Posted: 6/21/2008 6:56:48 AM EDT
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Well, we often do this to death but here goes. In a recent, now properly locked thread, there came the discussion of reliability in sub $1k 1911s. I guess I need to understand what some mean by reliability???? I've own several 1911s and for the last 10 years have carried a box stock Colt 1991A1 as my duty weapon. I have done nothing to it at all. Not a spring replaced, not a trigger job, not anything. It has had a steady diet of Wolf, WWB, Remington , and any variety of Federal Hydroshock or Rem Golden Saber, ( shooting up last years duty ammo ), and I have never had a failure to feed or fire. I carry the original Colt mag in the gun and 4 MecGar mags on my belt. They all get rotated through during training or qualification. In the last 10 years, the only way I've been able to get this pistol to malfunction has been to put an empty somewhere in one of the mags ( required for training). In those cases, it feeds the empties. The pistol is accurate as it came from the factory, certainly more accurate than I can shoot, and I have not missed the target with it. Can someone please enlighten me as to the failures you are having with yours so as to leave you concerned about accuracy, or reliability problems with factory guns? This is my third bone stock factory Colt and I have never experienced these issues. |
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i've had 2 springfield's ,a colt and a kimber both springfields had ftf stove pipe issues .i returned them to the factory with little sucsess the V-10 still jammed (stove piped) the colt may have ftf 6 times in 10 years the kimber also had feed issues.i no longer carry 1911's . for me it seems like when i have an issue with a pistol i can no longer count on it as a reliable weapon to protect the family. |
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As much as people bitch about cosmetics with Colts, [and I completely understand] they make a pretty darn reliable 1911 up to the point where people who don't understand how they work start to dick with them. The new ramp cuts on the BBL really helps to feed the newer hollowpoints also. I know people love to hate Colt but I have had far FAR fewer issues with reliablity with them them most other off the shelf 1911s. Biggest issue is the plethora of add ons, accessories, wonder parts, doo dads and gimmicks and the ability of a typical male to stick them in it without understanding what they might affect. They are the holly double pumpers of the gun world. For every person that can make changes for the better, there are 20 that screw it up instead. Also, people LOVE to buy crappy cheapass garbage mags for them, then bitch when they work like, well, CRAP. |
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Two Springer TRPs. No issues other than a friend broke the magazine release on one by trying to remove it as if it was held in by a spring. That was user ignorance but it was a MIM'ed part never-the-less. Replaced it with a Wilson tactical. Could I trust my life with them? Probably not. I don't trust my life with anything, but I have degrees of trust, and it just boils down to pre-MIM revolvers being probably more reliable than anything else on average - even a $3,000 custom 1911. |
So the issue may be taking a factory gun and trying to turn it into something it isn't, then wondering why it is not what it was?? I can't imagine buying cheaper mags, at the time I bought the mec gars, they were $8 each at CDNN. I can't imagine much cheaper than that and they are top of the heap given they make OEM for just about everyone out there. Again, I am struck with these various reports. I know we have many of our guys who carry Kimber or Springfield without issue as well. Hell, we got one guy carrying an RIA and he has had no issues either. |
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The design is such that a certain amount of fitting is REQUIRED when replacing certain parts. I'd bet that the MAJORITY of 1911 parts changers don't understand exactly what needs to be done to change them correctly. A barrel is a perfect example. They buy one, toss it in, put a tight BBL bushing on it then complain when it "jams". The only thing they will say is that it "locks up really really tight" now, but they don't understand that without fitting, that tight lock up is actually causing stresses and wedging that are NOT allowing it to operate as intended. |
| I attribute most of the malfunctions to the shooter. As an Instructor I've heard countless students complain that their lack of accuracy was the gun, the malfunctions were caused by the gun, the gun is a POS. Funny thing is 99% of the time when I shoot their gun it hits where I aim and runs fine. |
Yes, this was my observation as well, when I ran the Firearms program at a larger metro police agency. Again though, it does not explain why someone would only trust a very expensive 1911 but is perfectly satisfied with other designs out of the box without modifications. Perhaps FX is right, it's not the out of the box pistol that is the issue, but the bubba'd pistol that had so called drop in parts installed. |
I've fixed lot's of Bubba's work. 
