshot as well as slugs.

The design of an individual shell is another factor - the shot cup, or wad design and the shell's powder load are a factor in patterning.

Higher shot velocity as the load exits the barrel will produce a tighter pattern for a given barrel length, choke type and range.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:06:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:24:57 PM EDT
i'm thinking an 18" barrel with a full cylinder. and i'm wondering what the specific shell would be that would give the widest possible buckshot pattern.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:27:44 PM EDT
An open cylinder is going to be the best for bigger patterns.

You have the right idea.
These days all the discussion is about how tight you can get patterns, never realizing that in a true home defense gun, you don't want tight patterns.

The best shells for more open patterns are going to be shells with NO enclosing shot cups or anything else holding the shot together.

Most modern buckshot loads use buffering material and plastic cups or "collars" that surround the shot to prevent it from contacting the bore.
This helps give tighter patterns.

I'd look for cheaper ammo without the buffering or plastic protection.

There are (or used to be) "spreader loads" that had cardboard dividers separating the shot. When the shot exited the muzzle, the cardboard was arranged so that the air would cause the cardboard to scatter the shot.

I haven't seen any of this lately, and don't know where you'd get any.

If you want to hand load, you can get more open patterns by using tricks like slightly deforming or partially flattening the shot to make it LESS aerodynamic.

Load the shells with no shot cups or buffering material.

I haven't tried this so I can't guarantee the results, but you might try one of the rifled chokes sold for shooting slugs or even a rifled barrel.

Firing buckshot from a rifled shotgun barrel causes the shot to "swirl" as it exits, ands produces "blown" donut shaped patterns with holes in the middle.
While this is BAD for most shotgunning, it might be perfect for your purposes.

This will cause the barrel to lead badly, but it might work.

What gives tighter patterns are hard, perfectly round shot, buffering material, and plastic protection to keep the shot away from the bore.

Buying or making shells made the exact opposite will give bigger patterns.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:27:52 PM EDT
There's no straight-forward answer to that question "fossil_fuel"... patterning varies from weapon to weapon, even within the same make/model shotgun, and shell. You have to do the pattern work empirically to answer the question for your shotgun, at the ranges you expect to require it being effective.

The moderator's point is well-taken - you can make up for a short barrel with a tighter choke (i.e. tighten up the pattern)... if that's your intent.

For home defense, a broad/wide pattern is not necessarily the right answer. You still need to aim the shotgun accurately at your target, and not miss... A wider pattern may only result in more stray pellets of buckshot flying around your dwelling, without any real beneficial effect on increasing your chance of hitting, and most importantly stopping your target.

You want to strive for a good aim, a square hit on your target, and a dense, tight pattern to increase the effective stopping power on that target. The real reason for a short barrel is to increase the shotgun's utility in close quarters, not to increase the width of the pattern. Utility means ease of manuverability in hallways, doorways, and confined spaces, or getting in/out of a vehicle.

Purchase a variety of readily available shot shells in your locale, take the shotgun to the range, and pattern it against paper targets at ranges from 5 - 15 yards with each type of shell. That will tell you what the best load for your particular weapon is.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:20:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Papertargets:

Originally Posted By nyeoj:
When stacked they form a cylinder shape so they fit into a wad cup. The idea is that the 90 degree angles cut through light body armor. Its expensive and good for shit at long ranges as it is lighter than lead or tungson.





From where do you get this information?




The box it came in.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:38:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nyeoj:

Originally Posted By Papertargets:

Originally Posted By nyeoj:
When stacked they form a cylinder shape so they fit into a wad cup. The idea is that the 90 degree angles cut through light body armor. Its expensive and good for shit at long ranges as it is lighter than lead or tungson.





From where do you get this information?




The box it came in.



90 degree angles to defeat light body armor. If I cared about that, I'd lke to see if that were true, So I'd ask the boxoftruth.com to test that claim.

I don't believe being lighter than lead or tungsten makes it better for things at longer ranges.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 9:42:46 PM EDT
just outta curiosity..what about hand loading coins? Like dimes or nickels? Ive heard stories of old timers using coins or washers.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 10:21:58 PM EDT
It was dimes. Nickels are too large.

Fact is, no one I've ever talked to knows whether this is valid or an "urban myth", because I've never heard verifiable reports from anyone who's ever actually tried it.

Over the years a lot of people have mentioned it.
Once, Jeff Cooper wrote that he'd load a shotgun with dimes as a "down the hallway" load.

Supposedly, Vietnam Special Operations people like LRRP's, Rangers, SEALs and Special Forces loaded shells with dimes, and called it "Keep the change, Charley".
It was supposed to "cut through" jungle brush better than buckshot.

The ONE real test I saw was a year or so ago on the Discovery channel????? in a program about the "Real Billy the Kid".

In the show, they discussed whether Billy the Kid really shot Bob Olinger with his own shotgun, which was reported to be loaded with dimes.

In the show, they loaded up some shells with real silver dimes, and shot a side of beef covered with cloth.

Most of the dimes bounced off or only penetrated slightly.
Buckshot spectacularly blasted all the way through.

The sticking point: The gun used was a 10 gauge shotgun, NOT a 12 gauge.
Dimes are a tight fit in a cylinder bore 12 gauge, but are much too small to seal a 10 gauge bore.

