[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Custom Work Not Requested (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 5/7/2009 1:39:27 PM EDT
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The short of it is I contacted a reputable 1911 smith and asked for 1,200 dollars worth of upgrades. I get the final bill today and he did 2K dollars worth of work. When I asked him why he did the additional work this was his response:
"Heres a run down on the extra items commonly done now on SF pistols so they dont have to be redone later when they break ; the issue slide stop breaks often, so a tool steel one was fitted. if we dont do it now, and it breaks, then add a new ss after finishinng, it does not match, and can not be blended without refinishing the whole pistol again new mag button holds the mags where they need to be to feed properly the mag well MSH was added as it fit better than a bevel, and the MSH had to be replaced anyway to install the new internal parts. new higher quality springs are required on SFs If you want reliability, you have to have good mags, so I added three plunger house was loose, so it had to be fitted and staked the hood cuts and observation port were already cut in all my match barrels, to I discounted those features, to get your project rolling without waiting 9 months for more barrels to be done. they are handy features to have the rear of the slide did not match frame so it had to be blended before refinish work, or it would look like hell" I had no idea he was going to do this extra work and have a problem with the extra 800 dollars I am being charged? What do you all think? |
| I wouldn't be happy...It is the same as if you took your car to have the oil the oil changed and they replaced your transmission without you asking....If he did it without jacking the cost I would still be slightly irritated and if he did try to charge you, f that noise. No matter what, I wouldn't pay a dollar more than the original deal |
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The short of it is I contacted a reputable 1911 smith and asked for 1,200 dollars worth of upgrades. I get the final bill today and he did 2K dollars worth of work. When I asked him why he did the additional work this was his response: "Heres a run down on the extra items commonly done now on SF pistols so they dont have to be redone later when they break ; the issue slide stop breaks often, so a tool steel one was fitted. if we dont do it now, and it breaks, then add a new ss after finishinng, it does not match, and can not be blended without refinishing the whole pistol again new mag button holds the mags where they need to be to feed properly the mag well MSH was added as it fit better than a bevel, and the MSH had to be replaced anyway to install the new internal parts. new higher quality springs are required on SFs If you want reliability, you have to have good mags, so I added three plunger house was loose, so it had to be fitted and staked the hood cuts and observation port were already cut in all my match barrels, to I discounted those features, to get your project rolling without waiting 9 months for more barrels to be done. they are handy features to have the rear of the slide did not match frame so it had to be blended before refinish work, or it would look like hell" I had no idea he was going to do this extra work and have a problem with the extra 800 dollars I am being charged? What do you all think? He should have contacted you first. If he doesn't make things right, I'd remind him that the pistol smithing business is built on word of mouth, and the internet exagerates that 100 fold, so... Some smiths today won't take on any work other than full house guns where they do address everything, it that's his policy, then he should have made that clear before agreeing to take on your project. |
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when i had some work done by Drake, he found some things that he thought could be improved, he called me and we discussed them. Some i agreed to, some i didn't, but we discussed and agreed upon the price. My gun arrived with the expected work and he got his expected money, we were both very happy with the transaction, (well I was anyway ). That is how it should work.
This is on an EB SF ? I've heard of very few, well none actually, slide stops "often" breaking, and were you having feeding problems before the mag button was changed out ? What internal parts required the binning of the existing MSH ? And SF's come with crappy springs...did you notice the back of slide/frame fit being off...all sounds well sketchy... So, who was the smith ? |
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Quoted: The short of it is I contacted a reputable 1911 smith and asked for 1,200 dollars worth of upgrades. I get the final bill today and he did 2K dollars worth of work. When I asked him why he did the additional work this was his response: "Heres a run down on the extra items commonly done now on SF pistols so they dont have to be redone later when they break ; the issue slide stop breaks often, so a tool steel one was fitted. if we dont do it now, and it breaks, then add a new ss after finishinng, it does not match, and can not be blended without refinishing the whole pistol again new mag button holds the mags where they need to be to feed properly the mag well MSH was added as it fit better than a bevel, and the MSH had to be replaced anyway to install the new internal parts. new higher quality springs are required on SFs If you want reliability, you have to have good mags, so I added three plunger house was loose, so it had to be fitted and staked the hood cuts and observation port were already cut in all my match barrels, to I discounted those features, to get your project rolling without waiting 9 months for more barrels to be done. they are handy features to have the rear of the slide did not match frame so it had to be blended before refinish work, or it would look like hell" I had no idea he was going to do this extra work and have a problem with the extra 800 dollars I am being charged? What do you all think? Reputable where, locally? Most smiths will call and let you know if there are other "issues" that need to be addressed. I'd be pissed. |
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With a lot of things the quote will have some play in it. IE it says the quote could be off 10 to 20% of the final cost. If it was within that I wouldn't really care as it is kinda expected. Generally speaking the higher end is to cover labor.
