Posted: 9/24/2009 3:56:17 PM EDT
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Now during one of our HTF discussion we got into a fuss concerning a picture of someone who was trying to sell a Kimber, and had a picture where they had pointed the muzzle at themselves (or at least the camera's direction) and you could clearly see a round sitting down in the chamber.
Now...with other pictures we could see that the man had taken the safety off, deactivated the grip safety, and pulled the trigger to lower the hammer manually. I myself, along with many others, thought this to be silly and irresponsible as the 1911 platform can stay in condition 1 with confidence and safety. But one poster asked the question "What's the difference between lowering the hammer on this and lowering one on a loaded cylinder of a classic double action revolver?" I had no answer for this gentlemen and neither did anyone else. I assume of course he's referring to the fact that hammers get lowered on revolvers as a safety precaution to utilize the double action trigger's resistance, and that the single action trigger of a 1911 would play the same role...making the weapon unable to be fired while the hammer is completely lowered on a loaded chamber. But I'm asking for pure informational purposes. What is the real difference? I'm still against dropping the hammer on a loaded round with my thumb, but the man may have a point. I'm asking you all in order to figure out. Thanks in advance. |
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The answer is simple........
Nothing is different. Only an Idiot or someone ignorant drops a hammer on a loaded chamber. If the pistol does not come with a decocker you should not drop / lower down softly / whatever else you may come up with / put a hammer down on a loaded chamber. For those that say it's OK, I chalange you to one simple thing Lower your hamer on the loaded chamber with the pistol pointed at your head if it's so safe and continue that practice if you think it's so safe. It will keep anyone else from getting hurt from your ignorance. Period. |
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The difference is the 1911 was built with safeties the revolver was not. Next time slap the guy for his ignorance and props to you for knowing better.
Their is not circumstance that you ever need to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber. If you are lowering the hammer why ever risk killing someone, injuring someone or doing the same to yourself. Not worth it eject the cartridge and then lower it that is what smart practical people do. When I pack my 1911 on occasion I go condition 1 and if you do not feel comfortable carrying condition one do not carry your pistol. Morons like that would also decock a Glock if it had an exposed hammer or a way to decock it. You are right safety first no sense in a senseless death or injury because your thumb slipped because they wanted to be like in the movies. |
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Ohh yeah when it is lowered down you can not engage the safety and the hammer can get slapped back and fall and then discharge your round condition 1 is safest just like JMB designed it to be. in English ? I can't think of many situations outside of target shooting, whereupon you've cocked the hammer on your revolver (it is dbl action after all), and fewer still where you've cocked the hammer but decided not to pull the trigger. It's not like you have to perform an action to chamber a round that will leave the hammer cocked as you would with a semi auto. Most modern dbl action revolvers have a transfer bar that prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin except when the trigger is completely pulled rearward. The hammer is generally larger with a flat spur and a longer distance to the fulcrum so it's a bit easier to lower than that on a 1911. Not ideal though. |
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So am I correct in saying that with revolver carry.....it's the only choice. And I suppose transfer bar safeties also play a part in this.
It's good to know that the fact remains the same across the board. Cond. 1 is just always the best choice aside from completely unloading the pistol. |
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Newer revolvers have transfer bars and I think you can load them without having to fully cock the hammer. It's been about a decade since I played with a revolver.
Back in the day those who knew better carried their revolvers with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Today people feel safer with the transfer bars. |
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Ohh yeah when it is lowered down you can not engage the safety and the hammer can get slapped back and fall and then discharge your round condition 1 is safest just like JMB designed it to be. I'm a strong proponent of Condition 1 carry, but in my own tests, it's impossible to set off a primer by pulling the hammer back a little and dropping it. The half cock notch is positioned to not allow this. Now, could the hammer be knocked back to the half cock notch, then bumped again, somehow breaking the halfcock notch and discharging the pistol? Maybe. I've never tried it. And John Moses Browning did not design it to be carried cocked and locked. The predecessor to the M1911, the M1907, only had a grip safety. The thumb safety was added by request of the Cavalry. The predecessor to that, the M1905, had no safety except for the half cock notch. That said, it's reckless and irresponsible to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber on a 1911. There's no reason for it. Not from a safety stance, and sure as hell not from a fighting stance. To cock the hammer on a 1911, you have to break your "master grip" or "full firing grip" to thumb back the hammer. The Colt SAA was designed to be carried hammer down. You don't have to shift your grip to cock the hammer. And there's no safety to lock the hammer back. With a modern double action revolver, it's fairly safe to lower the hammer on an empty chamber, because there is a firing pin block. But there's no need to have cocked a DA revolver in the first place. It's virtually impossible for a properly dimensioned 1911, in working order, to fire with the safety on. And if you ever want to be able to use the 1911 when you need it, it should be carried in Condition 1. If you are not comfortable carrying the 1911 with the hammer locked back, you need to carry something else. 
