[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Colt Rail vs. MC Operator (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 7/21/2009 10:10:10 AM EDT
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OK: I've sold a few things and I've got permission to buy another 1911. This one will be a duty gun, and will require a rail. So far, the MC Operator is my choice and have been waiting to find one locally or for Bud's to have one in stock long enough for me to purchase it. However, I've been following Colt's new "Rail" Gun 1911. I've read lots of hype, but until today I had no idea that they were actually available. Unfortunately, due to limited funds I cannot go ARFCOM and purchase both - it has to be one or the other. I'd really like to have a stainless or hard-chromed railed 1911. I've tossed around the idea of having an MC Operator hard chromed with some additional work done as well. The Colt has a slight two-tone going on that I suppose is due to the materials used for the receiver. Does anyone have the Colt? Can you give any reviews/pics of your weapon? Springfield CS rocks; that goes a long way knowing what to expect with my purchase down the road. However, I don't want to dismiss the Colt without good reason. The Colt is running about $150 less the the Operator. |
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Wow, I didn't realize the Colt rail gun was available yet.
Well if you want SS or hard-chrome and the Colt comes that way for $150 less than the MC Operator I'd say it's a no brainer. Otherwise you can have Springfield hard-chrome a MC Operator for $265. At $400 more to get the MC Operator the way you want it, go Colt. If the SS/HC wasn't a big deal, I'd go Springer because of their customer service. |
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Talk to Colt owners you know and respect.
Talk to SA ownders you know and respect. Disregard all quality/reliability/cust service information you gain from the interwebz, "my friend had...", "everybody knows...", or magazines. Do consider actual availability of the gun. I also was unware the rail gun actually exists. and I will keep my opinion to myself. |
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All valid points.
Unfortunately, no one I know has the Colt or plans on purchasing one anytime soon (not because they have issues with them, but because they are not in the market). I can wait, but two probabilities concern me; (1) the availability of this weapon is about to disappear as ARFCOM becomes aware of it. (2) money not spent has a way of finding crisis causing said funds to evaporate... |
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The Colt might need some edges rounded if you get it (they are sharp as hell), and this could cause a need to have it re-blasted or re-finished. The Operator will be good to go. The Colt will have a series 80 firing pin safety and the Operator will not. Things to consider. Not sure if both come with night sites or not, but something else to consider. I really want a Colt rail gun myself, but its only for the fact that it is a Colt and I admit that. I think you will probably be happy with either. Whatever you get shoot the hell out of it to ensure reliability. Best of luck
Jets |
| If it was me making the choice it would be a Colt, with the regret being I didn't buy the Springfield. Does that make sense ??? It does if your a Colt fan and know how much work it takes to get a 1911 tuned the way you run. The Springfield hands down will run better than Colt new fresh out of the box. Another plus for Springfield is bonded finish. You can figure spending another 200.00 on the Colt if that's the finish you want. |
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If it was me making the choice it would be a Colt, with the regret being I didn't buy the Springfield. Does that make sense ??? It does if your a Colt fan and know how much work it takes to get a 1911 tuned the way you run. The Springfield hands down will run better than Colt new fresh out of the box. Another plus for Springfield is bonded finish. You can figure spending another 200.00 on the Colt if that's the finish you want. Oh, so all my flawlessly functioning new Colts in the last few years won't run as well as a Springfield? |
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What about a double star? I still have yet to hear of them get field tested. But so far I have yet to hear anything really bad about them either. Its a full size 1911 with a full rail. Any who just a thought
http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/doublestar1911-poole.gif |
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I really wish current Colts were what they used to be back in the 50's and early 60's. But my experience, the Colt from the late 80's to all of the 90's makes me think they suck. Being a stubborn SOB and if I was unable to tear one apart and inspect it before buying I would buy a SA MC Operator and not look back. The Colt is only a possibilty if it was going to see some work at a gunsmith. Then Id probably just buy a SA Pro w/rail or a Wilson or Brown light rail.
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About 1 month ago the first Colt Rail 1911 I saw sold on GB for a "Buy it Now" of $980 ! It was there for several days as I almost clicked on it. Then another one got bids over $1300.
