Posted: 2/11/2010 10:58:45 AM EDT
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Wow, it's been so long since I posted anything here, I had to re-register.
I don't intend this as a flame against Ed Brown, but I recently had a less than satisfactory experience with them that I think the community should be aware of. I’m an experienced shooter, primarily of 1911 style pistols. I’ve owned or extensively fired 1911s by Colt, Kimber, Springfield Armory, Les Baer, and Wilson Combat. In mid-August last year, I ordered a new Executive Target from Ed Brown, at a cost of a bit over $3000, including several custom features I asked for. I received the pistol in early November. The fit and finish of the all-stainless gun was amazing. The lines were clean, simple, and extremely precise, and the custom laser engraving had been executed exactly as I’d asked for it. It is a truly beautiful gun. There were a couple of very minor flaws that I won’t address here and which were easily remedied, but the one significant flaw was very noticeable trigger creep. I spoke and exchanged emails with my Ed Brown customer service representative, Justin, and he told me that trigger pull was a personal thing that would have to be addressed by a local gunsmith to tailor it to my tastes. I agreed that many aspects of trigger pull were a matter of personal preference (take-up, over-travel, pull weight), but that nobody preferred a trigger with creep. He finally told me to send the pistol back and they’d be happy to fix the problems. I sent it back, but when it was returned the trigger creep had not been addressed. I contacted Justin again and expressed my dissatisfaction that the trigger creep hadn’t been addressed. He told me that he hadn’t detected any trigger creep, and neither had one other person he’d consulted at Ed Brown. He told me again that I’d have to have the trigger pull addressed by a local gunsmith, that there was nothing Ed Brown could do. Now, you have to understand, I know what trigger creep feels like. I’ve spent my entire life shooting, especially 1911s. My main carry gun is a Wilson Tactical Super Grade, which like every other Wilson I’ve ever shot has a perfect, creep-free trigger. The trigger on my new Executive Target was bad. I mean, really bad. There was only a single “step” of creep, just before the sear released the hammer, but it was very, very noticeable and very distracting. Heck, my Kimbers, my Springfield, even the cheap airsoft 1911 I use for training new shooters in safe gun-handling had better triggers than my $3000+ Ed Brown. If the customer service representative at Ed Brown was unable to discern the creep, the fault was his. I can accept a less-than-stellar trigger on an out-of-the-box 1911, but I expect the trigger of a $3000+ semi-custom target-focused 1911, from a maker who advertises that they are “still the best money can buy,” to be free of discernible creep. That Ed Brown shipped a pistol with such a horrible trigger may be dismissed as a simple oversight; that their representative failed to adequately address the problem, or even to admit there was a problem, is inexcusable. I immediately contacted Wilson Combat and they instructed me to send the pistol to them for evaluation. I dealt with Nick, who was extremely helpful and professional. Once he received the pistol, he evaluated the trigger and immediately noticed a “great deal” of creep. It took Wilson a couple of months to do a trigger job and get the pistol back to me, because of backlog from the Shot show, but as always their work was top-notch. The trigger creep has been removed, and the trigger feels every bit as nice as that on my Wilson TSG. There is no reason Ed Brown couldn’t have done the same work on the trigger, without my having to pay a couple of hundred dollars to a third party. Wilson Combat isn’t local to me; they didn’t need to have me physically present in order to fix my trigger. Their representative was able to easily and immediately discern the trigger creep, while Ed Brown’s representative was not. I’m not going to suggest you avoid buying an Ed Brown pistol. In fact, I’m confident most of their pistols ship with excellent triggers. And their fit, finish, and overall quality are very high. It’s more likely that my pistol was the rare exception, and that the representative I dealt with at Ed Brown is atypical. |
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I ran into a situation like this awhile back where one of my friends said he felt creep in his trigger, I did not I thought it was almost near perfect, his dad with Parkinson's said he felt very little if any, my dad said the trigger was right on, my uncle said it had creep, and anyone else gave mixed opinions. So I messed with his pistol did some fine tuning not much if any and he said it went away. I think it comes down to what the user is use to. My triggers my friends hate them or love them one user may feel something different then another.