So, the question is, did the dimes fail to perform because they didn't properly seal the bore, and the gas escaped around the column of dimes, or do dimes really not work?

What's needed is some experimenter to try some silver dimes in a 12 gauge shotgun.

Until then, I'd have to put the dime story in the urban myth category, and say NOT to use them.

Whatever, the same statement I made above holds true: You don't want to put yourself in the position of finding yourself sitting in a courtroom full of people, explaining your having shot someone with your "trick load", and having them all looking at you like your some kind of unique insect.

NOTHING works as well a standard buckshot, or is as politically correct.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:11:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 2:14:14 AM EDT by nyeoj]

Originally Posted By Papertargets:

Originally Posted By nyeoj:

Originally Posted By Papertargets:

Originally Posted By nyeoj:
When stacked they form a cylinder shape so they fit into a wad cup. The idea is that the 90 degree angles cut through light body armor. Its expensive and good for shit at long ranges as it is lighter than lead or tungson.





From where do you get this information?




The box it came in.



90 degree angles to defeat light body armor. If I cared about that, I'd lke to see if that were true, So I'd ask the boxoftruth.com to test that claim.

I don't believe being lighter than lead or tungsten makes it better for things at longer ranges.



You are correct. The higher sectional density of lead and toungsten maintains more energy at longer ranges. My intention was to imply that it was not as good at long range as lead or tungsten. I believe it is an expensive solution to a non existant problem. I must have not been wearing my hat with the tinfoil liner when I was writing that last post.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:26:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:

...

You have the right idea.
These days all the discussion is about how tight you can get patterns, never realizing that in a true home defense gun, you don't want tight patterns.

...




For HD, why would I not want a tight pattern?

In an HD situation, in most dwellings the operational range to target is going to be somewhere in the 1 to 7 yard range. I seem to recall a rule of thumb that suggests a shot pattern will spread 1" per yard for full or improved cylinder chokes (I'm getting old and senile, so this could be wrong...) At 7-yards, say the distance from one end of a long hallway to the other, or across an average living room or den, you would expect about an 8" pattern - this agrees with most of the pattern testing I've done over the years.

In a square-on hit on the target, 7" - 8" puts all the shot into the target. In angle-on hits, using an average of 9" - 10" thickness of a human torso, there's still a chance that all or most of the shot will impact the target.

The nominal diameter of #00 buck is 0.33 (about .30 cal) with 15 pellets in a 3" magnum load. A wide pattern would seem to spread the delivered energy over a broader area, assuming the entire load was on target. Assuming a partial hit, the stray pellets from a wider pattern will not deliver their energy on target... a shot pattern significantly wider than the target at operating range does not increase the chance of a hit, but does increase the chance that stray pellets will go somewhere you don't intend.

I think what concerns me about pattern spread discussion for defensive shotgunning is the fallicy that shotguns, especially short barrel weapons offer some sort of "magic" that makes up for bad shooting. Many people operate under the myth that a sawed-off or short barrel shotgun does not require aiming... one just needs to point it in the vicinity of the target, and the magical broad swath of pellets will cut down the target. Only in Hollywood... the fact is, a shotgun must be properly aimed to be effective. Magical "spreader" loads, etc. won't make up for a poor aim on target. A shotgun should have good sights on it, for defensive purposes ghost-ring night sights are the best answer, along with practice and training in how to use the weapon.

Relying on "magic" or otherwise unorthodox loads will just create problems, many problems that range from not stopping your target, to unintended damage to your property or loved ones, to legal issues in court should one be in that unfortunate situation.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 12:50:04 PM EDT
The tight pattern craze seems to be more oriented to a true COMBAT shotgun that will be used in military or police actions.

I have people living in tiny apartments with very limited ranges who brag about how tight the pattern they're getting from their guns.
This MAY not be what's needed at extremely short ranges.
It possible and easy to flat out MISS with a tight patterning gun at short ranges.

True, the shotgun isn't what you see in the movies, where the gun gets pointed at a man standing 6 feet away, and the blast blows out 20 feet of plate glass window while still putting at least 50 pellets of 00 into the bad guy.

At very close ranges, you may want to get more open patterns to increase hit probability BUT still keep all pellets on target.
If the maximum range you can shoot will allow keeping all pellets in an 8 inch circle, there's really not much benefit to having a gun that shoots 4 inch patterns.
The larger pattern increases hit speed.

Guns with standard sights have to have the sights precisely aligned with each other then aligned very precisely on the target or you get no hits.

Unlike rifles and pistols, the shotgun CAN be a "pointed weapon" and still be effective.
You do not "aim" a shotgun with a bead sight, as much as you "point" it.
This DOESN'T mean you're doing so-called "instinctive" shooting like pistol shooters do
The shotgun is "pointed" by using the barrel itself as a "sight" with your eye the "rear sight", and this is how bird shooters do it.

In other words, given time you should take as precise an "aim" as possible, but at close range you can "point" the shotgun using the barrel as a sight.

This doesn't mean you're just "pointing" the gun in the general direction of the target and firing off a huge cloud of shot, most of which doesn't hit the target.

It means that you use one of the biggest advantages of the shotgun, and that's it's adaptability.
If you're shooting at very short range or very long, you can adapt the gun to give the best performance at THAT range, with patterns that offer the biggest pattern that will still keep all shot on target.
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