I think the MC Operator is the way to go, even over the TRP. Speaking $ for $. |
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I purchased it earlier this month. 250rds so far with a variety of magazines Wilson, colt, Chip, novak, etc) without any issues. I was in the same boat as you. After waiting a few months for the Operator to come back in stock at Bud's, I stumbled across the rail gun. I'm a fan of stainless guns and I have an 80 series government that's treated me well, so I picked up the colt. No complaints, fit and finish are what I expected. It's got less slide play then the standard government. Some of the strong points (at least for me) include: GI guide rod, Novak 3 dot, Smith and Alexander Beavertail, and minimal mim parts. The two tone thing you commented on is the result of the slide sides being brushed while the rest of the gun is matte. I can't speak on the springer, never had one. Hope this helps. |
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It does if your a Colt fan and know how much work it takes to get a 1911 tuned the way you run.. Oh, so all my flawlessly functioning new Colts in the last few years won't run as well as a Springfield? No........................... You said a Springfield will hands down run better out of the box than any Colt. So my WW2 repro, LW XSE Commander, and NRM S80 Gov't Model that have run flawlessly won't run as well as a Springfield? What about my dad's Defender that has never malfunctioned? Or my best friend's 2 LW XSE Commanders? Or my co-workers NRM S80 Gov't? 
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Springer. People can say Colt was the first, but Springfield doesn't have that dumbass Swartz Safety.  I can see you are well informed.  
Yup. But hey, Springfield has that nifty ILS safety!!!  I thought they had it in the XSE guns, sorry. I swapped out the ILS stuff with some small parts from Brownells cheap, took care of the unneeded safety crap. Truth be told, I've been thinking of getting an XSE when funds free up a little. |
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Springer. People can say Colt was the first, but Springfield doesn't have that dumbass Swartz Safety. I can see you are well informed.
Yup. But hey, Springfield has that nifty ILS safety!!! I thought they had it in the XSE guns, sorry. I swapped out the ILS stuff with some small parts from Brownells cheap, took care of the unneeded safety crap. Truth be told, I've been thinking of getting an XSE when funds free up a little. Psss Colt doesn't use the Swartz safety. They tried it in the early 20s and found it to be unreliable and ditched it. You are thinking about Brand "K."
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The poll being run kind of speaks for your answer. I don't own a Springfield in a 1911 but spend time around friends that do and guys at the gun club. I own a variety of weapons including four Colt's... Two being XSE Combat Elite's..... I'm sorry to hurt your feelings. I'm a Colt fan and the only name in a 1911 as far as my concerns go is Colt.* That said I'm an open minded gun enthusiasts and I can only call it like I experience and see it Joe....My collection of handguns consist by brand name are Colt, Sig Sauer, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Xd, Para-Ordnance, Beretta, Browning Hi-Power, Kel-Tec, and Ruger.. My Colt's were anything but perfect out of the box. They needed triggers done, barrels beveled, edges smoothed. The slides on my XSE's would cut the shit out of your fingers.... Springfield's have more attention to fit and finish.... I've said this before... Life is too short to be hung up on one make of gun.
Bottom Line: Colt makes an excellent base gun whose name will always achieve a better resale than like competitors.....
