Posted: 10/13/2009 2:57:26 PM EDT
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I am a NRA Pistol instructor, but have allot of experience teaching and with firearms. I have a decent selection of firearms I use for illustrative purposes and for use by students on the range.
I was recently asked why I didn't have a 1911 in my collection and I have to admit I really don't know. I have shot them before, and must admit I like them, however my collection is mostly smaller handguns I used for concealed carry (I know realize it would be easy to carry a full sized 1911, but it has taken me awhile). Basically I was hoping to get your thoughts on a 1911 style handgun for this kind of use: I need something reliable (it will be cleaned regularly, but could see 500+ rounds in a day), needs to be durable (its a business investment, cost:life expectancy kind of thing), and finally cost is a factor. In summarry: Durable, reliable, cheap. I am not looking for a tack driver, nor do I need it to have allot of features, a model availible in stainless may be nice also. |
| Price range? In the cheaper category you could get the STI Spartan. Great gun for the price. You could get a Kimber Custom II $650ish. It would be my preference to spend around $900 and get something that has a few features, like the STI Trojan, Dan Wesson Pointman, Springfield MC Operator, something like that. |
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Quoted:
I am a NRA Pistol instructor, but have allot of experience teaching and with firearms. I have a decent selection of firearms I use for illustrative purposes and for use by students on the range. I was recently asked why I didn't have a 1911 in my collection and I have to admit I really don't know. I have shot them before, and must admit I like them, however my collection is mostly smaller handguns I used for concealed carry (I know realize it would be easy to carry a full sized 1911, but it has taken me awhile). Basically I was hoping to get your thoughts on a 1911 style handgun for this kind of use: I need something reliable (it will be cleaned regularly, but could see 500+ rounds in a day), needs to be durable (its a business investment, cost:life expectancy kind of thing), and finally cost is a factor. In summarry: Durable, reliable, cheap. I am not looking for a tack driver, nor do I need it to have allot of features, a model availible in stainless may be nice also. Cheap, and reliable? It can be doable but it depends on your definition of cheap.... A lot of guys with cheap 1911s find out how reliable their pieces really are after running 500+ rounds in a day. In that kind of volume, THAT'S where you find out: -cheap mags will have issues -quality parts are worth the cash -crappy parts can and will break down -a whole lot of production 1911s come with extractor problems out of the box, improper tuning, lack of tension, etc. -having a polished feed ramp is usually a good idea, buying a cheap gun without it and trying to do it yourself however 
change the geometry on that bad boy and "houston we a have a problem"! -maintain your gun For a novice user who is not mechanically inclined nor has good working knowledge of the platform, it is not a good idea to pick up a cheap production 1911 and expect greatness. An experienced 1911 user who can swap out parts for better ones- could pick up a cheaper example and troubleshoot/replace as necessary. You're an instructor, and you mentioned that you want to count on this thing, so truth be told, unless you're willing to kinda 'work with the gun' - the cheapest gun I'd trust my life to is probably about $1000. (springfield MC operator) And that's the low end. For the kind of rounds you're going to be shooting in so much as a weekend, I sincerely suggest you go for something good. A Dan Wesson Valor, colt special combat government, a gun from STI, a springfield TRP, used les baer thunder ranch special, used wilson CQB may be your ticket. But personally, in your shoes, I'd at the least get a new semi custom. Wilson CQB, les baer thunder ranch special, ed brown special forces, etc. Something like that. There's a reason that the high end 1911 market exists, and it's not by accident. You could search what some dub the 'errornet' and accidentally end up basing your knowledge on the words of people who run 100 rounds through their guns in a month and tout that gun's reliability. Once you're running hundreds of rounds a weekend, all that internet koolaid feel good "my gun costed me $500 and it's as reliable as a $2500 gun with tool steel parts that went through the hands of a great pistol smith  " huggy stuff goes right out the window. Guys like larry vickers and hilton yam will probably see more rounds go down range out of pistols than many who post here will see in their life times. Their opinions are not formed by accident: http://www.10-8performance.com/id2.html It's worth a read.
Stock up on tripp research mags, CMC powermags, and wilson mags. Watch the wilson mags at around the 5k mark, watch the feed lips and the springs. Don't listen to anyone who tells you that dirt cheap mags are fine. |
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I did leave out my price range, didn't i... I was thinking 500-900ish
My only issue with para is, I haven't heard the greatest things about cast guns. I am not a 1911 expert, but it does seem to me that a forged gun should have a longer life span. Of course it will be fed mostly cheap ball ammo, so its not like it needs to hold up to hot loads. Edit to address Foxnews: I maintain my firearms impeccably (often to the point of obsession according to people that have seen my clean my glock), I have built AR-15s from part kits, so I am not afraid to get my hands dirty, enjoy learning about firearms (which is one of the main reasons I teach, to continue learning) and I have no issues working on a gun. The 500rnd/day is a worst case scenario, since I am a solo instructor in most cases I don't allow class sizes over 10, typically try to keep it under 8. I expect failures and they are a good teaching tool as long as they don't lead to injury. I am relatively sure I could strip and reassembly a 1911 from memory given the amount of research I have been doing (perhaps even without an 'idiot scratch'... if I am lucky). |
| while it is only my opinion, I will say in modern firarms cast versus forged is almost a moot point these days. I work with about 10-15 ccw instructors here and almost universally the all have Basic Kimber Customs.. This may go against the grain, but readily available stock at local stores has helped. Most have passed through my hands for 200 RND EVAL before going to work. I have not had a chance to eval the Para, but will soon. Training is a large part of my future plans and you can bet I will have a large selection of all the basic 1911s. I have a RIA that has been very surprising in .38 super. Just some random thoughts........Chuck W |
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I would look at a Colt 1991 or something from SA. If going for Kimber, I'd only look for something in a Series I. For a high round count gun, it would be hard to beat a STI Trojan as well. In general, I'm of the thought that you're much better off buying something higher quality that's lightly used, rather than new crap (Para).