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Our local shooting range has at least one hole in the roof from when I decocked a revolver. Range master had called an emergency cease fire because some idiot started to walk out onto the hot range to set up his target.
Brought the pistol up to decock it and *boom*. |
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So am I correct in saying that with revolver carry.....it's the only choice. And I suppose transfer bar safeties also play a part in this. It's good to know that the fact remains the same across the board. Cond. 1 is just always the best choice aside from completely unloading the pistol. actually its not the only choice for a revolver. any revolver with a transfer bar system would be ok to do so. there are still many older revolvers around though that would require one to carry with hammer down on a empty chamber. be sure you know what you have before trying this. as to carry for a 1911. im in agreement on how insane it would be to place a round in the chamber and lower the hammer on it. its just not to be done in any circumstance. put it on safe or unload it if you must. there could be a few 1911 variants around that may allow for decocking, as in para ordinance and there da models. i dont know if they will allow decocking. but theres a example of a possible gun thats a variant and could possibly be carried hammer down, dont know if thats the case with the para or any other variant, but if that is its definatly not the same as a standard 1911. personally i would carry with a round in the chamber and safety on and feel totally comfortable and safe in doing so , in fact i have done so countless times. you can add security to this by carry in a thumb break holster that allows the thumbbreak strap to cross over under the hammer. now its safe from a hard blow. and unlike many carry guns its got the safety and grip safety that both have to be disengaged before it can fire, revolvers most other autos only require a pull on the trigger. it would seem a 1911 grabbed from you cocked and locked might slow down the assailant long enough to save a life, though that wouldnt be the case with something like a glock which any idiot could manage to fire instantly with no thought at all. |
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LDA cannot be 'decocked'. The short version of its action is Glock-like. It is partially-cocked like a Glock striker, then the trigger cocks it some more and releases it. If you dry fire the gun (hammer is now down on empty chamber, no pre-cock), you can still engage the safety, locking the slide. Pulling the trigger after releasing the safety does nothing, as it is not precocked.
I have a question...It's been so very long since I owned a wheel gun.....can you lower the hammer on a traditional DA revolver with the cylinder open? Did Col. Cooper invent "Condition One"? I recall the originals were carried just like the Israelis are reputed to carry now, with an empty chamber. And like Sam Elliot did in We Were Soldiers, but when DID this C&L idea evolve. Clearly it makes good sense for a primary weapon, just as it not chambered made good sense for a weapon carried on the fringes of battle or as a backup, but who came up with the idea? |
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I assume of course he's referring to the fact that hammers get lowered on revolvers as a safety precaution to utilize the double action trigger's resistance... Any normal double-action revolver - the only exceptions being the VERY early DA revolvers before the turn of the century - would (should) not have the hammer cocked for any reason other than you are preparing for immediate single-action firing. There is absolutely no reason to cock it while loading, unloading, or otherwise preparing for carry. There are some pistols that are designed to be manually decocked if and when desired - but as none of these are even remotely related to 1911s, this isn't the place to discuss them. Quoted:
Did Col. Cooper invent "Condition One"? I recall the originals were carried just like the Israelis are reputed to carry now, with an empty chamber. And like Sam Elliot did in We Were Soldiers, but when DID this C&L idea evolve. Probably around the turn of the century. There is a REASON why the 1911 has the safeties it does. If the intended mode of carry was condition 3, a thumb safety would serve no purpose (remember, the design originated in an era still dominated by revolvers, which have no safeties and are in an immediate (or near-immediate for SA revolvers) state of readiness, so simply having the safety to have a safety would make even less sense). |
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snip....... I have a question...It's been so very long since I owned a wheel gun.....can you lower the hammer on a traditional DA revolver with the cylinder open? i can only speak to the Postwar S&W's and Colt's Python, but the cylinder cannot be opened with the hammer cocked, nor can the hammer be cocked whilst the cylinder is open. When the cylinder is in a closed position the centre spindle on the extractor depresses a plunger in the frame. (The plunger also engages and is operated by the cylinder latch) If the plunger is not pressed in by the spindle, the hammer is locked, likewise if the hammer hammer is cocked, the cylinder latch will be locked and the cylinder cannot be swung out. |