Without authorization I would be pissed if they tried to jack it up that much. I'd refuse to pay the difference and take them to small claims if they refused to return the pistol for the amount that was agreed too. |
I'd be beyond pissed. 
When I began discussions to have Bob Serva begin a new build we went step by step through every option and recommendation. He didn't push anything over another but made recommendations and explained the "why's" of it. He made sure that any changes after our conversations....he called first. These are traits of a reputable smith. Beyond the gunsmith skill set...its called good business. |
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The gun is a SA Mil-Spec. I sent him the following email after reading your responses:
"I appreciate you getting back to me with an explanation. I am not comfortable with how this transaction is taking place. Had you contacted me before the work was done I may feel different, but you're asking me to pay for work that I did not authorize. I mean no disrespect here, but I do not wish to pay for the extra work. The agreed upon balance was $1,335 of which I have paid $675, leaving a remaining balance of $660 before shipping." I will let you know how this turns out. As for now I will keep his name to myself. If he tries to burn me though, I'll spread the word. |
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Horsecrap. You BOTH agreed on a price and he broke the agreement without consulting you. Piss poor business practice IMHO. Some of the items sound "iffy". A good smith builds to YOUR specs, not his specs unless you are contacted. The additional work and cost would leave a sour taste in my mouth, especially if I was financially strapped by the additional amount.
That said, I agree with some of his reasons for some of the work, SAs springs DO suck but the cost to replace ALL of them wouldn't amount to more then $20 or so using quality Wolff springs. Some of the other parts aren't very expensive either, the total cost should have been WELL under $100 overall and thats with Name brand parts. |
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He should have contacted you for authorization before the bill exceeded your agreed price. If it was me, I'd tell the guy he just learned a lesson on how the business world operates and give him his 1200. That right there. Just to put it in perspective, you authorized $1,200 and he wants to charge toy 2k? He just helped himself to a 66% increase in pricing without your consent. If anybody did that to me with anything I'd be pissed. There is of course one problem, he's still got the pistol doesn't he? |
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I just got this reply to my email:
"Ok, I'll delete everything possible, but in my opinion, the pistol will not have proper reliability without the extras, and the base finish work is now done. This is why the work order says I reserve the right to make work order changes, that may affect costs. On SFs it is very common to replace additional parts. The colts are not such a problem. I strive to get things done right the first time. Skimping on the small stuff defeats the function of the main work, but its your call." |
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I just got this reply to my email: "Ok, I'll delete everything possible, but in my opinion, the pistol will not have proper reliability without the extras, and the base finish work is now done. This is why the work order says I reserve the right to make work order changes, that may affect costs. On SFs it is very common to replace additional parts. The colts are not such a problem. I strive to get things done right the first time. Skimping on the small stuff defeats the function of the main work, but its your call." Thats nice and all but you and he agreed on the work to be done and the cost of said work. 2K is a lot of work on a 1911 if the base pistol is supplied. For a few hundred bucks more then that, I bought both a very nice Les Baer and a Jim Clark Sr custom 1911. 2K pricing work had better be done by one of the "big names" in the 1911 build industry. |
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I just got this reply to my email: "Ok, I'll delete everything possible, but in my opinion, the pistol will not have proper reliability without the extras, and the base finish work is now done. This is why the work order says I reserve the right to make work order changes, that may affect costs. On SFs it is very common to replace additional parts. The colts are not such a problem. I strive to get things done right the first time. Skimping on the small stuff defeats the function of the main work, but its your call." WTF? Is he going to remove the parts that were not requested? So far I think you've handled this fairly well. Based on this last message though, I think its time to call him. |
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Sorry but now I see you needing to send it to another smith to get it to run right. Mark my words. The same "oh shit" thought just popped in my head too. 