Edit and note: I need to update avatar with a better picture of that Colt...90's Series 80 Mark IV Colt Combat Elite. It's on it's second life. Bought new by previous owner who tried his hand at IPSC for a while. Sent to Ed Brown for Bar-Sto barrel, what looked to be a Pachmayr trigger, Pachmayr mainspring ..... sear and hammer hooks stoned by Ed. This was before Ed Brown was Ed Brown. Then owner added some 3M skate board tape for that classic old school look.... What I didn't know, the tape was used to cover a checkering job gone bad.... which I know Ed had nothing to do with...................She's had somewhere between 30 to 50,000 rounds put through her.. Before a friend and I rejuvenated it I had put well over 15,000 thru the pipe. Since it was used for IPSC for some years one could only guess what went through... 20,000 for a guess would be well on the light side. Now it has had the checkering redone as best we could and from a short distance it looks fine. I kept both hammer and sear. As well the series 80 parts that Ed had converted to shims..... Ed converted it to series 70 and took plunger out.. I replaced barrel with Nowlin. Trigger, thumb safety, beavertail, and mainspring are Ed Brown. Had slide reblued, receiver bead blasted and sanded the sides. Fitted with Millett Bulleseye sights which are uglier than hell and only a bullseye shooter could love..... But tell me Joe.... What other make of gun would have such a colorful story to tell with that kind of history..... Only the name Colt gives a weapon an opportunity for a story like that.................. Now, with that said the writer of this OP is looking for a new duty weapon.... My XSE's were just not duty dependable out of the box new and there is no way in hell I would have trust them for 100 % life saving dependability like I would the Springfield name. He's on a budget and I would think that to suggest a need for out of box service dependability. Between the two Springfield really is the best choice. |
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If it was me making the choice it would be a Colt, with the regret being I didn't buy the Springfield. Does that make sense ??? It does if your a Colt fan and know how much work it takes to get a 1911 tuned the way you run. The Springfield hands down will run better than Colt new fresh out of the box. Another plus for Springfield is bonded finish. You can figure spending another 200.00 on the Colt if that's the finish you want. I disagree completely with this, newer Colt 1911's have some of the most reliable 1911's I have used out of the box. Springfield has been really good as well but I would give the nod to Colt. Better small components as well. In the end, tough decision. I would get the SA only because this is a "new" Colt and hasn't been around long enough to pass judgement. |
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Quoted: Quoted: If it was me making the choice it would be a Colt, with the regret being I didn't buy the Springfield. Does that make sense ??? It does if your a Colt fan and know how much work it takes to get a 1911 tuned the way you run. The Springfield hands down will run better than Colt new fresh out of the box. Another plus for Springfield is bonded finish. You can figure spending another 200.00 on the Colt if that's the finish you want. I disagree completely with this, newer Colt 1911's have some of the most reliable 1911's I have used out of the box. Springfield has been really good as well but I would give the nod to Colt. Better small components as well... I agree with bullitt5172. I don't see this at all as a "hands down" fact and it approaches the level of BS.
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Gentlemen:
Thank you all for the posted replies. I anticipated some "spirited" debate, and the input is most helpfull. I've only owned one Colt for a short time when I was much younger and sold it prior to developing any loyalty to it. My current 1911's are Springers and a Caspian build (sold it to make this purchase), but I was (and still am) intrigued by the new Colt. I guess I'm going to follow my instincts and continue trying to locate an MC. Again, I thank you all for your input! |
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For my money, I'd have to consider my motives...
The SA has been doing the railed 1911 for a while now, and I would go so far as to say that the MC Operator is the standard for a railed duty 1911. The Colt has never done a railed 1911 before so there's a mixed bag of issues here. Right or wrong, I would count on the platform as a limited run, making the ownership of a CRG both a blessing and a curse. Jumping on the bandwagon makes the Colt purchase more compelling due to the rarity, but it also messes with you with respect to using the pistol due to collectability. If it comes down to finish, then the CRG > TRP, IMO when it comes to SS rail guns (if you don't prefer stainless then MCO > CRG). If this is going to be a use-intended duty pistol, then the edge definitely goes to the MCO. If you can deal with the blessings/curses of the collectability, then the CRG is something different. ETA (Read your post above)... I don;t think there is a wrong answer between the choices, only a better choice for your needs. If I had to go with one, I'd go with the MCO myself, but wouldn't have any qualms with both in the safe. |
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Outside of the rail, the Colt Rail Gun appears to be a conventional Stainless 5" XSE pistol. There is nothing radical here that indicates the concern one might have over a completely new pistol.
That's correct. Though it does have the standard GI recoil spring assembly, thankfully. |
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Quoted: I looked at the Colt at a gun show and the edges were so sharp that I cut my thumb without even realizing it until blood was all over the slide! I ended up buying a Wilson CQB. Yes, I shave with mine and mow the lawn and trim my toenails with ALL the Colts I own.  |
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I looked at the Colt at a gun show and the edges were so sharp that I cut my thumb without even realizing it until blood was all over the slide! I ended up buying a Wilson CQB. Yes, I shave with mine and mow the lawn and trim my toenails with ALL the Colts I own. I kind of thought that to be the case.......... |
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I looked at the Colt at a gun show and the edges were so sharp that I cut my thumb without even realizing it until blood was all over the slide! I ended up buying a Wilson CQB. Yes, I shave with mine and mow the lawn and trim my toenails with ALL the Colts I own. I dont know about mowing or clipping your nails but you could shave with them. 