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Did Col. Cooper invent "Condition One"? I recall the originals were carried just like the Israelis are reputed to carry now, with an empty chamber. And like Sam Elliot did in We Were Soldiers, but when DID this C&L idea evolve. Probably around the turn of the century. There is a REASON why the 1911 has the safeties it does. If the intended mode of carry was condition 3, a thumb safety would serve no purpose (remember, the design originated in an era still dominated by revolvers, which have no safeties and are in an immediate (or near-immediate for SA revolvers) state of readiness, so simply having the safety to have a safety would make even less sense). The thumb safety was designed at the request of the cavalry, who needed a way to make the pistol safe with one hand while on horseback. Seems they didn't want to have a cocked and unlocked pistol while galloping on horseback, say after firing the pistol at some enemies. And since the cavalry was the biggest user of pistols at the time the trials, they got what they wanted. The cavalry was used to the SAA and the Colt DA revolvers, which were in a "safe" condition immediately after each shot. The safety is there so you don't have to lower the hammer on an empty chamber, which is a bad idea if you're on horseback or not. |
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Manually lowering the hammer of any handgun onto a loaded chamber is DANGEROUS. With a revolver you have no choice as it's either manually lowering the hammer or firing the gun. With a semi auto you have a choice the firearm is easily made safe by using the decocker or removing the magazine and racking the slide to clear the chamber. Manually decocking a revolver is a dangerous process to nullify a dangerous condition. Manually decocking a semi auto is negligence. |
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The answer is simple........ Nothing is different. Only an Idiot or someone ignorant drops a hammer on a loaded chamber. If the pistol does not come with a decocker you should not drop / lower down softly / whatever else you may come up with / put a hammer down on a loaded chamber. For those that say it's OK, I chalange you to one simple thing Lower your hamer on the loaded chamber with the pistol pointed at your head if it's so safe and continue that practice if you think it's so safe. It will keep anyone else from getting hurt from your ignorance. Period. Go read the owners manual for the CZ75/CZ85 owners manual. They describe exactly how to do it, says to only use the safety momentarely during "breif interuptions in shooting". |
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Just a few days ago someone posted a thread about a man who lowered the hammer on a loaded 1911 and killed his wife. I read that also, and was thinking it's the same story you here anytime there's a ND/AD. "I was checking the safety/ I was lowering the hammer/ I didn't know it was loaded/ insert your excuse here................." There's all too often an excuse for careless behavior, instead of, "man, I sure fucked up". But this guy gets a pass from me and the benefit of the doubt, as my prayers go out to him. 
"But for the grace of God, there go I"................... a-bare ETA: after reading my post, I hope it doesn't make me sound like a dick. It's certainly not my nature nor my intention to do so. Thanks. |
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Just a few days ago someone posted a thread about a man who lowered the hammer on a loaded 1911 and killed his wife. That was our moderator, SGB. He moved the post to the General Topics forum. here The only reason to lower the hammer on a live round in a 1911 is to carry it in that manner. To get there, you have to retard the firing sequence. Failure to control the hammer during the lowering of it causes the gun to go back to its normal function speed–– which is then to fire a round. In my opinion, If someone wants to carry a 1911 with the hammer down, they would be better carrying it with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Of course if you aren't comfortable carrying the 1911 with the hammer cocked, the safeties engaged, with the chambered loaded, you might want to carry something else. |
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Quoted: Manually lowering the hammer of any handgun onto a loaded chamber is DANGEROUS. With a revolver you have no choice as it's either manually lowering the hammer or firing the gun. With a semi auto you have a choice the firearm is easily made safe by using the decocker or removing the magazine and racking the slide to clear the chamber. Manually decocking a revolver is a dangerous process to nullify a dangerous condition. Manually decocking a semi auto is negligence. Thanks for the explanation. |
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Since seeing this thread, i've been trying to lower the hammer on my unloaded 1911; I cannot imagine doing it safely with a round in the chamber. I find it hard to believe it was designed to be carried that way. If you choose to do so, good luck. You are supposed to firmly grip the gun with your firing hand and use your thumb + index on off hand to firmly grasp the hammer. I've done it quite effectivly. That is exactly how the manual for my CZ 75 says to do it and that's how that gun is designed to be carried. |
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The answer is simple........ Nothing is different. Only an Idiot or someone ignorant drops a hammer on a loaded chamber. If the pistol does not come with a decocker you should not drop / lower down softly / whatever else you may come up with / put a hammer down on a loaded chamber. 