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=143008897 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=142837595 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=143135593 http://www.gunsamerica.com/976936478/Guns/Pistols/Kimber-of-America-Pistols/Kimber_Classic.htm |
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Cheap is a relative thing in their defense, but I did come back with a price range of 500-900.
With that in mind I am leaning towards a SA Mil-Spec, new ones in stainless are going for 500-600 by the looks of it, hell I could almost buy 2 for the cost of some of the other suggestions... sure its not the best suggested, and may need some work, but that is part of the fun of owning a 1911 isn't it? |
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Quoted:
Cheap is a relative thing in their defense, but I did come back with a price range of 500-900. With that in mind I am leaning towards a SA Mil-Spec, new ones in stainless are going for 500-600 by the looks of it, hell I could almost buy 2 for the cost of some of the other suggestions... sure its not the best suggested, and may need some work, but that is part of the fun of owning a 1911 isn't it? sure, milspecs are nice 
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Quoted:
Cheap is a relative thing in their defense, but I did come back with a price range of 500-900. With that in mind I am leaning towards a SA Mil-Spec, new ones in stainless are going for 500-600 by the looks of it, hell I could almost buy 2 for the cost of some of the other suggestions... sure its not the best suggested, and may need some work, but that is part of the fun of owning a 1911 isn't it? The mil-spec in SS is pretty cool, especially for the $550-$600 OTD price you can find them. That said, for your price range I'd also consider: Used Springfield TRP in SS User Kimber Warrior Used Springfield MC Operator Dan Wesson Pointman SS STI Trojan Colt Series 70 in SS You are right that the fun of a 1911 is messing with it, but messing with a 1911 can get expensive quick, and it's much cheaper to buy a gun that already has the feature you want stock. I'd definitely suggest the TRP and DW and the Colt. Also remember if your budget is $900 that a good holster runs minimum $70 and goes up to $200 easily. If you're like me you want at least 10 reliable magazines which can easily cost $25-$30 a piece. If the $900 represents your full budget I'd definitely recommend the SA mil-spec or the STI Spartan. |
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If you're using it for work, you can write it off. A year from now, your tax rate will be at least 50 percent.
If you are looking at $900 guns, add 50 percent; that puts you at $1350. That puts you at TRP Operator. OR add 100 percent, since you will be taking 50 percent off the higher number when you deduct it–– that puts you at $1800–– Wilson, Nighthawk. Net cost of $900 to you. Good luck explaining that to your spouse–– but it works mathematically. . . . . . |
Look for a gently used Colt, Dan Wesson, or S&W. I cannot tell you that any of them can run perfect through 500 rounds in a day but I can tell you mine can run through 250 in a day with no issues. I will admit that I rarely put more than 100 through any of them in one day. Taking more than one toy to the range at a time limits the round count per session.
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Couple decades ago I shot competition in the LEO circle with a Colt Combat Elite. City/Department sponsor. Was a Tac Team member and went to a lot of schools with that gun. Ended up having to sell my gun collection because of a divorace. Never replaced that particular weapon, but I'd look there again.
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I don't really intend to use this for carry, just something to used to demonstrations and some range use by students.
I generally encourage students to bring their own, but since a revolver and a semi-auto are required I can't expect everyone taking the class to have both. So honestly, given the class sizes are rarely over 8 people it is unlikely to see 500rnds in a day, but there is the possibility |
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Quoted:
I don't really intend to use this for carry, just something to used to demonstrations and some range use by students. I generally encourage students to bring their own, but since a revolver and a semi-auto are required I can't expect everyone taking the class to have both. So honestly, given the class sizes are rarely over 8 people it is unlikely to see 500rnds in a day, but there is the possibility For this use, a full size or commander sized Colt 1991, or a full size Springfield Mil-Spec would be optimal choices. No need for fancy night sights, beavertails, rails, or other doodads. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't really intend to use this for carry, just something to used to demonstrations and some range use by students. I generally encourage students to bring their own, but since a revolver and a semi-auto are required I can't expect everyone taking the class to have both. So honestly, given the class sizes are rarely over 8 people it is unlikely to see 500rnds in a day, but there is the possibility For this use, a full size or commander sized Colt 1991, or a full size Springfield Mil-Spec would be optimal choices. No need for fancy night sights, beavertails, rails, or other doodads. Good options above, but I'd also throw in the STI Spartan. You couldn't go wrong with any of those guns. |