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OK, OK, all right already. Time to put rubber to the road and show exactly what I use to make comparisons. Fair Enough ????
 
 
Top left corner is a stock XSE, the only thing done... changed stocks, bevel barrel, and a 4 1/2 lb trigger for carry. Careful because that edge will cut, it has me several times. I carry it on occasion, it will get a full custom package when I get to it. Top right. That's one serial number up from previous... she's sweet. Beveled slide edge. Bottom left. Got rid of the Smith & Alexander MSH,GS, and TS... Puke...... Bottom right. Finished product.... That's what I see when staring at a new Colt.... A lot of hard work. At a minimum a new out of the box Colt needs a bevel barrel before I would even consider holstering it. When I look at the Springfield like the OP writer was talking about I see a finished and for the most part tuned product... I see a good place to start when looking at a new Colt. |
| Colt cordless Norelcos aren't an occurance with every new gun, but they aren't that rare either. In my experience, finding a shave-worthy new Colt is far less common than finding one with shitty looking miscut grip panels (which is practically a given on SS models) but far more common than finding a Colt with a loose plunger tube. I have also noticed (in my experience) that for whatever reason there is greater likelihood of having a sharp SS model than a carbon steel. Also, FWIW, I am not so sure how well SA does in stainless overall either. I recall Ken Mays doing a fairly detailed report of a NIB SS Milspec or Loaded, and he complained about the edges of that one as well. |
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Quoted: OK, OK, all right already. Time to put rubber to the road and show exactly what I use to make comparisons. Fair Enough ??... When I look at the Springfield like the OP writer was talking about I see a finished and for the most part tuned product... I see a good place to start when looking at a new Colt. "Fair" isn't an issue as you can buy or alter what you want. I've not had the "shave with it" issues with any of my new Colts and changing out parts is a choice not an indication that anything is finished or tuned. Your opinions (as are anyone's) are just that and only exist as facts in YOUR mind. Well, enough of this ! I'm off to mow the lawn with my Combat Elite.
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Outstanding!
Although I didn't want to create too much havoc, I do love the passion expressed here which is why I posed the question. I've already set ammo aside to put the weapon through a number of paces before it's carried. I'm blessed in that I have access to our department's range and our academy's as well. Not that this means anything to anyone but me, but a little more about the purchase... Every gun I have right now serves a "purpose"; that is to say they are either used for duty or hunting - with the exception of two (2) 1911's that my wife and I used to carry on duty which are now retired and a few left to me by my father. No "bling" or accessory guns (you know, bought to make you look too cool with whatever you are wearing). This purchase, I need a weapon that is dependable for duty use. I want to make some additions to give it a little style to make it mine. It's my intent after carrying it for a year (and saving pennies) to send it to a reputable smith for upgrades. I have a child with special needs, so this weapon will be a multi-year project. I love all the full blown custom jobs, but that will never be in my future with what I make and my responsibilities to my family (hence the selling so that I can buy originally stated). Both appear to be beautiful weapons. I've looked at what I can only assume are comparible weapons but in the end have found that only these two fall within my price range. My "range" is pretty inflexible; $1300 cannot be exceeded for the original purchase. I guess I'm not sure what this commentary adds to the discussion other than this will be my last purchase for quite a while or at least my foreseable future. Again, I appreciate all the input. I follow the 1911 community here on ARFCOM religiously everyday, and I want to thank everyone for their thoughts. Once I get something, I'll post pics! |
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Outstanding! Not that this means anything to anyone but me, but a little more about the purchase... Things like this help us help you, of course the idea of duty and custom make the choice clear as mud sometimes. What I like about the SA is it is a reasonably-established "out of the box" production duty pistol. The reason to go with the SA is because you want to hit everything in one shot and be done with it. KISS - MC Operator, leave as is for the most part. Want something custom? Railed Professional or custom, get it done all in one go. While I am biased against Series 80 Colts, the advantage of this platform (if you have nothing against the SS finish) is that stainless lets you fool around as you go without much problems. Drop in a new "Hardcore/Bulletproof" extractor or thumb safety and it matches. Have a hand-fitted magwell or beavertail and it matches. Bob the grip or have a beavertail professionally fit and there is no refinish. With the SA you pretty much need to get everything done to the pistol in one go, whether the front end or back end, or you are going to have to choose between the cost or aggrevation of multiple refinishes or mis-matched parts (until that final refinish is applied). If the finishes and firing systems are equally inoffensive to you, I would thus boil it down to SA for one shot convenience, or Colt for permanent work in progress. |