I've carried in Cond. 2 for close to 15 years now. I've dropped the hammer on a live rd probably thousands of times without a SINGLE mishap or FUBAR. I urge you to coach your answers more in the terms of "Here's what *I* do" rather than insult people whom may very well have decades more experience on a gun than you do.............. 
Now, Cond. 2 is NOT for everyone. I don't claim it to be THE best way to carry nor THE safest way to carry. However, having said that, it works best for ME & I also make damn sure I pay the hell out of attention to what I'm doing when I lower the hammer. For the record, I've seen a helluva lot more ND's on non-1911's than I have 1911's, FWIW. My .o2 |
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Newer revolvers have transfer bars and I think you can load them without having to fully cock the hammer. It's been about a decade since I played with a revolver. Back in the day those who knew better carried their revolvers with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Today people feel safer with the transfer bars. My first S&W purchased in 1959 had a transfer bar. Single Actions JD |
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The answer is simple........ Nothing is different. Only an Idiot or someone ignorant drops a hammer on a loaded chamber. If the pistol does not come with a decocker you should not drop / lower down softly / whatever else you may come up with / put a hammer down on a loaded chamber.
I've carried in Cond. 2 for close to 15 years now. I've dropped the hammer on a live rd probably thousands of times without a SINGLE mishap or FUBAR. I urge you to coach your answers more in the terms of "Here's what *I* do" rather than insult people whom may very well have decades more experience on a gun than you do..............
Now, Cond. 2 is NOT for everyone. I don't claim it to be THE best way to carry nor THE safest way to carry. However, having said that, it works best for ME & I also make damn sure I pay the hell out of attention to what I'm doing when I lower the hammer. For the record, I've seen a helluva lot more ND's on non-1911's than I have 1911's, FWIW. My .o2 just because you've been doing it for 15 years does not mean you're doing it right. I don't mean to sound condescending but unless you're pointing your gun at a target there is no reason to have your finger on the trigger of a loaded firearm. It is far safer to flip up your thumb safety then it is to deactivate all the weapon's safeties and engage the firing mechanism on a loaded round. There's no risk of the gun going off when you engage the grip safety and holster the weapon loaded. There is a dangerous risk involved when you load the gun, disengage all safeties, pull the trigger and drop the hammer on a loaded round. What if you coughed, sneezed, slipped, farted? Seriously think about that next time you prep your weapon. Aside from that I think its much faster to draw my 1911 and disengage the thumb safety then to manually thumb back the hammer, this is far from my reason of course as safety is my primary concern. What is your reason for carrying condition 2? and please tell me what the advantages are over carrying condition 1 |
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And to what end? You're effectively disabling your firearm! How do you get it ready to fire again? You have to cock it! It's not easy to thumb cock a 1911 like you can a revolver.
It's maddening. Why carry your piece in a substandard way? Even if it was perfectly safe to lower the hammer on a 1911. Say a 1911 with some sort of decocker. Why? Do you not trust the gun with the safety locking the sear and hammer back? Carry something else if you're scared of a cocked hammer. |
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Condition 1 
Safety on. 
Safety off. VS Condition 2 
Lose Primary Grip of pistol to reach back for hammer. 
Find hammer with thumb. Don't drop pistol. 
Cock hammer with thumb. Keep your finger off the trigger! 
Hope you didn't let it slip before it was cocked all the way, 'cause that would damage your sear on the half cock notch. 
Release hammer and begin to reestablish Primary Grip. 
