Posted: 6/2/2009 3:11:25 PM EDT
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I compete with my kimber warrior.
Is there anything I can do to lighten my recoil or make the gun function with light loads? |
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You have to be REAL careful shooting "underpowered" ammo for several reasons.
Believe it or not, undercharging a case with less than the minimal amount of powder can & HAS caused a ruptered case. No one seems to be able to give a specific reason for this happening, even the powder mfgrs. Yes, I myself have seen it happen & watched to powder get measured to show it was "short". Another caution is a squib rd. With slower recoil, one may very well be more prone to slapping the trigger. We all know sending a rd down the bbl with a squib lodged in it is normally NOT a receipe for success. If you're wishing to lessen your split times, many shooters mill out openings in their slide. Less weight = faster slide speed. Obviously this is only one part of a comb that has to be reconciled, the other parts being the recoil spring weight & ammo choice. My .o2 |
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Quoted:
You have to be REAL careful shooting "underpowered" ammo for several reasons. Believe it or not, undercharging a case with less than the minimal amount of powder can & HAS caused a ruptered case. No one seems to be able to give a specific reason for this happening, even the powder mfgrs. Yes, I myself have seen it happen & watched to powder get measured to show it was "short". Another caution is a squib rd. With slower recoil, one may very well be more prone to slapping the trigger. We all know sending a rd down the bbl with a squib lodged in it is normally NOT a receipe for success. If you're wishing to lessen your split times, many shooters mill out openings in their slide. Less weight = faster slide speed. Obviously this is only one part of a comb that has to be reconciled, the other parts being the recoil spring weight & ammo choice. My .o2 Slide cuts, holes, slots, etc. are illegal for Single Stack. |
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There is no single-stack division in IPSC.
IPSC divisions are Open, Modified, Standard, Production, and Revolver Standard. USPSA, on the other hand, is composed of Open, Limited, Limited 10, Single-Stack, Production, and Revolver. I make this point because, despite their similarity, they use different rule sets, which can differ quite drastically in some areas. (For example, if somebody asks what types of pistols and equipment to consider for Production division, the recommendations will be WAY different between IPSC and USPSA due to drastically different division requirements.) And I don't know of any clubs in the US that are actually putting on regular IPSC matches. I myself run in USPSA with a Colt Commander using loads with Berry's 200gr RS at the moment (still working through some loads with different powders, so I haven't 100% settled on "the load" yet, but I do get good performance out of those projos). It will be replaced by a purpose-built Government model (likely on a Caspian frame & slide) within the next year or two. |
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I was never one to shoot twink loads when I was shooting IPSC, but felt recoil was reduced shooting my 40 cal using heavy 10mm bullets (220 grn) over a fairly fast powder such as VV N-320. That was when the PF was 175. Now that it's 165 you shouldn't have any problem with something like a 230 grn bullet over the same powder for a 45. Get a chrono and do some tests.
All the talk on this board about faster follow up shots mean nothing trying to relate it to caliber, size of gun, stance, or whatever. It's how you grip the gun that will give faster split times with combat accuracy. Think of a Ransom rest. If you lock your wrists properly the muzzle will return to the same position regardless of caliber or PF. Rob Leatham and Brian Enos developed the technique. It works. Otherwise, just deal with it. It's a 45 after all. Or just shoot minor with a 9mm. NAD |
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There is no single-stack division in IPSC. IPSC divisions are Open, Modified, Standard, Production, and Revolver Standard. USPSA, on the other hand, is composed of Open, Limited, Limited 10, Single-Stack, Production, and Revolver. I make this point because, despite their similarity, they use different rule sets, which can differ quite drastically in some areas. (For example, if somebody asks what types of pistols and equipment to consider for Production division, the recommendations will be WAY different between IPSC and USPSA due to drastically different division requirements.) And I don't know of any clubs in the US that are actually putting on regular IPSC matches. I myself run in USPSA with a Colt Commander using loads with Berry's 200gr RS at the moment (still working through some loads with different powders, so I haven't 100% settled on "the load" yet, but I do get good performance out of those projos). It will be replaced by a purpose-built Government model (likely on a Caspian frame & slide) within the next year or two. There are a small number of IPSC matches run each year in the States, mainly for World Shoot training. Any international (Level IV or V) matches must be conducted with IPSC rules, such as the upcoming Pan-American Shotgun tournament. That Americans continue to insist on their own special rules bemuses me. |
| We Americans use rules that suite our gun laws, and current gun trends. I don't like the gun classes in IPSC, so much so that I pulled out of the IPSC match to be held in Ohio this October. I was registered for the event before it changed from USPSA event to IPSC event. IPSC Nationals even. Don't care, don't like the rules. I shoot USPSA. |
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You have to be REAL careful shooting "underpowered" ammo for several reasons. Believe it or not, undercharging a case with less than the minimal amount of powder can & HAS caused a ruptered case. No one seems to be able to give a specific reason for this happening, even the powder mfgrs. Yes, I myself have seen it happen & watched to powder get measured to show it was "short". Another caution is a squib rd. With slower recoil, one may very well be more prone to slapping the trigger. We all know sending a rd down the bbl with a squib lodged in it is normally NOT a receipe for success. If you're wishing to lessen your split times, many shooters mill out openings in their slide. Less weight = faster slide speed. Obviously this is only one part of a combination that has to be reconciled, the other parts being the recoil spring weight & ammo choice. My .o2 Slide cuts, holes, slots, etc. are illegal for Single Stack. For that class, yes. He can shoot a single stack in the other classes with the slide modded. It may not be as much fun, but he'll still get to use his single stack frame. |