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Pulp:
This is the sort of information I really look for. The gun will be at least a "two-step" process in that I will be purchasing/using the weapon initially, and then later add the little tweaks that will make it mine. I wish I could buy a Springfield Professional, a RRA or a Miller Custom (I really would love one of these) but I have a blond haired blue eyed 3 year old blessing that Daddy can't let down, so... In my heart of hearts, I guess I'm leaning mostly towards the SA but I've never had a Colt (as mentioned earlier, I had one about 20 yrs ago but turned around and sold it fairly quickly) and was intrigued by the railed model. For a while I was seriously trying to obtain one of the SA full-railed models, but recently shot one and while there certainly is a "cool" factor the weapon was not exactly condusive to my duty needs. I understand when the regulars here roll their eyes at the daily postings of "what should I buy?" But as lame as this may sound, when you are torn or perhaps you are leaning towards a purchase, it helps to hear someone else's thoughts on the subject. No, in and of itself it won't make me go out and buy something but it does help me get my mind right about a purchase or passing it up. Thats why I'm appreciative of anyone taking the time to offer their thoughts. Now its a matter of finding one. 1911smith: I'm down St. Louis area way. I'll be in Jeff City for a Force on Force Instructor School during the first week in August; if I can break away I'll try to take you up on your offer! |
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Sounds great! Stratego is putting on a 5 day instructor course at the Highway Patrol Academy; wish I could bring my new weapon with me and fire some Sim rounds through it but I'd sort of have to purchase it first...so it's the Glock.
I'll definetly try to get some free time to visit if nothing else. |
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nturavrgcop, I started carrying a 1911 as a Duty Weapon in 1979. Being a little limited to what was available I chose a Colt MK IV Series 70 Gold Cup. First thing I did is run 500 rounds through it, change the recoil spring and send it to a company called Nitex which plated it in electroless nickle. This sidearm spent a decade riding a duty holster in Michigan and never failed me, however should I have to pick a duty sidearm today it would not be my choice.  Today there is so much more available to pick from in a duty 1911. I've handled and done some smithing on Kimber Warriors and Springfield Operators. I've yet to handle or work on a Colt Rail Gun. Being a believer in K.I.S.S I prefer not to have to worry about the Colt's firing pin block (which I'd remove personally, but most likely would not be acceptable to a LE Agency) The Kimber Warrior (of which I own) has a higher reported rate of deficiencies than the Springfield MC Operator. Springfield Armory has Outstanding Customer service and (IMHO) the best factory custom shop in the industry, Hench my recommendation of the Operator. When I was looking for a railed 1911 I'd narrowed the choice down to the Warrior and the Operator, the Warrior won out because I got it dirt cheap.  |
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SGB:
First, thanks for taking the time to respond. I follow much of what you and some of the other regulars post quite closely. Second, I blame you damn near 100% for wanting a hard chromed 1911 based upon your avitar and posted pics of your weapon. I carried a S&W 4006 Tactical for 8 years; the finish became my favorite and have been looking for a 1911 in the same vein... That being said, I am going to be totally honest by saying I do want to add some personal touches to it. Someone on the board said "Guns are like cars; adding something to improve their performance is good, adding something to improve their coolness is stupid". While I agree to the extent that my weapon will have to be dependable I still want a little "style". Now mind you, now one of these South of the Border rigs or such... Now, that will be down the road. I did look at the Warrior, and it felt pretty good but I've had a few (read 2) of my guys have some issues with them; nothing over the top but if makes you second guess em than I just can't abide by that. My dream would be to have a gun blue printed and built from the frame up, but my last name isn't Gates or Rockefeller and I don't think the President is going to award me a grant for one, so I'll do the best I can on what I have... |