Make sure you get the grip safety all the way in. 
Primary Grip reestablished. Yay, now you can shoot! 
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Look at the gap between the pistol and the hand. What's holding the pistol right now? The fingers. That's it. Not the palm, not the thumb, not the web of the hand. 
That's much better. Full Firing Grip! The point of a defensive pistol is what, exactly? Defense! Two scenarios: 1. You're strolling down main street at 2 in the afternoon, feeling good about life and full from a nice lunch, when halfway down the block in front of you, out pops a goblin holding a board with a nail in it. The goblin knocks over an old lady, steals her purse, looks at you, yells "Imma gonna KEEEELL you, and your little dog too!" and begins advancing on you. You drop into the classic Weaver stance, draw your pistol, taking care to thumb cock it, because for some reason, you like to keep it in Condition 2, and bring it up in a picture perfect Weaver grip. You yell back, "Stop!" which he does not, but instead, drops his board and draws a huge bowie knife from somewhere and continues running at you. At 21 feet, you fire a perfect Double Tap into his sternum, he drops, and you're a hero. Yay for you. 2. You get off work really late, and as you drive away in the rain, you notice your gas gauge is low. So you pull into your friendly neighborhood gas station to fill 'er up, before you go get something to eat, because you're really hungry, and you're worried that you might be coming down with the flu. As you swipe your credit card at the pump, you notice a 20-something girl with her car's hood up parked in front of the closed convenience store. So you leave the pump running and walk over to her car and ask her if she needs some help. She explains that her car won't start. You look under the hood, see that her battery is disconnected, and as you're reaching for the cable, her boyfriend smashes you in the head with a tire iron, knocking you onto the wet, greasy pavement. He steps over you with the tire iron raised. You have oily water on your hands, and rain and blood in your eyes. Your head is pounding and your vision is blurry. You have seconds to live. You reach under your coat, draw your pistol, which you keep in Condition 2, because that's how you've carried it for 25 years, so it must be the best way. But as you struggle to get the hammer cocked, your grip slips and you drop the pistol. You somehow manage to pick it back up before he hits you, but it won't fire, because it's on the halfcock notch. Then you get it cocked all the way. Apparently the bad guy is really slow. But now your grip is all wrong, and the grip safety is only halfway depressed, and the pistol still won't fire. The morning paper headline reads, "Local man brutally beaten, robbed." Sucks for you. So, in a perfect defensive scenario, like #1, what did you gain by carrying Condition 2? Nothing. Scenario 2? Sucks for you.
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just because you've been doing it for 15 years does not mean you're doing it right. I don't mean to sound condescending but unless you're pointing your gun at a target there is no reason to have your finger on the trigger of a loaded firearm. It is far safer to flip up your thumb safety then it is to deactivate all the weapon's safeties and engage the firing mechanism on a loaded round. No denying it's quicker to flip on a safety than to lower the hammer. As for "doing it right", that's in the eyes of the beholder, IMO. There is a dangerous risk involved when you load the gun, disengage all safeties, pull the trigger and drop the hammer on a loaded round.
Well, if a gun wasn't dangerous, *I* wouldn't carry the GD thing.
What if you coughed, sneezed, slipped, farted?
*I* refuse to play the "what if?" game. *I* take MY gun safety VERY seriously & always have. Must be a Marine thing? Regardless, it's how *I* carry & will continue to do so. I keep my finger under the hammer as long as possible while lowering the hammer to prevent the very thing you're wailing about, FWIW. What is your reason for carrying condition 2? and please tell me what the advantages are over carrying condition 1
I learned to shoot on a SA revolver. I developed the method of drawing back the hammer as I brought the gun up from the holster, so it's simply my PERSONAL preference to do. Note: I don't draw the hammer back while the gun is in the holster, only on the way up. You guys who throw out insults like they're candy at Halloween should take a large civility pill, IMO. |
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Mr. Cole it appears you would have most people at a disadvantage when it comes to readying a downed hammer on a handgun. But to most younger people like me or people who just don't have that experience with condition 2, I'm sure you could agree that Condition 1 would be the easiest and safest method to pick up on for this particular weapon. It also doesn't require you to break any of the four rules. Although you may be well practiced and have excellent muscle memory in your thumb, others do not. Yes, rules can be ignored at certain times to achieve certain goals.....but I don't think for the large majority of people that anyone should break any one of those four rules if they do not have to. Which is why I think condition 2 should not be commonplace....even though it has it's place.