No reputable smith would do this.  For what he is charging you, that 1911 had better run like a raped ape in the reliability area.
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I dont know, but Id be thinking of outing the guy. AFTER you get your piece back. Save the emails too. Anyhow thanks for the reminder. This. It's not so much about people wanting to create a shitstorm here, it's so that others can be aware before they send their money to him, only to have an extra couple hundred $'s worth of work they didn't ask for, 'tacked on'. I'd be pissed if I was in your shoes. Hundreds of dollars just tacked on that he expected you to pay, I mean shit if it didn't cure diseases and shoot rainbows when I got it back, I'd be irate. |
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I just got this reply to my email: "Ok, I'll delete everything possible, but in my opinion, the pistol will not have proper reliability without the extras, and the base finish work is now done. This is why the work order says I reserve the right to make work order changes, that may affect costs. On SFs it is very common to replace additional parts. The colts are not such a problem. I strive to get things done right the first time. Skimping on the small stuff defeats the function of the main work, but its your call." Thats a load of bullshit. I want to know what gun needs 800 bucks in extra work(on top of the 1200 already put into it) to make it run reliability. It would be one thing for him to say "Hey I found some extra parts that needed to be changed, it raised the price 100 bucks". It is another thing to say hey I'm almost doubling what I told you. |
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I'd tell him that he was getting the balance of the agreed-upon price. If the gun didn't function after his failure to make it work with the original specs, I'd take him to small claims court for the original price, since he's emailed you, practically admitting that the gun will not work right when he's done with it. If it worked before and doesn't afterwards, it will be his fault.
Edit: And I can guaran-damn-tee you that that gun ain't gonna be right, now.
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What is with so many 1911 "experts" that feel they need to replace everything but the frame and slide to get a pistol to run properly?  Good luck on this one. If it doesn't work reliably you know he is going to blame it on you for having him remove the "needed" parts. |
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This clown needs that gun shoved up his ass.
30 or so years ago, Bill Wilson and his main man Bud Coley built me a Master Combat on a 70 Series Colt. There was no internet and calls were expensive but Bill consulted with me via either letter or the phone on every change we made...and we did make a few. That is how you do business. (Yes, I still have that pistol and yes, it still runs smooth as silk) |
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I dont know, but Id be thinking of outing the guy. AFTER you get your piece back. Save the emails too. Anyhow thanks for the reminder. This. It's not so much about people wanting to create a shitstorm here, it's so that others can be aware before they send their money to him, only to have an extra couple hundred $'s worth of work they didn't ask for, 'tacked on'. I'd be pissed if I was in your shoes. Hundreds of dollars just tacked on that he expected you to pay, I mean shit if it didn't cure diseases and shoot rainbows when I got it back, I'd be irate. Post his name, send him a link to this thread and he can post a rebuttal if he so chooses. if any posts get out of hand, the mods can surely address the individual posters to keep things in check. |
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I got this reponse to my email:
"Ok, but I dont want you to feel you are being taken advantage of. Most of my customers keep coming back to me because they can get the work done right the first time, and they know I will do anything additional that is required to address all the issues.. Most clients prefer me to get the work done in a timely manner rather than waste work time on the phone trying to track people done. Since you are a first time client, I will leave all the work done as is now, and call us square for $500 additional if that works better for you. If not, I will strip it down at your request". And here was my email back to him: "Initially I did feel like I was getting taken advantage of. I did my research when I was looking for a Smith. After reading your book I felt we agreed on several issues and that's why I chose you to do the work. When you wrote "the pistol will not have proper reliability without the extras" I was again worried that after spending almost 1,700 dollars I would not have a reliable smooth shooting pistol. I am going to stick with my original order and the hope that the addition of your (blank) and (blank) Package will be a great addition to the SA platform". |
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It's perfectly possible for a qualified, competent 'smith to be a clueless asshole when it comes to customer interaction.
