Posted: 10/31/2007 11:32:53 AM EDT
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I did a quick search and read the FAQ's and didn't come up with the answer. What are the differences between the 1911 and 1991 pistols? By just looking at them I do not see any obvious external differences. I am thinking about about getting a 1991A1 Commander but I wanted to know what the differences were before doing anything so I can make an informed decision. thanks, dj |
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I am not aware of what Colt was making in the late 80s as far as Commanders go but unlike the 1991 Commander the Pre-80s and the early 80s Commanders had short triggers, arched MSHs, and a much more attractive, albeit (possibly) less comfortable grip safety when it came to shooting. Colt also has added "improved" sights, which help a good deal with sight acquisition over the A1s. They did a great job aesthetically with a No-frills package IMO, but I could not stomach that large solid trigger on the Commander (for some reason it doesn't bother me on a 5" 1911). But that would be an opportunity to replace with a nice 3-hole aluminum (of course with the trigger job to accompany) and perhaps a beavertail to finish things off. |
I'm holding one a 1991A1 Commander. Stock everything. Used with very minor surface handling marks. The safety seems very positive and the slide is stiff. The trigger sucks. Sorry to hijack the thread but the price is $500. Should I get it? |
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A tight slide is a definite plus. As for a crap trigger, that is completely unsurprising to me. Colt makes a very good trigger and a very shitty one, and you just have to pull it on the gun you want to know what you are getting. You find these things NIB all day long for $675 on Gunsamerica, which means you can surerly do a little better than that for new. Is the $100-$150 price savings justified by handling marks? YOU should be the better judge. I would say the price is reasonable. It's no deal of a lifetime though, and if you passed on it, you would not be hard pressed to find a similar deal. If you went for it you would not be gettig ripped off either. And that shitty trigger is the opportunity that's knocking to yank that fugly trigger out of there and put in something proper. $175 or so later, you have what others pay for a NIB Commander, but yours is one of the fewer with a nice tight slide, and your trigger looks and feels 5X better than the crap that's riding on their's. So, make the call. |
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That pic is a nice presentation and all, but both of those weapons are well-customized and feature similar amenities that neither model of Colt would have i.e. checkered flat MSH, improved trigger, hammer, beavertail, and magwell. Actually the differences between a stock old roll mark 1991 (discontinued) could have had even more differences with its brother, including plastic/nylon trigger and MSH. It would be safe to say (as evident from the photo) that "if you put your own finishing touches into the product" the end result will be glaringly similar. The only appreciable difference between a 1991 and a Series 80 1911 bearing the same quality aftermarket parts would only be the rollmarks. |
I know that no one here could have possibly figured that out.
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thanks for the replys. So a 1991A1 is a NO FRILLS low cost version of he 1911. what changes were made to make it a low cost version. so far the people I have talked with haven't had an answer for me. Again, looking at them I don't see anything that stands out different between them. thanks again, dj |
| The initial 1991A1 (ORM or Old roll mark) was the original bargain colt. It had very simple and ugly (IMO) rollmarks, as well as a plastic-nylon trigger, and MSH IIRC. I think they had a higher MIM parts count as well, and some very cheap grips. Trigger and grip safety were less than stellar as well, and I believe the sights were very rudimentary GI style. Colt had no choice but to raise the price on the 1991s but someone was thinking that day and opted for a facelift to the 1991 NRM (New Roll Mark). This had the "improved GI sight" wooden grips (for the blued at least) No more plastic, and a nicer roll mark. If you want a "classic" approximation of a Commander then you have to get a 1991 because their only other offering is the XSE type with the modern style and features. The difference between any "Classic" Commander/Government 1911/1991 and a modern XSE stlye is readily apparent. |
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It depends on what your definition of "1911" is. I'll assume you're talking about the generally accepted definition of a 1911, that is, one which more or less adheres to the pattern that Colt and others have been making since WWII. The 1991 is a 1911 with the addition of the firing pin safety assembly, which is commonly referred to as the Series 80 parts (because that's the Colt they made their first appearance in). The frame and slide are modified for these parts to fit. Here's a quick and dirty chronology of the Colt Government series, post WWII, that will probably make the real Colt collectors cringe as they read it. 1946-1970: Colts were made the same way they had been since before the war, in the quintessential 1911 pattern. These today are called "pre-series 70" guns. 1971: Colt introduces a finger collet bushing as an "improvement" on the solid bushing. They begin stamping their slides with the huge SERIES 70 rollmark, thus creating the Series 70 line. 1983: Colt introduces the firing pin safety and changes the rollmark to SERIES 80. Series 70 guns are discontinued. 1990s: Colt introduces the "Enhanced" line, featuring stuff like the elongated hammer, beavertail, forward slide serrations, lowered & flared ejection port, etc. Still series 80 guns, and are marked as such. They also introduce a budget version called the 1991A1, which is a standard Series 80, but with a cheap finish, cheap grips, and some plastic parts. These are sometimes referred to as the Old Roll Mark (ORM) guns. 2000-something: Colt decides to reproduce their coveted Series 70 guns. They lack the collet bushing and the firing pin safety, and have the old rollmarks. About the same time they discontinue the budget 1991A1, and replace it with what is basically a standard Series 80, with a plastic mainspring housing and new rollmarks. These are the NRM guns, and they are not marked 1991 anywhere, so it's something of a misnomer, IMHO, to call them that. This is the current state of affairs. Of course Colt made a bunch of other models for decades such as the Gold Cup, Commander, Officer, and lately, the Defender, CCO, and a bushel basket full of other slightly different models that defy description. About the only rule of thumb is that the Series 80-marked guns will always have the firing pin safety installed. |
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I have owned a couple of the ORM 91's and they have all been good pistols. I am not particularly enamored of the series 80 internal safety but the guns I have have worked quite well. I sent one off the the Action Works for their Tactical Street Package and it gets alot of carry duty. It is a very good, basic pistol. I never found the roll marks all that distasteful, I am glad in a way that others do as it keeps the values on those guns low! I've bought 5 1991's for well under $500, two for under $350 in fact. |
Back in 91-92 the 1991A1 could be bought brand new for around $350. All of the ones I handled had plastic triggers, plastic mainspring housings, plastic GI-style guide rods, plastic grips, and rough finishes. They made excellent platforms for building a custom pistol since the plastic items are pieces that would typically be replaced in any custom build. My uncle bought one back in 92, or so. He had the trigger replaced, hammer spur bobbed a bit, new msh, guide rod, trigger job, barrel bushing, and sights. It's been a decent, reliable carry gun for the past 15 years. |
I never have seen that. My 1991 ORM had a metal guide rod. |
I have heard of these in Wilsons and Colts. They were created on the "shok buff" principle where the part was degradable and expendable (replace the spring guide every 3000-5000 to reduce wear on the weapon. the merits/pitfalls of the "Shok Buff" principle aside, people flipped out in ignorance and complained that Colt/Wilson lost their freaking minds and went on the cheap. Rather than explain how it worked, Colt dropped the guides and Wilson offered free replacements with steel. This is my recollection of events, at least. |
Colt has done some really strange things when it comes to parts and model make up. I wasn't doubting you, just surprised by Colt again. 
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I've heard that from some long-time Colt dealers. One dealer complained about ordering 3 of the same pistol, and having 2 come in with one style of trigger and the third one having a different trigger. |
| That is a HUGE pet peeve of mine that happens to this day (I noticed a few things with S70 reissues). I can half abide by the "transitional" runs, where they are using up the remainders in their new line, like the S70-80s back in the day, but a blind grab out of the parts bin is just slop work and it says a lot about an outfit's prestige and reputation. |