And yes, I agree with you, the what if game is silly and childish. But I am highly uncomfortable with the idea of pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber without intention of firing. Also, your comment about not carrying the weapon if it wasn't dangerous. That comment doesn't fit the correct context because he's not referring to the incapacitation power of the pistol, but to your risk to hurt yourself by preparing condition 2 WHEN COMPARED to preparing condition 1. As stated before, you obviously have some skills in thumbed hammer retention and cocking. But that is a skill I fear most people who shoot this pistol exclusively do not practice. But why do it when there is something faster and safer. Maybe you consider letting the hammer ride forward safe because you've been doing it for years.....but why would this be better than just pushing up on the thumb safety? Even with the skill...clicking in the thumb safety just seems like the most logical, safety-driven action to me. If I am missing something..please inform me...as my purpose is not to jeer or shoot remarks...but to learn. ETA: I recall there being some modification that allows for the thumb safety to drop the hammer when in engaged....and cock the hammer when disengaged...sort of a two-way decocker. If anyone has information on such a device, please tell me. |
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People forget that mentalities and training change over the years.
After WWII, most vets were taught to carry with the chamber empty, so some of the few firearms trainers training to carry a semi auto pistol in condition three, racking the slide after the draw. Not everyone did this, but many considered this the default safe thing to do. I don't know when condition 2 carry started really getting popular with the 1911, however I do know that it has a boom in the late 60's to early 80's. Carrying condition 1 openly made you look hostile. Condition 3 was way too slow, so Cond 2 was considered the way to go. Draw the pistol and with a quick flick of the hammer you are ready to fire, and you don't even have to fumble with that small safety. It seems to me that cond 2 was really pushed by people training police officers. That scary change from the tradition revolver to the jamamatics left many agencies with instructors who did not know how to use or instruct the use of the semi auto. As people started becoming more familiar with the 1911 and using it more, cocked and locked became known as the safe and fast way to carry the pistol. Condition 2 is generally considered unsafe and foolish, however there are still some older people who were taught it and advocate it as well as newer shooter who someone seem to think it is the way to go. Nowadays almost everyone " in the know" or experienced with 1911s stats that condition 1 is right. However far too many make the assumption that it has always been seen that way, and that is not true. |
I have to agree with BobCole here. Been shooting the 1911 for better than 35 years. I've lowered the hammer on a live round before and don't believe any cute little puppies died in the process. Yup, guns are DANGEROUS, thanks for stating the obvious. I tend to lower the hammer with my off hand thumb and forefinger and have never had a problem. Think I even farted once while doing it. Used to shoot my Colt Single Action Army guns alot. Lowered the hammer on them too (gasp) without incident. Different generations do different things I guess.
Different World |
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Quoted: I have to agree with BobCole here. Been shooting the 1911 for better than 35 years. I've lowered the hammer on a live round before and don't believe any cute little puppies died in the process. Yup, guns are DANGEROUS, thanks for stating the obvious. I tend to lower the hammer with my off hand thumb and forefinger and have never had a problem. Think I even farted once while doing it. Used to shoot my Colt Single Action Army guns alot. Lowered the hammer on them too (gasp) without incident. Different generations do different things I guess.Different World As a LEO I arrested many Drunk Drivers that claimed that they weren't drunk .............. no matter what their Blood Alcohol Level Was. Unsafe is Unsafe no matter how long you've been doing it ................. Denial .......... it isn't a river in Egypt. |
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There's not a good reason for it. Condition 1 is faster to get into action, safer to use, and can be used under stress.
What if you actually have to fight with your pistol? And you manage to get it cocked and use it effectively, blah blah blah. Now what? Adrenaline rush, stress pounding your head, maybe blood and sweat on your hands. Now you're going to put the pistol back in the holster. You're going to lower the hammer on a live round under stress.
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it's reckless and irresponsible to lower the hammer on a loaded chamber on a 1911. There's no reason for it. According to whom? You?