That said, in this case, I'm pretty confident things will work out; seems both parties are being reasonable about it. But I'd edit a few clues out of your post above if you want to keep his identity confidential. |
| Deleting the add-ons will make your gun look like shit, being everything is fitted to and finished together. I'd pay him the $500 and never do business with him again. Also, try to find a reputable gunsimth in your area. Face to face contact prevents this kind of thing. |
| I am kinda with the majority here thinking what is done, is done. Don't de-construct a gun for $$. Tell him that you are dissapointed in that you spent good money that you could afford and that was taxing enough. Then agree to pay the least you can for what he has already done and then be happy that you have the best gun he can build. You chose him for a reason and you want to be proud of your pistol when you get it back. 6 months from now the money saved or spent will be meaningless and the gun will be a reminder of his best work or something not quite right. For the rest of us, lessons learned. |
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It's perfectly possible for a qualified, competent 'smith to be a clueless asshole when it comes to customer interaction. That said, in this case, I'm pretty confident things will work out; seems both parties are being reasonable about it. But I'd edit a few clues out of your post above if you want to keep his identity confidential. I think he is giving the rest of us a clue. However, my google-fu must be weak as I turned up no hits. I think I'd offer the 'smith $300-400 for the "extras" and call it a day. Best of luck, man. |
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Wow, that's some BS he's feeding you there. Think of the pistol you could have bought new for the $2k this guy is wanting to upgrade your Mil-Spec. As said above, calling and telling you it's done and it's $100 more would be one thing. It sounds like he's got himself covered to an extent because of the work order stating that he can make changes, but I would think that would be limited to reasons like availability of parts or structural problems with the firearm. If he's going to add things because all Springers need those changes that's the kind of thing he should be telling you up front. I'm just assuming that you called him before sending your pistol to him and told him what you've got and what you're wanting.
It sounds to me like you did the right thing the way you handled it, but I agree that you're going to have some issues now and need to take it in to another smith. It'll probably come back looking like crap but I wouldn't give this guy another cent. Calling about that amount of money is just common courtesy. I'd be interested in some pics and an AAR once you get it back. |
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I'd probably pay the extra $500 and get my pistol back in hopes that it will function properly. Once I got the gun back into my possession I'd be sure that he understood that he would never get anymore of my business, nor would I recommend his services to anyone else.
This guy is NOT a reputable gunsmith. |
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I work in a field where I often receive requests for hardware upgrades. Often once I get into the job I'll find that the original parts may need replacement if the customer truly wants his hardware to function at 100%.
When that happens, I contact the customer. If for any reason I decided to continue without customer consent (can't imagine why) I'd charge the customer the cost of the hardware and my labor would be free. That way the customer is getting what they want at a fair price and they will become a repeat customer. I'd ask for an invoice with the cost of the hardware on it, verify that the hardware prices are fair (how much you would pay if you bought them online) and then offer him the original $1200 + the cost of parts. That way you get what you want and he's only out his labor, not actual money he may have spent. Figure the extra parts will cost $300 TOPS. |
| Thanks for all your help. Instead of the original 1300 we have agreed on 1600 including shipping. All the extras are included and nothing will be taken off. You guys were very helpful. This was my first time going to the net with a complaint and I appreciate the support. I will post pictures when the pistols back in my hands. |
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edit: Posted too late. Already resolved. This is now OBE. Thanks to the OP for sharing what can happen in working with smiths.
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– Wow. The arrogance of your gunsmith is astounding. - If he is an expert then he knew from the start that the 'necessary' $800 would be added to the bill. This is called 'bait and switch'. - His contract does not allow him to do whatever he wishes and charge you whatever he wishes. We are not talking about fixing discovered damage in an expeditious way which is what it sounds like that clause he is quoting refers to. The 'most of my clients want me to..' argument is whitewash BS. - I would post this issue over at the 'Louder Than Words' website where a lot of competent gunsmiths live and get their reaction. I have a list of features and costs with the gunsmith building my custom BHP that represents a contract. I will meet my obligations under that contract and he will meet his. Period. What would I do? I would indicate that I want to original work performed for the original price agreed to and I want the gun back without blemishes and in perfect working order. If there is 'in anticipation of' reliability work to be done then that is your call. However, you are better off taking it to someone else. I have recommendations of gunsmiths that communicate and have integrity if you would like them. |