ETA I am not taking your side, Ed Brown, or Wilson I am just saying everyone feels something different likes their trigger a certain way. More power to you and I am glad your pistol is kickin ass and takin names!!!! Other then the trigger how do you like the Executive??? |
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I can feel trigger creep. My old Kimber has a little but it doesn't bother me because of what I paid for it. On a $2K gun, that trigger had better break like glass, and if I don't like it then the manufacturer should take care of me.
I have shot a couple Ed Brown pistols and they feel like butter and shoot like a dream but if you are an unhappy customer then they should have taken care of you. |
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Can you (or anyone else) explain to me exactly what your definition of "trigger creep" is? I have heard different people say different things on this topic. Likewise, what is the ultimate cause(s) of "trigger creep"? Thanks Pretravel - taking up the light slack in the trigger until you hit the sear, and then you get.... Creep - the amount of movement you can "feel" until the sear releases. You're feeling the sear nose slide across the hammer hooks until the release point. Creep is generally reduced by putting a secondary, or "relief" angle on the sear nose. This has the effect of reducing the amount of metal in contact with the hammer hooks, and also removes the sharp nose of the sear, which you don't want to feel dragging across the hooks. Creep can also be caused by a hook / sear interface that hasn't been properly polished. |
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Thanks for the info.
Don't you want a little bit of travel in any trigger though? I'm talking about for a defensive pistol of course. I guess my Kimber CDP 5" must have a fair amount of "creep" in the sear then. I'll have to go over these parts in my recently purchased Kuhnhausen manual. |
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Thanks for the info. Don't you want a little bit of travel in any trigger though? I'm talking about for a defensive pistol of course. Pre-travel? Of course. But when you've made the decision to pull the trigger, you don't want to feel an interminable, rough crunch right before the shot breaks. On a 1911 trigger, once the pretravel is out, I want to feel pressure build up, then snap. Like the proverbial glass rod breaking. |
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Thanks for the info. Don't you want a little bit of travel in any trigger though? I'm talking about for a defensive pistol of course. Pre-travel? Of course. But when you've made the decision to pull the trigger, you don't want to feel an interminable, rough crunch right before the shot breaks. On a 1911 trigger, once the pretravel is out, I want to feel pressure build up, then snap. Like the proverbial glass rod breaking. One of the hallmarks of the 1911 and the reason many choose them over alternatives is their triggers. Why compromise? |
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Dabbisch - did you have to pay the shipping back to Ed Brown? Thanks I have been Brown shopping pretty heavily lately. I saw that they don't pay shipping for service work, even warranty. I live close to the Brown operation so I could drop the gun off personally, but that's neither here nor there. $3k for a handgun that is anything less than perfect it unacceptable IMO. Unbelievable. |
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Dabbisch - did you have to pay the shipping back to Ed Brown? Thanks I have been Brown shopping pretty heavily lately. I saw that they don't pay shipping for service work, even warranty. I live close to the Brown operation so I could drop the gun off personally, but that's neither here nor there. $3k for a handgun that is anything less than perfect it unacceptable IMO. Unbelievable. This is not accurate. Brown warranties the GUN for life, if there ever a problem related to materials and workmanship they will fix it. Their stated policy (paraphrased) is that you ship it in on your dime for evaluation, if it needs to be repaired under warranty they ship it back on their dime, and usually they comp your shipping to them after the fact. I am a authorized Brown dealer and know the policy well. |
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Sorry for the delay in replying; I'm on leave now in the People's Demokratic Republic of Kalifornia. Hey, my wife's family's here, and they're wonderful people, so I'll grit my teeth and put up with it.