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It's been my experiance that a lot of folks will start replacing parts in their M1911A1's right after they but it and well before they shoot it. Most of them know little or nothing about customizing the pistol and to them I say, buy a pistol already setup to meet your requirements or pay a pro to do it for you. That being said, my stock SA Mil-Spec works perfectly fine as is... |
Were you using these pistols in absolute stock configuration with factory mags and name brand factory ammo? |
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The OP states his stock '91 runs perfect and has not replaced so much as a spring. I'm sure this is true with many owners but i have seen many a 1911, including Colts, not function properly out of the box and through standard breakin. If I had been shooting the same springs for 10 years, they'd have many thousands of rounds of wear and I would not expect that weapon to function reliably. There is no getting around the science, parts wear and need to be replaced. Then again, I have seen duty weapons go 10 years without so much as a thousand rounds through them. I have a 1911 made in 1919 and the springs haven't been replaced in a lot more than 10 years but it only digests 100 rounds a year. Just replaced the recoil spring in my S70 after 3 jams in one session. The weapon had 2k functional rounds on the stock spring. The OP would be well-advised to replace the springs in his duty weapon. His life depends on it. Been drinking the Kool-Aid for 40 years and will always "tune" a box stock Colt. I will spend about $500 for extra work on a functional 1911 so I expect to have $1200-1300 invested. I have introduced many a new enthusiast to the virtues of the 1911, but Colt has not always been the best value. It's possible to purchase a reliable 1911 for less than a grand but you really don't know until after you've purchased and shot the piece. Most dealers frown on disassembling a brand new firearm for meticulous inspection and not all possible issues can be determined visually. I've given up on the consideration of a consensus opinion. There's a market for the budget guns and a market for the factory semi-customs. Expectations will be high and disappointments many. There are those who understand the platform and the satisfaction a well-maintained and tuned 1911 brings |
| My springs are not due for round count replacement for another year or so. Honestly, I shoot this pistol to qualify semi annually, for practice, I use a .22lr conversion due to cost. It has been very effective for me to use this method. Now if I could just find .22lr replacement springs without having to deal with Ceiner and his $10 shipping for a few springs I'd be good. |
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I have 4 Colts. 1911 (US Property) that had one FTFeed many years ago - bulged case from seating a tipped seating. Combat Commander - never had a single issue (you can load 8 empty cases in the mag and it will hand cycle every one of them through the gun) Series 80 SS - no issues so far but it only has a few boxes through it Series 70 - dents the cases but no other issues. Just acquired a Springfield 1911A1 and a Para Ordnance P14 - no experience with them yet. |
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I have been lucky with all my Colts in that I have had very few issues and those were with a used pistol. It was cleared up with a new slide stop and sear spring. The mods I have had done beyond replacing non-adjustable sights and grips have been done by more than competent 'smiths (Bob Miller and a local man) and were done for how I wanted the pistol to look and for reliability piece of mind. If you like box stock 1911s then "more power to ya" but my 1911s are as much a hobby as a defense against the "bad guys". YMMV |
This thread was more along the lines of dispelling the myth that 1911s are unreliable while other types of pistols have some inherent reliability that is not present in the 1911 design. We seem to have found in this thread that those reporting reliability issues had in fact been working with modified pistols or as reported ammo issues. Please for the others posting later, do not consider bad ammo as a basis for the pistol's reliability. All pistols are unreliable with bad ammo. |
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I think that the "unreliableness" of the 1911 is just internet talk and not worth buying in to. My personal experience with A LOT of rounds downrange a multitude of 1911s is that they work VERY reliably. They've been just as good as any other design, be it XD, Glock, Beretta, Hi-Power, etc. Are there lemons? Sure - the 1911 is made by just about every gun manufacturer and at prices from $300 to $4k. But I've haven't seen the horrors that I'm supposed to from what I hear on the internet. I should have had lots of problems and parts breakages in the tens of thousands of rounds that I have downrange with my 1911s, but I don't. They just work. Don't believe everything you read -- and definitely don't believe much that you read on the internet. |