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We Americans use rules that suite our gun laws, and current gun trends. I don't like the gun classes in IPSC, so much so that I pulled out of the IPSC match to be held in Ohio this October. I was registered for the event before it changed from USPSA event to IPSC event. IPSC Nationals even. Don't care, don't like the rules. I shoot USPSA. Single Stack is about the only decent division - Limited is different for the sake of being different. I like the idea of L-10, but it could just as easily be S-10. And USPSA production is just stupid. |
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We Americans use rules that suite our gun laws, and current gun trends. I don't like the gun classes in IPSC, so much so that I pulled out of the IPSC match to be held in Ohio this October. I was registered for the event before it changed from USPSA event to IPSC event. IPSC Nationals even. Don't care, don't like the rules. I shoot USPSA. Single Stack is about the only decent division - Limited is different for the sake of being different. I like the idea of L-10, but it could just as easily be S-10. And USPSA production is just stupid. How many IPSC shooters does Austrailia have?? Because we have a ton. I would honestly like to see the breakdown by country Limited ten was mostly for California which has a huge group of shooters, what is wrong with production??? I dont know the raw numbers but I would think we have more shooters in the US that shoot USPSA than a good chunk of the rest of the world added together. |
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And USPSA production is just stupid. Be kind enough to elaborate, please? Curious as well... I had a huge reply comparing the two Production divisions, as well as Limited vs Standard, but lost it, apparently. 
I will make an effort to recompose it if this topic gets moved over to the IDPA/USPSA/IPSC forum, since it's not really appropriate here in 1911 Discussions anyway. And I'd just like to add that USPSA is more geared to the gun culture of the US moreso than just our legislation. |
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Found this on the IPSC website
These are the first ten listed by number of memberships. If I am reading it right we are tied for 1st with the other six countries. There are thousands of USPSA shooters that are not IPSC shooters however I doubt there are IPSC shooters that are not USPSA. 1 Brazil 1 Canada 1 Germany 1 Greece 1 Norway 1 Philippines 1 United States 2 Italy 3 Australia 4 Russia Seems easy to believe that we dwarf the world shooting community. So we chose a rule set that fit us better. Quoted:
I had a huge reply comparing the two Production divisions, as well as Limited vs Standard, but lost it, apparently.
I would like to read it. I remember that IPSC production/standard can load their mags up but are very limited in what they can do to their guns. Sounds good to me. I think our production division has gotten a little too advanced in regards to gun mods |
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I had a huge reply comparing the two Production divisions, as well as Limited vs Standard, but lost it, apparently.
I would like to read it. I remember that IPSC production/standard can load their mags up but are very limited in what they can do to their guns. Sounds good to me. I think our production division has gotten a little too advanced in regards to gun mods They are much more restricted in what can be done (agian, look at our culture - Americans often mod the shit out of everything to begin with - just because we can). For example, refinishing is explicitly prohibited under IPSC Production rules unless it conforms exactly to the color and type of finish that the exact model came with from the factory. USPSA allows for any refinishing that does not offer a competitive advantage. However, they are unrestricted by the box (only a barrel length limit) and are unrestricted in actual equipment. Equipment placement, however, has the same restrictions. The lack of any prohibited equipment is one of the main reasons why recommendations for guns & gear is entirely different between USPSA Production and IPSC Production. ETA - Hey mods, we really do need this moved to the competition forum now. |
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We Americans use rules that suite our gun laws, and current gun trends. I don't like the gun classes in IPSC, so much so that I pulled out of the IPSC match to be held in Ohio this October. I was registered for the event before it changed from USPSA event to IPSC event. IPSC Nationals even. Don't care, don't like the rules. I shoot USPSA. Single Stack is about the only decent division - Limited is different for the sake of being different. I like the idea of L-10, but it could just as easily be S-10. And USPSA production is just stupid. How many IPSC shooters does Austrailia have?? Because we have a ton. I would honestly like to see the breakdown by country Limited ten was mostly for California which has a huge group of shooters, what is wrong with production??? I dont know the raw numbers but I would think we have more shooters in the US that shoot USPSA than a good chunk of the rest of the world added together. Country-by-country stats are not kept by IPSC - once you reach 2000 members, your region's annual fee doesn't increase and IPSC isn't interested in the total number of members you have. Roughly 200,000 shooters shoot IPSC world-wide, including within the States. There are roughly 75,000 pistol shooters in Australia, about half shoot IPSC. Quoted:
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And USPSA production is just stupid. Be kind enough to elaborate, please? Curious as well... I had a huge reply comparing the two Production divisions, as well as Limited vs Standard, but lost it, apparently.