Creep is any perceptible movement of the trigger that occurs AFTER the initial take-up, but prior to the sear releasing the hammer (i.e. prior to the shot breaking), as the trigger is being "loaded" (pressure is being slowly applied). In severe cases, it can have several "steps," as the trigger moves slightly, then stops, then continues moving as more pressure is applied, then stops, etc. It's sometimes described as a "gritty" feel. It is more discernible if you load the trigger slowly, as when competing in NRA Bullseye competition or making that 25-yard headshot on the full-color "hostage" target. It is less perceptible when loading the trigger quickly. The Ed Brown had only a single "step" of creep, but it was quite noticeable. After initial take-up, I'd slowly load the trigger, and after I'd applied perhaps three pounds of the required 3.5 or so pounds, it would suddenly move to the rear and then stop until I applied the last half a pound or so to drop the hammer. I didn't measure these values with a trigger gauge, but by my experience they're pretty close. A trigger that has no creep will of course move during initial take-up, but after resistance is felt and you start loading the trigger and "getting in the zone" for that precision long shot, the trigger won't budge at all until the shot breaks. Like a glass rod, as the saying goes. Like I said, I accept some degree of creep in a mass-produced pistol. But in a $3000 gun that's advertised as having a "crisp 3.5-4 pound" trigger? No. In a high-end gun that's intended solely a defensive pistol and will never be asked to perform as a precision target pistol? Possibly. But the Ed Brown Executive Target has the word "Target" in its designation, and it doubles as a defensive pistol and to show off with to my shooting buddies. It should be free of perceptible creep. I paid for shipping back to Ed Brown, but through them; they arranged the shipping label and billed my credit card. I believe they paid shipping back to me. Of course, I also had to pay Wilson for shipping and for the trigger work itself, but is was money well spent. I really do hope this was an anomoly. Ed Brown has a very good reputation among most shooters, and I relied on that reputation when I placed my order. Perhaps this was a one-in-a-million bum trigger, and perhaps I just got the one customer service rep who was unable or unwilling to help me, or perhaps Justin was just having a bad day. I'm not prepared to demonize an entire company after a single bad experience. And besides, it really is a beautiful pistol in every other way. Now that the trigger's fixed, I've fallen back in love with it. Later, gents! |
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You are not the first to complain about Ed Brown. Ed Brown needs to get off their high horse and take care of their customers. Sure their guns are great when they are working right but their attitude is that they dont build bad shit. Wilson Combat does indeed take care of their customers and potential customers.
I paid $2600 for a Springfield Professional FBI 1911 that had some issues after firing 186 rounds of Federal hardball ammunition. The Wilson Combat Ambidextrous safety started to wobble a lot on the right side of the gun- i.e. left hand thumb lever. Talked to Dave Williams the Master Gunsmith at Springfield's Custom Shop. He said it was normal to have that and it cannot be cured. I emailed Wilson Combat for their advice on this matter. John LaRue wrote me back the same day after they were about to close. He said that they will wobble but only through high mileage in the many thousands of rounds and not just 186 rounds- that to him was a fitting problem. He recommended the Wilson Combat Bulletproof Ambidextrous safety- the new one they have out is less likely to break from usage or get loose and wobble. How you tell is the new ambi does not have a lever that slides under the grip on the right side of the frame. Anyways I called Dave Williams back and he said that he does not work on guns personally- if he told me he did then he would be lying. So the Master gunsmith does not work on guns, but has one guy repair only the government guns from the FBI and the civilian CRG prefix guns. I was told I would be given a single sided safety and have the Wilson Combat one returned to me as a spare. My slide finish - Black T actually wiped off when I used Tetra Oil to clean the gun after initial firing. Dave believes the finish was