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I have had first-hand experiences with many bone-stock 1911s not being reliable. I got rid of the first S70 I owned when, after 2 years, it still stove-piped. It was also picky with mags while my other Colt 1917 vintage (I had a 1917 & 1919, there's a blonde running around somewhere out there with my 1917) ate all ammo through all mags. I didn't know then what I know now or I'd still have that beautiful blue 70. I read about failures with new guns all the time on this forum. All the issues with CS when they send the weapon back to the factory. There have been many issues - extractors, ejectors, loose sights, misfit barrels, links... the list goes on. I buy a new 1911, shoot a few boxes, then send it to my smith for the tweaks I want. I have had function issues that were resolved with minor adjustment and fitting, or the replacement of a small part like an extractor. Then GTG. I haven't had to send a firearm back and hope issues are resolved the first time. The way I see it is every factory has a bunch of conscientious workers and a few duds. Some people get guns built by duds. I prefer Colts for 1911s but have seen many I wouldn't buy. |
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The only real failures with my two Colts were magazine-related (defective follower and a weak spring, in separate instances). I also had what could technically be called "malfunctions" when I was getting my Gov't tuned to my handloads (swapping recoil springs). But those were entirely expected during that range session. Both have had bone-stock internals while I have shot them (the Commander is currently getting a full workup at Miller Custom). The only mods were different grips on both, with a S&A magwell, extended thumb safety, and drop-in beavertail on the Gov't as well. |
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Back in the day when I was shooting IDPA I initially shot a Kimber Compact CDP followed by Kimber Compact SS followed by another Kimber Compact CDP. Probably had a bit over 5k round count through the combo of the three. From the day I pulled them out of the box until the day I sold them, I never had a single MALF of any kind. Completely stock. The last gun I shot in IDPA was a Kimber Gold Combat. All kinds of problems from day one. Had a 'smith tweak & tune on it a bit. Finally, one of the CDP Masters in our club deigned to look at my gun. He watched me run a stage where I had two problems. He ran the stage with my gun right behind me without a single problem. Told me I was holding the gun wrong or that I was limp-wristing. Turns out, one of our club experts had turned me on to the "high hand" grip at the same time I started shooting this gun. One problem was that I wasn't engaging the grip safety; fixed with a grip safety with a bump. The other was I was riding the slide stop. Finally, I've picked up a Colt Series 70 repro (sold after about 250 rounds) and a Colt New Agent (50 rounds). Neither have hiccupped on me. ETA: 95% of what I shoot is WWB Q4170. The rest are various flavors of the HSLD JHP from Winchester or Corbon. Mags have been Wilson Combat, Novak and Kimber/Colt factory. |
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It seems to me that we see high reliability in factory guns with good ammo. Certainly on par with anything else on the market. We seem to understand that all manufacturers of anything do from time to time turn out something that should not have passed QC but this is the same for all brands and models. I'm glad we posted this here as it might make some heads explode in GD among those who seem to favor other models citing reliability as their primary reason. It seems that we can trace the vast majority of the problems we encountered in this thread, directly to bad mags or bad ammo. I think one exception that might have been a poor fit issue in what is supposed to be a tight gun. |
I've had pretty good luck with 1911's in general. Most have been reliable. I posted in the "other" thread you reference above. My point is that I don't want to depend on a MIM filled production 1911 for protection. I have NO ISSUE what so ever with MIM in my training/range guns. MIM is an excellent process, but MIM parts can and will fail with no warning. So will tool steel, but it's less likely. That is my main reason for carrying 1911's that are all tool steel, semi-customs or warmed over production guns. It's no so much a reliability issue, it's a durability issue for me. I do have production 1911's with a lot rounds through them and they haven't failed or broken parts. I just feel better carrying one with all tool steel that a 'smith has assembled, not a worker on some line. If the production gun (or any gun for that matter) has went 1000+ rounds with no issues I wouldn't worry about it too much. Bad mags and bad ammo will choke the best 1911 out there. Keep the springs new and use good ammo and all should be well in the 1911 world! |