I will make an effort to recompose it if this topic gets moved over to the IDPA/USPSA/IPSC forum, since it's not really appropriate here in 1911 Discussions anyway. And I'd just like to add that USPSA is more geared to the gun culture of the US moreso than just our legislation. Essentially, USPSA production is Double-Action Limited/Standard, allowing a boatload of changes including trigger jobs, aftermarket barrels and slides and so on. IPSC production allows you to use aftermarket sights, aftermarket mags, and add grip tape. That's it. Standard and Limited are fundamentally the same - but the box is a different size and in IPSC, you put the mag in the gun and stick both in the box, in USPSA, the gun is empty and the mag can only be 140mm. I don't mind either, really, but it would be nice for the Americans to follow the rest of the world. L-10 is another USPSA idea I like, along with Single Stack. There's mumbles of making a IPSC single stack, the only difference is that it wouldn't be limited to 1911s, allowing people to use Sig P220s and the like if they really wanted to. |
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Essentially, USPSA production is Double-Action Limited/Standard, allowing a boatload of changes including trigger jobs, aftermarket barrels and slides and so on. IPSC production allows you to use aftermarket sights, aftermarket mags, and add grip tape. That's it. Aftermarket barrels and slides are only allowed in USPSA Production if they exactly match the profile, size, and caliber of the parts from the exact model. More or less allowing replacement of worn-out parts with anything that matches exactly, regardless of actual manufacture. USPSA Production does allow most modifications which are wholly internal - but let's look at this for a minute. Many basic trigger jobs used on Production-type pistols involve some spring swapping and polishing. Now, what's to distinguish a new gun that's had a lightened mainspring and a few parts polished to an old, very used gun that has started to wear out its factory mainspring and has effectively self-polished due to extensive wear? What about a gun that's seen countless reload drills, and thus has a smoother - and even potentially slightly wider, depending on material - magwell? Should worn-out guns just be prohibited since they inherently can offer certain internal benefits over brand-new guns? Part of this again goes to the US gun culture - we mod the shit out of everything anyway. Some of the appeal of having Production is that is allows new shooters to come with what they have and still be relatively competitive. Here in the US, if we prohibited basic internal mods, then many new shooters would either have to reverse their mods or buy new completely-stock guns. Also, USPSA Production is current awaiting approval/publishing of a revised ruleset - this ruleset helps solidify the prohibitions on those unlisted modifications. Meanwhile, IPSC Production has no equipment restrictions (both have the same placement limits) and no magazine capacity limits. So you have people running the same race holsters in Production that they do in Standard and Modified, and a capacity race starts amongst the manufacturers. Yeah, that's totally not a big connection to the other divisions. Oh, and don't forget - if you want to krylon your Glock frame in purple, that's strictly prohibited in IPSC Production.  The refinishing rule is probably the single most ridiculous requirement in any of the practical shooting sports, IMO. USPSA Production has it right by simply prohibiting finishes that provide any advantage (i.e., no extra grippy or special super-low-friction finishes allowed).
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Standard and Limited are fundamentally the same - but the box is a different size and in IPSC, you put the mag in the gun and stick both in the box, in USPSA, the gun is empty and the mag can only be 140mm. I don't mind either, really, but it would be nice for the Americans to follow the rest of the world. There is no box for USPSA Limited - there is only the magazine size restriction. Major PF is also different - USPSA uses 165 for all divisions, while IPSC uses 160 for Open and 170 for the others. The biggest difference, IMO, is the lack of equipment restriction. Limited allows for unrestricted placement of holsters and magazine pouches, while Standard uses the "hip line" rule (which is used by SS in USPSA, and Production in both). |