painted on too thinly by Walter Birdsong's company and actually burned off and when I cleaned it using oil it wiped off the carbon and showed the shiny metal around the muzzle. My front sight did not sit flush after firing- he said it was normal and I said it should be flush and not lop sided- one side of the dovetail was flush and the other side was sticking up on the slide. On a $2600 gun this is not acceptable. Frame was too sharp and he would dull it down a tad for me. Both frame and slide would then be finished in Armory Kote instead of Black T because it would take over 10 weeks to do by Walter Birdsong. All the rumors of the late Walter Birdsong's company seem to be true....after he passed his family is running it into the ground by doing shoddy work. The top part of my slide had pock marks all over- was told by Dave that this was lint on the slide when someone at Birdsong painted over it with the Black T finish. Sure Armory Kote isnt as bad ass as Black T but it is more durable. Given what I have seen...I dont trust the people there applying the finish again to my gun so that is why I opted for Armory Kote where it would be done in house at Springfield. Was told it is a little more durable than Black T where Black T is very corrosion resistant and high in lubricity and that is why the government specified it. All my internal parts are still coated in Black T so we shall see. The best thing about my gun is the trigger...it breaks like glass around 3.5 lbs. Zero creep. Ed Brown does make a few great weapons, but given what I have heard from owners and even my personal friend who is an FFL - I am going to avoid them. Wilson Combat has my business when I am ready to order a CQB Elite. Springfield Custom Shop paid for shipping in and will pay for shipping back. Good thing is the extra modifications they are doing for me is free. One more thing is...some dumb ass there shipped a bunch of these FBI guns out with 5 Metalform FBI model mags instead of 6. I was one of them so they will be sending me my missing mag. Hopefully I will get my gun back soon. I waited 13 months. 3 months of which was when I thought I was on the waiting list but Deb forgot to add me to the list. Found out 3 months later and they added me back. Deb is the Custom Shop manager. I had some trouble with her not returning any of my calls 3 weeks before Shot Show and now a month after Shot Show. I had to use regular Springfield Armory Customer Service reps to handle my situation even though they have separate telephone lines for both departments. I wrote a letter demanding them to return my calls and address my problems. Within two days of them receiving my gun I received a call from the Master Gunsmith. So to the original poster...I feel your pain. It was a bitch to get someone to give me some service and fix my gun. Glad you got the trigger creep fixed. How much did it set you back? In addition to your $3000.00 that is... |
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Wow Esq118, you freely admit that you do not own a Brown, you have never used Brown's service and have zero experience in dealing with them.
You do however have second and third hand information from others, and worse yet the interwebby. We all know everything on the interwebby is true. I on the other hand deal with Brown almost on a daily basis, have contact with them 3 to 4 times a week, week in and week out. Know the people who work there, know their polices and know how and what to expect. I clearly posted above what their policy is, evidently that is not what you call customer service. Well you have convinced me, my world is now turned upside down now, everything I knew was a lie. This crap gets old, somebody heard from somebody who knew a guy who said Ed didn't hold his hand and give him the warm fuzzy. Most of the time when this crap comes up, somebody had an issue, then got an attitude and does not approach getting the problem fixed in a profesional manner. What I know of Brown is he does not suffer fools, he a no bullshit kind of guy. If a person first response to an issue is to jump on the forums and bitch and complain, and then call and give Brown an ear full before even giving them a chance to fix it, well what do you expect. IMHO |
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Wow Esq1118, sounds like you had some bad experiences with your Springfield. I hope everything was finally worked out? My brother-in-law is considering their TRP with rail.