And you're the expert, because you've been carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 for 15 years? I knew a man who drove a truck for a living. He always wore his hat on sideways, and never had an accident for 20 years. That doesn't mean that wearing your hat on sideways prevents accidents!
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Condition 2 offers no additional benefit over condition 1 and I do not understand the point of using it.
Even if it had some benefit, the process of putting your firearm into condition 2 is unsafe, no matter how you cut it. You could have designed the 1911 and literally had 100 years of practice doing it and it would still be an unsafe practice. I believe in doing things the right way, and the right way to me means the way with the lowest risk and highest reward. That's condition 1, safety on, never lowering the hammer on a live round. Ever. Or maybe that's just the Marine in ME talking. |
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Just explain 1 advantage of condition 2. We've got a dozen advantages inherent in Condition 1, and even some in condition 3, but I don't see any for condition 2, other than some people are used to it.
People were used to smoking 2 packs a day. People were used to driving without seat belts. People were used to throwing their coke cans out their car windows. People were used to driving with a 0.12 percent blood alcohol level. Gosh, I'm feeling nostalgic. 
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why does that chick have a mustache ? anyway condition 2ers, whilst perhaps you are happy to risk a bullet to part of your own anatomy, some of us might share a range with you, hence would rather not be on the receiving end of one of your NDs. |
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How about in my quicksafe, fellas? Don't really want to be fumbling in the dark with a Condition One 1911. Don't really want to be racking the slide, either. Really? Condition 1 makes me feel better about grabbing it when its dark. A lot of stuff needs to happen for it to go bang, and its not easy to depress the grip safety, release the thumb safety AND pull the trigger without the gun in sitting properly in your hand. |
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And you're the expert, because you've been carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 for 15 years? Did I claim to be an "expert? No. Did I say Cond. 2 was for everyone? No. Did I say Cond. 2 was THE best way or fastest way? No. What I DID say was that it's NOT for everyone. In fact, I have mentioned this MULTIPLE times. Not everyone drinks the same kool-aid when it comes to firearms & how they carry. CCW is probably the most personal choice someone can make, IMO. What is MOST disappointing is a mod has allowed many in here (a tech forum) to imply that only an idiot would dare to carry Cond. 2. That's both surprising AND disappointing.
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I have to agree with BobCole here. Been shooting the 1911 for better than 35 years. I've lowered the hammer on a live round before and don't believe any cute little puppies died in the process. Yup, guns are DANGEROUS, thanks for stating the obvious. I tend to lower the hammer with my off hand thumb and forefinger and have never had a problem. Think I even farted once while doing it. Used to shoot my Colt Single Action Army guns alot. Lowered the hammer on them too (gasp) without incident. Different generations do different things I guess.
Different World As a LEO I arrested many Drunk Drivers that claimed that they weren't drunk .............. no matter what their Blood Alcohol Level Was. Unsafe is Unsafe no matter how long you've been doing it ................. Denial .......... it isn't a river in Egypt. As a LEO I've arrested a lot of drunks too...not sure how that fits into this discussion, where's the photo of the rabbit with a pancake on his head? Also I didn't say I carried in condition 2, just said I've lowered the hammer before on a live round. 
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And you're the expert, because you've been carrying a 1911 in Condition 2 for 15 years? Did I claim to be an "expert? No. Did I say Cond. 2 was for everyone? No. Did I say Cond. 2 was THE best way or fastest way? No. What I DID say was that it's NOT for everyone. In fact, I have mentioned this MULTIPLE times. Not everyone drinks the same kool-aid when it comes to firearms & how they carry. CCW is probably the most personal choice someone can make, IMO. What is MOST disappointing is a mod has allowed many in here (a tech forum) to imply that only an idiot would dare to carry Cond. 2. That's both surprising AND disappointing.
Yes, the emotion in this thread has been surprising, and I also agree that many threads that seem less so are quickly shutdown. I believe that this forum has shifted in the last couple of years from a tech forum to more of a general discussion forum. Seems like a lot of the previous posters are not around anymore, or at least not posting as much. Maybe it is time to step back and see if we are still tracking to the objectives. I believe almost all of us acknowledge that condition 1 offers the best solution to carrying the 1911; however, just because Mr. Cole prefers carrying condition 2 should not subject him to this kind of abuse. After all, we should be able to discuss a point without it degrading to this level. JD |