Trumpet, I don't blame you for being suspicious of what appears to be a first post, when that post is negative about a well respected business. There's no way for you to know if I'm legit; for all you know, I may be a pimply-faced 14-year-old whose only experience with guns is through video games. Or I may be a WIlson employee, trying to smear a competitor. Or just a guy who doesn't really have much experience with 1911s and doesn't know the difference between a good trigger and a bad trigger. I admire skepticism and the application of critical thinking. This wasn't actually my first post, by a long shot. I used to post on this forum quite frequently, but it had been so long since I'd done so that my account had been disabled and I had to create a new account. I post somewhat more frequently on m1911.org (as Responsibly Armed), but still not all that often, and I used to post on club1911.com when it was more active. I seldom feel strongly enough about an issue to post. Still, I've been shooting for 39 years, and I own far too many guns. I currently own only three 1911 pistols, but I previously owned and sold or traded away many more. I know the 1911 like the back of my hand. We should all be careful of either demonizing a company after a single bad experience, but we should also be wary of blind loyalty to a company when it extends to disregarding any negative information about them. I understand Jeb deals with Ed Brown regularly, and I have no doubt his experience with them is mostly or even entirely positive. I don't doubt that Ed Brown is an up-front good guy. But the fact remains that the trigger on the pistol they sold me *was* flawed, their customer service representative *did* dismiss my concern, and Wilson *did* correct the flaw when Ed Brown would not. Any complex mechnical device is subject to imperfections, regardless of how much care the maker takes in ensuring top quality. I understand that. But when substantial problems are encountered, the maker should address them. Certainly some customers have unrealistic expectations and complain about insignificant details they perceive as flaws. But most any experienced shooter understands what trigger creep is, and knows when a trigger is excellent, good, bad, or terrible. Ed Brown's sterling reputation doesn't invalidate my concern or earn them a free pass. I'm not going to accept their awful trigger just because they have a solid reputation for excellence. If they produced 999,999 flawless pistols out of a million, and their customer service was excellent 999,999 times out of a million, that's still no reason for me to accept a flawed pistol or poor customer service if I'm the one in a million exception. Anyway, I spent this past weekend putting ammo through my Wilson-corrected Ed Brown Executive Target, and I'm very, very happy with it now. Aesthetically, it's absolutely stunning. It's dead-on accurate, and so far 100% reliable even with cheap PMC practice ammo. Enjoy, all, and keep on shooting! |
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Wow Esq1118, sounds like you had some bad experiences with your Springfield. I hope everything was finally worked out? My brother-in-law is considering their TRP with rail. Trumpet, I don't blame you for being suspicious of what appears to be a first post, when that post is negative about a well respected business. There's no way for you to know if I'm legit; for all you know, I may be a pimply-faced 14-year-old whose only experience with guns is through video games. Or I may be a WIlson employee, trying to smear a competitor. Or just a guy who doesn't really have much experience with 1911s and doesn't know the difference between a good trigger and a bad trigger. I admire skepticism and the application of critical thinking. This wasn't actually my first post, by a long shot. I used to post on this forum quite frequently, but it had been so long since I'd done so that my account had been disabled and I had to create a new account. I post somewhat more frequently on m1911.org (as Responsibly Armed), but still not all that often, and I used to post on club1911.com when it was more active. I seldom feel strongly enough about an issue to post. Still, I've been shooting for 39 years, and I own far too many guns. I currently own only three 1911 pistols, but I previously owned and sold or traded away many more. I know the 1911 like the back of my hand. We should all be careful of either demonizing a company after a single bad experience, but we should also be wary of blind loyalty to a company when it extends to disregarding any negative information about them. I understand Jeb deals with Ed Brown regularly, and I have no doubt his experience with them is mostly or even entirely positive. I don't doubt that Ed Brown is an up-front good guy. But the fact remains that the trigger on the pistol they sold me *was* flawed, their customer service representative *did* dismiss my concern, and Wilson *did* correct the flaw when Ed Brown would not. Any complex mechnical device is subject to imperfections, regardless of how much care the maker takes in ensuring top quality. I understand that. But when substantial problems are encountered, the maker should address them. Certainly some customers have unrealistic expectations and complain about insignificant details they perceive as flaws. But most any experienced shooter understands what trigger creep is, and knows when a trigger is excellent, good, bad, or terrible. Ed Brown's sterling reputation doesn't invalidate my concern or earn them a free pass. I'm not going to accept their awful trigger just because they have a solid reputation for excellence. If they produced 999,999 flawless pistols out of a million, and their customer service was excellent 999,999 times out of a million, that's still no reason for me to accept a flawed pistol or poor customer service if I'm the one in a million exception. Anyway, I spent this past weekend putting ammo through my Wilson-corrected Ed Brown Executive Target, and I'm very, very happy with it now. Aesthetically, it's absolutely stunning. It's dead-on accurate, and so far 100% reliable even with cheap PMC practice ammo. Enjoy, all, and keep on shooting! Well, you writing is too good for a 14 y.o. 
Welcome. 
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| I've had a similar experience with a custom pistolsmith who everyone else seems to love. He made the problem right, but for 4K plus there shouldn't be any issues to begin with. Right now I sticking with my Colt, but when I decide to shell out big money again for a 1911, it will be with Wilson Combat, I've never heard of any problem that they didn't or wouldn't fix right away at no charge. |
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And here's the pictures of my newest 1911. They may have shipped it with a bum trigger, but they did a great job on the custom laser engraving. Ain't she a beaut? G10 grips by Mil-Tac. Serial number digitally erased, of course. Enjoy!
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/williamdwaddell/My%20New%20Ed%20Brown%20Executive%20Target/My_Ed_Brown_Executive_Target_LSide_.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/williamdwaddell/My%20New%20Ed%20Brown%20Executive%20Target/My_Ed_Brown_Executive_Target_Engrav.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/williamdwaddell/My%20New%20Ed%20Brown%20Executive%20Target/My_Ed_Brown_Executive_Target_RSide_.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz338/williamdwaddell/My%20New%20Ed%20Brown%20Executive%20Target/My_Ed_Brown_Executive_Target_Rear_S.jpg |
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I think it comes down to this. You said you were not happy and that the trigger had creep. You convinced them to bring it in to have a look. After that it was sent back to you and Justin admits they did nothing to it because he and another person judged no creep.
Whether it's a 3k 1911 or a top notch restaurant. You weren't happy. End of story. Once they agreed to look at it, it should have at a minimum gone in front of a smith to have the hammer/sear checked and polished. Then been sent back to you once the trigger had been reworked and judged correct by a smith. Then if you still weren't happy maybe it's about you not the pistol. But that isn't what they did from the sound of things... |
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On a 1911 trigger, once the pretravel is out, I want to feel pressure build up, then snap. Like the proverbial glass rod breaking. BINGO! Take up the slack, add pressure, SNAP! I don't think you should really "feel the snap" that would probably mean you had excessive over-travel which would be bad. With minimal overtravel the hammer should fall and pressure should be transferred to the trigger stop almost without you feeling anything. That way the force you are imparting to the trigger is constant through the firing cycle. |
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Trigger Creep: A guy who licks his trigger after using it.
Sorry, my attempt to lighten things up. I recently went on the wild side, picking up 3 revolvers 2 S&W and I Ruger Redhawk, in .41 Rem mag and .357. Now if you want to feel a gun without trigger creep, try a decent revolver. I prefer "cheap" serviceable 1911's and have picked up a few so I know what trigger creep is, well since you guys explained it. But now I know. My most expensive 1911 is a $800 Colt stainless 80, certainly not in the same class as you guys, but it always goes bang. If you want to feel a sweet trigger, try a decent revolver. Sorry, I will be back full time to my 1911 45acp's Roots as soon as I find one more nice .357 stainless. Here Kitty, Kitty, Kitty. Just dreaming now; for $3,000 I could have at least 5-6 more nice pistols and I love to shop for the rascals. Here Pussy, I have cash! |
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My Brown came with a trigger you'd only find one a hand built big name gunsmiths work for some reason. On the other hand, my Baers trigger basically sucked out of the box but somewhere after tons of dryfire and range time it became a very acceptable trigger. Hard to tell but sometimes they need broken in and oddly the best trigger Ive ever felt on a production 1911 was a Colt Factory Racer. I dont know how it could have functioned but in the shop. There was no feel of takeup or overtravel. It didnt seem to move whatsoever, just pressure and snap. It was awesome feeling but I dont think it was normal, and I never got to fire it. But if they somehow got it to function oh Lord the owner of that one would be spoiled for life. |
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Man, I'll try to avoid falling into that definition of trigger creep! :)
I appreciate a good revolver, too. I currently own only three revolvers, though; a very old (circa 1920s) beat-up S&W M&P (what eventually became the Model 10) .38 that belonged to my grandfather and, later, to my father; a Ruger SP101 with the longer 3.06" barrel and Hogue monogrips; and a US Firearms Custer Battlefield Gun (a replica Cavalry-model Peacemaker circa 1873 in .45 LC). And you're right, a good revolver trigger feels nice in single-action mode. |